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Thread: CC/OC in Indian owned establishments?

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    CC/OC in Indian owned establishments?

    Something I didn't eve think about, I was told that all Indian owned establishments, smoke shop, gas stations, and the like are all considered federal buildings. I guess this keeps us from carrying because they are doing business with the public.
    Anyone have any I site on this?

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    Re: CC/OC in Indian owned establishments?

    I work in an Native American owned casino and it is considered federal property, thus carry is prohibited. As for smoke shops and gas stations, I am not sure. I will ask tribal police and see what they say.

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    Regular Member Robert318's Avatar
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    I recently inquired to my lawyers about a sign posted outside a job site that was an Indian nation owned sign that said no firearms, so my question to the lawyer that returned my call was what about the parking lot exclusion from prohibition and he answered with Indians are a soveriegn nation and that they can do what they want. So if they are sovereign how then is their land federal and if their land is federal how then do they not have to follow the law when it clearly states that no federal or government shall establish a rule prohibiting from the storing of firearms in a vehicle in a parking lot?

    TITLE 21 1277 UNLAWFUL CARRY IN CERTAIN PLACES

    B. For purposes of paragraphs 1, 2, 3, 5 and 6 of subsection A of this section, the prohibited place does not include and specifically excludes the following property:
    1. Any property set aside for the use or parking of any vehicle, whether attended or unattended, by a city, town, county, state, or federal governmental authority,

    Also arent the only lawful casinos in oklahoma have to be Indian owned, which would mean that if the Indian nation has a policy of no firearms that our permits and our laws mean nothing on thier land.

    If anyone can answer please do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptnAwesem View Post
    I work in an Native American owned casino and it is considered federal property, thus carry is prohibited.
    "Considered" by whom, exactly?

    Tribal property is owned by the tribal government, not the federal government. It is tribal, not federal.

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    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    Tribal lands are held in trust by the Federal by Indian Affairs...much like the title to your home (if you have a mortgage) by the bank that holds your mortgage. The Federal government does not hold title to tribal land, the tribe does (or, in some cases, the individual in the case of an individual allotment)

    OK, Can you carry, openly or concealed on Tribal land...totally up to the tribal government, was before SB1743, still is. Tribal law only applies to members of the tribe, but when you are a guest on tribal land you need to know what kind of agreements the tribal government has made with state/county their reservation is located in.

    Some tribes choose to recognize their state's license to carry, some do not. Some tribal LE has Law Enforcement rights equal to non-tribal LE when encountering a non-tribal member that is violating state law on tribal property, some do not. You really need to read the tribal law for that particular place. You can probably find those tribal laws on the net.

    Our local tribe requires permission from the tribal council to carry on tribal land, except area's that are open to the general public (like a highway, gas station, etc). Now this is only true for the Colville Conferated tribes, on the Colville Reservation. Other tribes do it differently...like the Warm Springs tribe restricts tribal members, but follows State law for everyone else, even on tribal land...but then the Warm Springs tribe has a huge resort they run on their property too....

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    I carried openly into my local Indian Smoke Shop.Had a great conversation with the owner/operator."I've got guns here so I dont see a problem with customers having theirs"he said.As for being against tribal law?He had never heard anything about it as long as he'd been in business.

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    Regular Member okiebryan's Avatar
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    I don't think smoke shops are the same as casino properties. I'm sure that the casinos are on land held in federal trust. I could be wrong, but I don't think the smoke shops are on trust land.

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    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by okiebryan View Post
    I don't think smoke shops are the same as casino properties. I'm sure that the casinos are on land held in federal trust. I could be wrong, but I don't think the smoke shops are on trust land.
    I would be very surprised if a smoke shop was not on trust land. If it was on normal deeded commercial property they would have to abide by all state law, and pay state property taxes...trust land, no property tax, tribal law...at least that is the way it works here.

    I used to own a large piece of property outside Sedro-Woolley, WA. There was a section of "stump ranch" (property that had been recently clearcut) next door. The Upper Skagit Tribe purchased the property and immediately put it in trust as part of their Reservation...all about tax liability. Any property owned by a treaty Indian can request that property be placed in trust so it will be removed from the state local real estate tax base (as a minimum).

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    Regular Member Gary S's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by okiebryan View Post
    I don't think smoke shops are the same as casino properties. I'm sure that the casinos are on land held in federal trust. I could be wrong, but I don't think the smoke shops are on trust land.
    From what i understand, any place that the Indians have, be it a smoke shop or casino, it is Indian property and there laws. I also understood that if, for example, i was on Indian property the American police could not stop or arrest me for any reason. Also during my safety class for my license we touched base on that and its my understanding, no guns or weapons allowed in casinos, period, but it is ok to store them in your car in there parking lot while you go inside and donate your money.

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    Regular Member cbxer55's Avatar
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    Casinos are a moot point anyhow. Even CCing, it is against the law to carry in a place of gambling, IIRC. Just do not do business with any place that goes against our freedoms. It's their loss.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cbxer55 View Post
    Just do not do business with any place that goes against our freedoms. It's their loss.
    This is truth. I do not support those who deal against me or reject me. My money walks.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    Regular Member okiebryan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hermannr View Post
    I would be very surprised if a smoke shop was not on trust land. If it was on normal deeded commercial property they would have to abide by all state law, and pay state property taxes...trust land, no property tax, tribal law...at least that is the way it works here.

    I used to own a large piece of property outside Sedro-Woolley, WA. There was a section of "stump ranch" (property that had been recently clearcut) next door. The Upper Skagit Tribe purchased the property and immediately put it in trust as part of their Reservation...all about tax liability. Any property owned by a treaty Indian can request that property be placed in trust so it will be removed from the state local real estate tax base (as a minimum).
    Oklahoma is a weird duck about this stuff. 1/2 of Oklahoma were sovereign Indian nations before statehood. After the 1986 federal court decision, they got to be sovereign nations again within the State. It's weird. I don't think that smoke shops necessarily have to be on trust land.

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    Regular Member okiebryan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cbxer55 View Post
    Casinos are a moot point anyhow. Even CCing, it is against the law to carry in a place of gambling, IIRC. Just do not do business with any place that goes against our freedoms. It's their loss.
    The law says "para-mutuel gambling" and this is strictly horse racing. Not casino gambling. However, I'm pretty sure all the casinos in Oklahoma are covered under federal laws against carrying, since they are on trust land. I wouldn't do it. I have CC'd into the truckstop at Firewind many times. Never OC, I don't want to risk it in case I'm wrong.

    IANAL and I don't like the idea of jail.
    Last edited by okiebryan; 11-11-2012 at 02:03 AM.

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    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by okiebryan View Post
    The law says "para-mutuel gambling" and this is strictly horse racing. Not casino gambling. However, I'm pretty sure all the casinos in Oklahoma are covered under federal laws against carrying, since they are on trust land. I wouldn't do it. I have CC'd into the truckstop at Firewind many times. Never OC, I don't want to risk it in case I'm wrong.

    IANAL and I don't like the idea of jail.
    There is no FEDERAL law on carry of firearms on Indian Trust lands of any sort...they are NOT FEDERAL property...they belong to the tribe, or the individual tribal member and are covered by Tribal law.

    If there is a ban against carry in a casino that is on trust property, it will be a tribal ban, not a federal ban...and if carry is allowed, and a permit is required,or not, it will be tribal law, not federal law.

    If you want to know what the Tribe allows, or does not allow, look at their tribal law...it is probably online. You might sart looking here: http://thorpe.ou.edu/

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    Regular Member Robert318's Avatar
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    Good news

    I sent the Delaware nation that OKOCA business letter via email. I recently had to visit their casino in Hinton Oklahoma, and noticed they had taken down the no guns sign. I'm not sure if they had one on the door or not because I did not have to go in the building. But apparently they listened to the letter.
    Stay safe and God bless.

    Everyone will hate you because of me.
    But not a hair of your head will perish.
    Stand firm, and you will win life.
    (Luke 21:17-19 NIV)

    "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin

    "The God who gave us life, gave us liberty at the same time; the hand of force may destroy, but cannot disjoin them.",
    "No freeman shall be debarred the use of arms."Thomas Jefferson

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    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary S View Post
    From what i understand, any place that the Indians have, be it a smoke shop or casino, it is Indian property and there laws. I also understood that if, for example, i was on Indian property the American police could not stop or arrest me for any reason. Also during my safety class for my license we touched base on that and its my understanding, no guns or weapons allowed in casinos, period, but it is ok to store them in your car in there parking lot while you go inside and donate your money.
    Some of your understanding is correct, some is not, and some may not be depending on what tribe and their individual tribal agreement with the state they are in.

    Yes, I would assume any native enterprise would be on BIA trust land. Control of what goes on their land is up to the tribe.

    No, if you are on tribal land, and you are not a tribal member, depending on the agreement with the state...the tribal police may or may not be able to arrest you. You cannot be charged with violating tribal law, but you may be charged with any applicable state law. again, dependent of tribal/state agreement, the tribal police may call the state police to come get you and charge you with whatever state law you may have violated, or the trible police, assuming they have state LE privilages, may take you to the state/local lockup and tehre turn you over to the local authorities to be charged.

    For purposes of any carry on tribal land...the easiest way to look at it is: It is their private property, and like any other private property holder, they can make whatever rules they want. So, with permission from the tribal council, you can carry anywhere they will allow..with out permission...you cannot.

    Example: If the Tribe does not allow carry into a casino...you carry into that casino? What law would you be arrested for? State law: Trespass. Tribal law...if you are not a member of the tribe you cannot be charged under tribal law, if you are a member of the tribe, you can get charged under tribal law.

    If you petitioned the Tribal council for permission to carry in the casino, they may or may not allow...but it is their perogative
    Last edited by hermannr; 11-22-2012 at 09:24 PM.

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    Regular Member sharkey's Avatar
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    Tribal police can arrest you for committing an offense on their land. If that nation outlaws gun possession and you're carrying good luck to you. (There is the travel exemption just like traversing states).

    http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=75
    Authority to exercise criminal jurisdiction over all tribal members and the authority to arrest and detain non-Indians for delivery to state or federal authorities for prosecution. These tribal police powers are generally limited to tribal lands.
    Once you're delivered to state or federal agents I'm not sure what you could be charged with though.

    ETA:

    You'll at least lose your gun. I know in Arizona many tribes will seize your vehicle if you're trespassing.

    http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/tribal_law_ccw.pdf

    Tribal Law only applies to those who live on the Reservation. If you are carrying a firearm with a permit/license that is valid in the state the reservation is located in that permit/license may not be valid on the Reservation. They will most likely take the firearm and tell you that you can go to Tribal Court to get it back. Some say as long as you stay on the state roads through a Reservation you are OK but some Tribes ordinances state you can’t carry a firearm in a vehicle or on the roads on their Reservation. Tribal Police in most instances work closely with the Local Law Enforcement surrounding the Reservation. If you are breaking a state firearms law they will most likely hold you and contact the local authorities. Handgunlaw.us recommends before carrying on any Reservation that you actually talk to those in charge and preferably get something in writing that your permit/license is valid on their reservation. Otherwise keep it unloaded and secured in your trunk or locked box in the back of a vehicle that does not have a trunk.
    And this is an interesting article, not really about guns though.

    http://indiancountrynews.net/index.p...137&Itemid=109
    Last edited by sharkey; 11-22-2012 at 10:40 PM.

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