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Thread: Parking Lot incident

  1. #1
    Regular Member gmuguy's Avatar
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    Parking Lot incident

    So something really out of the norm happened to me yesterday and I want to hear some of your all's take on it.

    I was driving In a busy parking lot about 5mph when a SUV was barreling down the other side 25+ if I had to guess. He kinda swerved into my lane to try to make a wide turn into a spot acting like I was in his way so he threw up his hands at me. I returned throw up my hands as in "a what dude" type of statement. He slammed his car into park jumped out, I really didn't have a escape route. He screamed "dont you throw your hands up at me" fallowed by "Ill snap your F*cking neck and bash your face in" My pistol was right next to me between my seat and center console. Part of me wanted to draw it and tell him to back away to defuse the situation. The other was terrified to go for it fearing possible escalating the situation then being forced to use it.

    I immediately stated "sir back away from my vehicle immediately" He approached more almost right at my window which was down. I stated again "sir back away from my vehicle immediately before I am forced to defend my self and call the police" at that point in time he started backing away cussing some more and I drove off.

    What should I have done? should I have drawn on him? should I have called the police? should I have gotten out of my car? how did I handle it over all? just looking for input.

  2. #2
    Regular Member carolina guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmuguy View Post
    So something really out of the norm happened to me yesterday and I want to hear some of your all's take on it.

    I was driving In a busy parking lot about 5mph when a SUV was barreling down the other side 25+ if I had to guess. He kinda swerved into my lane to try to make a wide turn into a spot acting like I was in his way so he threw up his hands at me. I returned throw up my hands as in "a what dude" type of statement. He slammed his car into park jumped out, I really didn't have a escape route. He screamed "dont you throw your hands up at me" fallowed by "Ill snap your F*cking neck and bash your face in" My pistol was right next to me between my seat and center console. Part of me wanted to draw it and tell him to back away to defuse the situation. The other was terrified to go for it fearing possible escalating the situation then being forced to use it.

    I immediately stated "sir back away from my vehicle immediately" He approached more almost right at my window which was down. I stated again "sir back away from my vehicle immediately before I am forced to defend my self and call the police" at that point in time he started backing away cussing some more and I drove off.

    What should I have done? should I have drawn on him? should I have called the police? should I have gotten out of my car? how did I handle it over all? just looking for input.
    Sounds like you did ok to me. You had the means to defend yourself if it got worse, but it didn't. Hard to predict unstable individuals.
    If something is wrong for ONE person to do to another, it is still wrong if a BILLION people do it.

  3. #3
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    You did just fine.
    There was no need to go any further once he backed off, but you were prepared to do so if need be.

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    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    Parking Lot incident

    Be careful about raising your hands or making any gestures in retaliation. Such actions could be construed as instigating the situation which in some states alters your ability to defend yourself with impunity under stand-your-ground laws. An anti-prosecutor will take advantage of whatever he can. Best to complete ignore such individuals if at all possible. Beyond that small tidbit tidbit of advice, I think you did great!
    Last edited by thebigsd; 11-07-2012 at 06:20 PM.
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigsd View Post
    Be careful about raising your hands or making any gestures in retaliation. Such actions could be construed as instigating the situation which in some states alters your ability to defend yourself with impunity under stand-your-ground laws. An anti-prosecutor will take advantage of whatever he can. Best to complete ignore such individuals if at all possible. Beyond that small tidbit tidbit of advice, I think you did great!
    Best answer so far.

    In self-defense law, you must be blameless for contributing to the difficulty. Only clean hands gets you off. Free of blame in the minutest degree. http://www.virginia1774.org/Page5.html

    Thus, if you make a gesture like that, it can be interpreted as contributing to the difficulty. If he had attacked you and forced you to defend yourself with lethal force, you could be on the hook for manslaughter.

    The legal rationale is that the law is being very careful about the badguy who provokes someone into attacking him so he has an excuse to use lethal force and try to legally murder someone. See Virginia Gun Owners Guide 2006 edition.


    If you find yourself in such a situation where you reacted in a way that could be interpreted as provoking, and the other guy is escalating, in order to recover or somewhat recover your legal standing, you must attempt to retreat as far as you can safely go and show you have abandoned the fight in good faith. (Dodson v Commonwealth 1933) For example, as soon hostility-boy approached in a rage and you had no way out, you want to announce loudly enough for every witness in a country mile to hear you say something like, "I don't want any trouble! I don't want to fight you! Please leave me alone! I want to leave! I don't want to fight." And, keep repeating it until everybody and their cousin from Maryland to Rocky Mount has heard you.

    Essentially that is the verbal version of retreat. If you are in a bar, or lets say hostility-boy followed you across the parking lot and into the store, you want to give the classic hands up gesture--palms out, shoulder high--while announcing you don't want to fight, want to leave, don't want to fight, etc. while backing up as far as you can safely go. The palms-up gesture, in addition to conveying the idea that you don't want to continue has the added advantage of being a defensive position, and is the starting position for IDPA competition, so that if you are still attacked and full AOJ is present you are in the starting position for drawing. I practice drawing from that position for that reason.




    I had a co-worker one time tell me about how he got indignant because some young men blocked his car with theirs in a parking lot. Basically they stopped in the middle of the aisle and started yakking with somebody in the lot for longer than he wanted to wait to back out of his parking space to leave. He said he got out of his car and harshly told them to quit effing yakking and move the effing car so he could go. Of course, one of the young men got out of the car with a knife and started to approach him. He said he wished he had a gun that day! You should have seen the look on my co-worker's face when I told him he'd have gone to prison for manslaughter if he'd shot and killed the knife-man. He understood once I explained it to him, though. And, yes, the situation in the parking lot resolved verbally with nobody getting cut.

    Lessons in the legal necessity of politeness.



    Dodson v Commonwealth 1933 as quoted in VA Gun Owner's Guide 2006:

    "But if a sudden fight is brought on, without malice or intention, the accused, if in fault, must retreat as far as he safely can, but having done so and in good faith abandoned the fight, may kill his adversary, if he cannot in any other wasy preserve his life or save himself from great bodily harm." Emphasis in the original.
    Last edited by Citizen; 11-07-2012 at 08:35 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

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  6. #6
    Regular Member carolina guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigsd View Post
    Be careful about raising your hands or making any gestures in retaliation. Such actions could be construed as instigating the situation which in some states alters your ability to defend yourself with impunity under stand-your-ground laws. An anti-prosecutor will take advantage of whatever he can. Best to complete ignore such individuals if at all possible. Beyond that small tidbit tidbit of advice, I think you did great!
    Gotta agree with this 100%. As said on another thread...follow the penguin's advice from Madagascar.... "Smile and wave boys, smile and wave..."
    If something is wrong for ONE person to do to another, it is still wrong if a BILLION people do it.

  7. #7
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carolina guy View Post
    Sounds like you did ok to me. You had the means to defend yourself if it got worse, but it didn't. Hard to predict unstable individuals.
    I agree, he did OK. The only thing different is I would have rolled up the window and locked doors. Plus smiled, while calling police.
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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    I agree, he did OK. The only thing different is I would have rolled up the window and locked doors. Plus smiled, while calling police.
    +1.

    Moving away is also good.

    I really didn't have a escape route.
    Forward is also an escape route. Sure would be a pity if he found himself between your vehicle and his as the distance closed.

    Anybody remember how many grains the average automobile weighs?

    so he threw up his hands at me. I returned throw up my hands as in "a what dude" type of statement. He slammed his car into park jumped out, I really didn't have a escape route. He screamed "dont you throw your hands up at me" fallowed by "Ill snap your F*cking neck and bash your face in"
    Nice to see what he offers to do when you mirrored his behavior. But I doubt he would see the humor in that.

    stay safe.
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    The guy in the lot really did nothing illegal ... driving fast? Cursing? eh, sounds like the OP handled this just fine.

  10. #10
    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigsd View Post
    Be careful about raising your hands or making any gestures in retaliation. Such actions could be construed as instigating the situation which in some states alters your ability to defend yourself with impunity under stand-your-ground laws. An anti-prosecutor will take advantage of whatever he can. Best to complete ignore such individuals if at all possible. Beyond that small tidbit tidbit of advice, I think you did great!
    I concur.
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

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  11. #11
    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigsd View Post
    Be careful about raising your hands or making any gestures in retaliation. Such actions could be construed as instigating the situation which in some states alters your ability to defend yourself with impunity under stand-your-ground laws. An anti-prosecutor will take advantage of whatever he can. Best to complete ignore such individuals if at all possible. Beyond that small tidbit tidbit of advice, I think you did great!
    Really? I've never seen a law that goes THAT far. I mean yeah you can't instigate a fight, but it would take a real jury of characters to rule that the OP instigated the action with a single hand gesture and thus deserved to get his ass kicked...
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    Really? I've never seen a law that goes THAT far. I mean yeah you can't instigate a fight, but it would take a real jury of characters to rule that the OP instigated the action with a single hand gesture and thus deserved to get his ass kicked...
    He doesn't have to instigate the situation. All he has to do is contribute. See the link and case quote in my post above.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  13. #13
    Regular Member sparkman2's Avatar
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    When a person leaves the vehicle and approaches another car, isn't that illegal or considered road rage? IMO the OP had control of his situation and handled it quite well. I too carry my pistol right next to me between the seat and the console. My question is if the grip is visible is it considered concealed? I have a permission slip too

    Attachment 9521
    "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed one." Thomas Jefferson (quoting Cesare Beccaria)

  14. #14
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkman2 View Post
    When a person leaves the vehicle and approaches another car, isn't that illegal or considered road rage? IMO the OP had control of his situation and handled it quite well. I too carry my pistol right next to me between the seat and the console. My question is if the grip is visible is it considered concealed? I have a permission slip too

    Attachment 9521
    Based on the picture my vote would be of calling it OC.

    Is the holster just "janmmed" between the seat and console or is it secured to prevent inertia from throwing it to the floorboards in a sudden stop?

    Also, am I seeing correctly that the trigger/trigger guard area is not covered by the holster? Lots of some of the folks here can get downright worried about that.

    stay safe.
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  15. #15
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    OC!

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    Regular Member 45acpForMe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    <snip>
    :
    +1.
    :
    Forward is also an escape route. Sure would be a pity if he found himself between your vehicle and his as the distance closed.

    Anybody remember how many grains the average automobile weighs?
    :
    stay safe.
    Now Skidmark, don't go starting a caliber war in this thread! I had to smile at your comments!

    I agree that the situation didn't need escalation but I would like the brandishing laws revised to the point of showing a gun (without pointing it at someone) was not brandishing. In this case if the OP had grabbed his gun and just held it without pointing it, the other person could have him charged with brandishing if it became visible to him. I think in cases like this, civility can be quickly restored with OC but in a car it is hard for the outsiders to notice the OC unless you fix a holster on the dash.... which I have considered. :-)

    ETA: While not advisable and probably wrong, uncouth, and dangerous legally if it escalated.... I would be tempted to pull into the parking space the guy was trying to get to just to piss him off.
    Last edited by 45acpForMe; 11-08-2012 at 08:20 AM.

  17. #17
    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    Really? I've never seen a law that goes THAT far. I mean yeah you can't instigate a fight, but it would take a real jury of characters to rule that the OP instigated the action with a single hand gesture and thus deserved to get his ass kicked...
    In WV you are covered by the stand you ground law even if you instigate the fight.... PROVIDED that at some point during the fight you disengage and make it clear you do not want to continue the confrontation. (WEST VIRGINIA CODE 55-7-22 (e)(3))

    Anyway having said that, there is something strange that happens to people in a vehicle. They become a different animal and every non-verbal communication seems to be interpreted as a most egregious insult to the purity of the guy's sister. When I was younger I had my share of side-of-the-road altercations. It's just stupefying how the presence of the vehicle can escalate hostility so quickly.

    Now I never, ever acknowledge other drivers accept to wave them to go ahead or thank them for letting me go ahead. Period.
    I carry 100% of the time it is legal and I don't really care to shoot someone. So I do. not. escalate. If some idiot attacks me I'm gonna give him the guns, but it won't because of my middle finger getting me in trouble
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  18. #18
    Regular Member sparkman2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Based on the picture my vote would be of calling it OC.

    Is the holster just "janmmed" between the seat and console or is it secured to prevent inertia from throwing it to the floorboards in a sudden stop?

    Also, am I seeing correctly that the trigger/trigger guard area is not covered by the holster? Lots of some of the folks here can get downright worried about that.

    stay safe.
    That's just a stock picture from Google. I have a similar rig and it does cover the trigger guard and it will not go pin-balling around the truck. For some reason, triggers are a magnet for picker fingers. Go figure
    "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed one." Thomas Jefferson (quoting Cesare Beccaria)

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    Regular Member crazydude6030's Avatar
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post

    Anybody remember how many grains the average automobile weighs?
    pretty sure nap has something that uses cars as ammo
    Last edited by crazydude6030; 11-08-2012 at 04:29 PM.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Riana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazydude6030 View Post
    pretty sure nap has something that uses cars as ammo
    Gives a whole new meaning to "truck gun" doesn't that?

    As for the OP, I think you did fine.

  21. #21
    Regular Member gmuguy's Avatar
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    Thank you all for the feed back, Even tho I have not posted alot in the last year I read your post everyday and all of your advise and thoughts weigh deeply with me. I just hope im not put in a situation like that again anytime soon. I know I probably should not have thrown my hands up but I really wanted to give the guy the one finger salute lol

  22. #22
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmuguy View Post
    Thank you all for the feed back, Even tho I have not posted alot in the last year I read your post everyday and all of your advise and thoughts weigh deeply with me. I just hope im not put in a situation like that again anytime soon. I know I probably should not have thrown my hands up but I really wanted to give the guy the one finger salute lol
    I thought that's just how you said howdy north of the Ni


  23. #23
    Campaign Veteran kimbercarrier's Avatar
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    Hey Skid there are 7000 grains in a pound and the average car probably weighs about 3500 lbs. Which makes for a projectile of 24,500,000 grains. Not as big as Peter's guns but, it will do. ;-)

  24. #24
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kimbercarrier View Post
    Hey Skid there are 7000 grains in a pound and the average car probably weighs about 3500 lbs. Which makes for a projectile of 24,500,000 grains. Not as big as Peter's guns but, it will do. ;-)
    Thanks for doing the math.

    Now based on a 5MPH impact compute the foot-pounds of force. Be sure to show the conversion from MPH to Ft/sec.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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  25. #25
    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Thanks for doing the math.

    Now based on a 5MPH impact compute the foot-pounds of force. Be sure to show the conversion from MPH to Ft/sec.

    stay safe.
    well a 3500 pound car moving at 5 miles per hour equals 2.9251e+3 (scalar) foot pounds of energy.

    a 200 grain .45ACP FMJ at 840 fps equals only around 300 foot pounds (scalar) of energy.
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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