Open carry protest

No, im not against open carry on the contrary I am for open carry.

I was trying to think of some way of peacefully protesting against those who oppose open carry. I remembered hearing about a college group who carried empty holsters around campus to protest campus prohibition and thought of this idea and was considering doing it but was wondering about the legality of it and others thoughts on this before and if I do.

Ok, well if I have little or no choice but to conduct business with someone, or a business, or my employer says I can't carry a gun (I try to avoid these places as much as I can), what if after disarming I put a toy pistol or one of those blue training pistols in my holster? This I'm sure would bring their attention to me at which time I could inform them its a fake and my way of protesting their anti-gun views, exposing their unwarrented bias merely upon seeing what looks like a gun, and also giving me an opportunity to maybe educate or discuss the rights of lawful citizens and that posting the no guns sign or banning guns only gives people a false sense of security and tells the bad guys that the odds are everyone there is defenseless and that the bad guy doesn't care about the sign or their banning of guns other than telling them as long as they can get the task done before the cops get there they don't have to worry about getting shot.


So are there any laws against this, I haven't found any in the state laws. http://www.oscn.net/applications/OCISWeb/index.asp?level=1&ftdb=STOKST21

Also would like others thoughts on this. I know it sounds funny, maybe strange, and maybe even dumb. But still was just trying to think of some way to not only protest against anti-gun people and or businesses while staying within the confines of the law but to also maybe have a friendly conversation in efforts to educate.

Robert318 said:

No, im not against open carry on the contrary I am for open carry.

I was trying to think of some way of peacefully protesting against those who oppose open carry. I remembered hearing about a college group who carried empty holsters around campus to protest campus prohibition and thought of this idea and was considering doing it but was wondering about the legality of it and others thoughts on this before and if I do.

Ok, well if I have little or no choice but to conduct business with someone, or a business, or my employer says I can't carry a gun (I try to avoid these places as much as I can), what if after disarming I put a toy pistol or one of those blue training pistols in my holster? This I'm sure would bring their attention to me at which time I could inform them its a fake and my way of protesting their anti-gun views, exposing their unwarrented bias merely upon seeing what looks like a gun, and also giving me an opportunity to maybe educate or discuss the rights of lawful citizens and that posting the no guns sign or banning guns only gives people a false sense of security and tells the bad guys that the odds are everyone there is defenseless and that the bad guy doesn't care about the sign or their banning of guns other than telling them as long as they can get the task done before the cops get there they don't have to worry about getting shot.


So are there any laws against this, I haven't found any in the state laws. http://www.oscn.net/applications/OCISWeb/index.asp?level=1&ftdb=STOKST21

Also would like others thoughts on this. I know it sounds funny, maybe strange, and maybe even dumb. But still was just trying to think of some way to not only protest against anti-gun people and or businesses while staying within the confines of the law but to also maybe have a friendly conversation in efforts to educate.

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No guns, No money...business cards...when you are asked to leave...give the managment one. Then do not shot there until the no gins signs come down.

hermannr said:

No guns, No money...business cards...when you are asked to leave...give the managment one. Then do not shot there until the no gins signs come down.

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That sounds good, but where do I get some of those cards?

What if it's your employer or not a business that deals with merchandise or not scared of the loss of a few in the sea of the many? Or say its in a mall and the store is the only one within 100miles?

And again I try to avoid anti-gun businesses when I can but when choices are limited they are limited. Example, say your job has you driving across the state when you realize you forgot to fill up and your almost on empty and there is only one gas station close enough to gas. Or you really need to use the facilities and the closest place had a sign, how effective is a no gun no money card?

But thanks for your input.

Robert318 said:

That sounds good, but where do I get some of those cards?

What if it's your employer or not a business that deals with merchandise or not scared of the loss of a few in the sea of the many? Or say its in a mall and the store is the only one within 100miles?

And again I try to avoid anti-gun businesses when I can but when choices are limited they are limited. Example, say your job has you driving across the state when you realize you forgot to fill up and your almost on empty and there is only one gas station close enough to gas. Or you really need to use the facilities and the closest place had a sign, how effective is a no gun no money card?

But thanks for your input.

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Try here http://www.google.com/imgres?q=No+g...w=223&start=0&ndsp=20&ved=1t:429,r:5,s:0,i:89

Oklahoma Open Carry Association has been selling them at gun shows. Give me a day or two and I'll figure out a way for people to order them mail order. We are just covering our cost for printing. In the meantime, there is this letter we wrote that you can print and hand to a business owner/manager.

I don't think I'd recommend the fake gun in a holster idea. Apparently others on facebook agree with me.

okiebryan said:

Oklahoma Open Carry Association has been selling them at gun shows. Give me a day or two and I'll figure out a way for people to order them mail order. We are just covering our cost for printing. In the meantime, there is this letter we wrote that you can print and hand to a business owner/manager.

I don't think I'd recommend the fake gun in a holster idea. Apparently others on facebook agree with me.

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I checked out the link from 1911er about the cards, only problem is the back side qoutes Missouri law, but is a PDF format one can print themselves, like your letter or pamphlet. Maybe some cards by okoca in PDF would be cool too.

I like the letter/card thing but not sure how much they will actually read them and not toss them in the trash. I have seen studies about people reading things and odds aren't very good. One of my teachers would put a small note on one of her boards around the room saying something like " if you read this I will give you a prize" she didn't have to give out many prizes, most people don't read unless they have to.

I was just trying to think of something that maybe in a way forces them to be attentive to our voice and our rights. But do plan on using your letters and pamphlets though it may be limited to available funds (;. I appreciate your thoughts and suggestions.

Robert318 said:

..... I try to avoid anti-gun businesses when I can but when choices are limited they are limited. Example, say your job has you driving across the state when you realize you forgot to fill up and your almost on empty and there is only one gas station close enough to gas. Or you really need to use the facilities and the closest place had a sign, how effective is a no gun no money card?

But thanks for your input.

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Only you can decide when practicality overrides your principles. I, for one, would certainly never criticize you for making such a decision. That's an individual decision that YOU have to make for yourself. Whatever's right for you - is right for you. It's nobody's business but yours.

As far as "immediate effect" of a "NGNM" card - probably none. The pimply-faced HS kid on duty has no authority to change any corporate policy. NGNM cards are long-term. Hopefully they will convince an owner/manager that the revenue he is sacrificing is not worth it.

For today - you just have to decide what you have to do - then do it.

For my part, I support you whatever you do.

Just carry on !!!! We need all of us carrying - now, more than ever. This is a very, very dangerous time for our republic right now. Those of us who believe in our right to protect ourselves and our loved ones are under fire on a daily basis. We must stand together, and stand strong.

docachna said:

Only you can decide when practicality overrides your principles. I, for one, would certainly never criticize you for making such a decision. That's an individual decision that YOU have to make for yourself. Whatever's right for you - is right for you. It's nobody's business but yours.

As far as "immediate effect" of a "NGNM" card - probably none. The pimply-faced HS kid on duty has no authority to change any corporate policy. NGNM cards are long-term. Hopefully they will convince an owner/manager that the revenue he is sacrificing is not worth it.

For today - you just have to decide what you have to do - then do it.

For my part, I support you whatever you do.

Just carry on !!!! We need all of us carrying - now, more than ever. This is a very, very dangerous time for our republic right now. Those of us who believe in our right to protect ourselves and our loved ones are under fire on a daily basis. We must stand together, and stand strong.

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Thank you

Robert, an empty holster is one thing; I see no problem with that. Putting a training gun or 'toy gun' (I don't know if you mean an air soft gun or what) is another. I think that is a little silly and possibly dangerous or illegal depending on how realistic it is or if it is actually capable of firing a projectile of some sort.

However, as doc said, you have the freedom to do as you please. I imagine you are asking for input by posting what you did. This is simply my opinion in response to that question / request for input. I do not represent OKOCA or any other organization; but I would ask you not to hand out OKOCA brochures if you are doing something that is not approved by OKOCA. It could possibly cast a negative shadow on an organization that is trying very hard to further your rights to OC.

As for the business cards being published in PDF format; OKOCA is providing them as a fund raising opportunity. They are asking for a $2 donation for a bundle of them. I don't think they are really selling them. I think they are giving them away free for a small donation. They are an NPO so they have to find their funding somehow.

Personally, I have OC'ed for many years. I have never 'protested' anyone in the manner you are suggesting. I have never even worn an empty holster until I moved to OK and I only did that in a group setting with OKOCA members and supporters before 1 Nov. 2012. If you want to know how I have handled situations like that, here goes. If not, here goes anyway because maybe it will help someone else:

I do not patronize businesses that do not allow me to carry. If I have no choice, that is a different matter. In that case I typically just conceal; but I do not make a habit of doing so. I only do that in emergency situations such as the one you described in which you are running low on fuel or something of that nature. Most of the time you do have a choice. It may not be convenient, but there are usually other options. If not, then I consider that an urgent / emergency situation as previously stated.

If my employer does not allow me to carry, then I don't have much of a choice. I have carried before at work when I was prohibited from doing so. In that situation I was prepared to lose my job if it came down to me having to use lethal force to protect my own life. I was not, however, prepared to lose my life just to comply with my employer's wishes. I make every effort to seek employment with companies that allow me to take my protection into my own hands, but I do realize that option is not available or realistic for everyone. The bottom line when it comes to your employer is that you do have a choice. Even though it may not be a convenient one, you have a choice in your employment.

My typical means of protest is silent. I do not intentionally try to draw attention to myself when I OC. Some establishments may target me because of it, but I do not seek that attention. If I am in a place where I know their corporate policy does not prohibit OC and a rogue manager makes a big deal out of it, I attempt to educate them about their company's corporate policy. If they persist, I peacefully leave after getting their name and store number. I then contact the corporate office and inform them of the transgression. Once I re-establish that their policy is OC friendly I ask for the name and direct contact information for the person I am speaking with at corporate. I then keep that information handy for my next visit to the location which was in violation of the policy. I am not intimidated by anyone (LEO's, store managers, or other citizens) who does not like my choice to OC nor do I seek to intimidate anyone into accepting my choice.

The bottom line is that I want people to respect all of my God given rights, most of which are protected by law. In the same manner I respect the legal rights of others. Those rights include private property rights which may allow them to prevent me from exercising my choice to OC. It works both ways. On my private property I can tell people that they are not allowed to wear Florida Gators paraphernalia simply because I am a Dawgs fan. It does not matter if it's something that benign or if I violate their protected right to freedom of religion or freedom of speech. Do people not turn away Mormons and Jehovah's witnesses every day? Their actions are protected by our Constitution; but private property owners have the final say about what happens on their property. That is the bottom line. You have to respect that.

*Please forgive any grammatical errors as I typed this on my iPhone. What a pain...lol

Thank you smitty, thats is exactly what I am looking for and that is others thoughts and opinions respectively. If I was to carry a fake pistol I wasn't thinking of using one that propels a projectile or on using okoca literature but merely try to educate with the knowledge and beliefs I already have on the subject.

As for the private property thing I do agree to the point of property that is actually private and not semi private aka accessable to the public. When you open your property up to the public you open it to all walks of life and therefore should not be able to discrimenate unless they/you charge a membership fee or something of that nature. Somewhat like being a celebrity or a political figure you can't expect to have complete privacy that's just the nature of that lifestyle/business.

Also most people don't know this but if the postman delivers mail to a mailbox on your front porch, your porch is therefore no longer private but is public and if you wanted to sit there and drink a beer you could actually be cited for public intoxicating (but don't just take my word for it look it up or ask a lawyer but it is fact). Business owners are still citizens just as we are and in this country as our declaration of independence states all men are equal,"We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness". And I would like to emphasize on the word liberty;
The state of being free within society from oppressive restrictions imposed by authority on one's way of life.

Again I wasn't sure about the idea and not really wanting attention but was just looking for a peaceful way of protesting the descrimination toward or rights to be armed for self defense. I have cc in alot of these places that are now putting up signs and am irritated by the false sense of security that people think the signs/bans bring them. :banghead:

Again thanks for your thoughts/input.

Robert, I understand where you are coming from, but you are muddying the waters on the private property issue.

Just for example, WalMart is private property. They are allowed to discriminate all they want, subject to applicable laws. If they choose to ban anyone who wears a blue shirt, they absolutely legally can do that. They discriminate against people who have been caught shoplifting all the time. However, because they are a place of public accommodation, they are prohibited by federal law from discriminating for certain reasons. They cannot discriminate because of a disability. Or because someone is old. Or of a certain race. Or religion. And so forth... There are some state laws that prohibit discrimination for sexual preference. Your home is NOT a public accommodation, so you can choose who can stay and who has to go with impunity.

That's where the public accommodation part starts and ends. Discrimination is only illegal if it's against certain things.

The postman putting main in your box does not change the fact that your porch is private property. You have implied an invitation to him by installing the mailbox on the porch. If you don't want him there, move the box to the street or get a PO Box.

Do you have a better picture relating to public accommodation places and private property?

Stop waiting for someone else to do something.

While I agree with everybody else that giving away educational information (letters, business cards) are better than confrontational and in-your-face actions, I must disagree with the suggestions that you wait until someone else makes the educational materials available. I'm going to out on a limb here and say I doubt that anybody or any organization is going to get upset if you buy your own. I'll also go out on a limb and say the only concerns any organization like OOCA would have is that your information be accurate and that you not use their logo without permission.

Vistaprint* www.vistaprint.com has some of the cheapest prices for 2-sided business cards. Go to their website and play with their card designer until you think you have something you want to pay for. Maybe post it on OCDO to get reactions. If you feel you are no good at designing cards look at what other folks have done and ask permission to copy their work - I am not aware of anybody trying to make money off their cards although some folks will ask for a contribution towards their expenses.

Then buy the smallest lot you can (I think that's 250). Carry a dozen or so with you every day - they are good not only to give to businesses where you were told your handgun was not welcome, but to give to folks looking for more information about the legalities of OC.

stay safe.

* I do not get anything from them for suggesting that company over any other. It's just that I use them and find price, service, and time from order to receipt to be very good. If you find a better price or place that can do them faster you will not hurt my feelings by going with them instead.

Well yes and no, so they can not discriminate for things protected under the constitution (age, race, sex) or disabilities under the disabilities act but can our 2nd amendment rights since our legislators felt that these thick wallet buisness owners deserved more rights than we do so they wrote into law a law that contradicts the US constitution, therefore that makes it right or ok? I'm sorry I don't understand that or agree with that, but i do understand that whether I agree or not the law is the law. And I understand about the private property that doesn't have public accommodation but don't really understand how a public accommodating property owner private or public can allow or disallow someone based on their own emotions or beliefs.

1)TITLE 21 § 1290.25 LEGISLATIVE INTENT
.....The Oklahoma Self- Defense Act shall be liberally construed to carry out the constitutional right to bear arms for self-defense and self-protection. The provisions of the Oklahoma Self-Defense Act are cumulative to existing rights to bear arms and nothing in the Oklahoma Self-Defense Act shall impair or diminish those rights.

And the other I can't seem to find at this moment but want to say it is either in the SDA or a quote from one our forefathers, in the constitution, or federal codefied laws which say we shall not be discriminated becuase of ones beliefs or emotion. But may be I'm wrong, it wouldn't be the first time and I'm sure not the last,lol

And I was of the understanding that some jurisdictions won't allow you to put a mail box by the street and personally know of an instance when an aquantance was arrested for drinking in public when he was standing on his own front porch, everyone present at the time called BS but it happened and when we ask how it was public we were given the mailbox explanation. Maybe it was an unlawful arrest or maybe the law has changed since then but it did happen.

Keep up the good work, Thank you.

skidmark said:

Stop waiting for someone else to do something.
...
Vistaprint* www.vistaprint.com has some of the cheapest prices for 2-sided business cards. Go to their website and play with their card designer until you think you have something you want to pay for. Maybe post it on OCDO to get reactions. If you feel you are no good at designing cards look at what other folks have done and ask permission to copy their work - I am not aware of anybody trying to make money off their cards although some folks will ask for a contribution towards their expenses.

Then buy the smallest lot you can (I think that's 250). Carry a dozen or so with you every day - they are good not only to give to businesses where you were told your handgun was not welcome, but to give to folks looking for more information about the legalities of OC.
...

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+1

I was by no means suggesting you only use OKOCA educational materials. I was simply suggesting that if you were engaging in an activity in which they do not approve, that they probably wouldn't like you handing out material with their information (i.e. logo) on it as people may be inclined to believe that you are representing them in some way and may possibly create some negative publicity for them if something were to go wrong.

As for the points you bring up about businesses being open to the public and, therefore, no longer private property; you are simply incorrect from a legal standpoint. I happen to feel the same way as you do though. The problem is that our opinions are not the law. Legally, they are protected by private property laws. We can try to change it through the proper channels, but you know as well as I do that it will never happen. Much the same way as a business can decide who can have a car wash or Girl Scout cookie fundraiser in their parking lot; they can also choose not to allow firearms inside their stores.

Our church once had a request turned down by Walmart to hold a youth group car wash fundraiser in their parking lot. They stated that it was because we were a religious organization. They stated that there was another local group which claimed to be furthering their agenda under the guise of religious freedom. This group tried to hand out informational brochures to customers at the entrances to the store one day without asking permission. When they were asked to leave, they claimed they were being religiously persecuted. To avoid such situations in the future, that Walmart store (with corporate permission) instituted a policy not to allow any religious groups to conduct any activities on their property. We were upset when we were told that we could not hold our fundraiser there because we were a religious group. The manager failed to tell us the whole story. I contacted corporate and that is how I found out the entire story. Now, I OC'ed in that store for quite a while before and continued to do so after this course of events. I never had a problem with OC at that store. In fact, I was probably OC'ing when I went to ask about doing the fundraiser because I OC'ed everywhere I went every day when I lived in that state. I think I may have thought that had something to do with our group being denied because I had a hard time believing they would discriminate against churches.

I tell you that story because religious freedom is obviously protected by our Constitution as we believe our right to OC is as well. That being said, any property owner can restrict any activity on their property. Thus the signs you see in many places reading, "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone." It means exactly that. Just as Bryan said, they can refuse service because you are wearing a blue shirt.

Again, I want to stress that I personally don't feel that Walmart should be considered private property because they are open to the public and the property belongs to a corporation. That being said, corporations are afforded many of the same rights as people. That is why you can sue a corporation just as you can sue a person. I do agree that if they have the same liability then they should be given some rights as well to give them a fair shake. So while we may not like it, it is the law. Just as some people may not like what we have to say or how we carry our sidearms, but we are protected by the law. Afterall, fair is fair.

You are asking them to give up your rights then by saying they can not go over yours. However, you are going on their property, so in this case theirs does go over yours. It is open to the public, but it is not public property. Also, we can use the old freedom of speech thing to counter your logic as well. I will even go as far as to say that slander laws are illegal by your logic since they limit my freedom of speech. I'm hoping that you never ever get upset in the slightest way if someone decides to sit in your yard for the heck of it even if it is against your wishes, because you'd be going against some of their rights then also. Opening up property for people to shop in does not mean that they now give up all their rights as the property owners and you either choose to abide by their rules or you don't go there. FIRE FIRE FIRE!!! I yelled in the crowded building while causing a panic. Darn, I used my freedom of speech and got into trouble. It's not my fault people got hurt trying to get out while I practiced my freedom of speech.

Springfield Smitty said:

+1

I was by no means suggesting you only use OKOCA educational materials. I was simply suggesting that if you were engaging in an activity in which they do not approve, that they probably wouldn't like you handing out material with their information (i.e. logo) on it as people may be inclined to believe that you are representing them in some way and may possibly create some negative publicity for them if something were to go wrong.

As for the points you bring up about businesses being open to the public and, therefore, no longer private property; you are simply incorrect from a legal standpoint. I happen to feel the same way as you do though. The problem is that our opinions are not the law. Legally, they are protected by private property laws. We can try to change it through the proper channels, but you know as well as I do that it will never happen. Much the same way as a business can decide who can have a car wash or Girl Scout cookie fundraiser in their parking lot; they can also choose not to allow firearms inside their stores.

Our church once had a request turned down by Walmart to hold a youth group car wash fundraiser in their parking lot. They stated that it was because we were a religious organization. They stated that there was another local group which claimed to be furthering their agenda under the guise of religious freedom. This group tried to hand out informational brochures to customers at the entrances to the store one day without asking permission. When they were asked to leave, they claimed they were being religiously persecuted. To avoid such situations in the future, that Walmart store (with corporate permission) instituted a policy not to allow any religious groups to conduct any activities on their property. We were upset when we were told that we could not hold our fundraiser there because we were a religious group. The manager failed to tell us the whole story. I contacted corporate and that is how I found out the entire story. Now, I OC'ed in that store for quite a while before and continued to do so after this course of events. I never had a problem with OC at that store. In fact, I was probably OC'ing when I went to ask about doing the fundraiser because I OC'ed everywhere I went every day when I lived in that state. I think I may have thought that had something to do with our group being denied because I had a hard time believing they would discriminate against churches.

I tell you that story because religious freedom is obviously protected by our Constitution as we believe our right to OC is as well. That being said, any property owner can restrict any activity on their property. Thus the signs you see in many places reading, "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone." It means exactly that. Just as Bryan said, they can refuse service because you are wearing a blue shirt.

Again, I want to stress that I personally don't feel that Walmart should be considered private property because they are open to the public and the property belongs to a corporation. That being said, corporations are afforded many of the same rights as people. That is why you can sue a corporation just as you can sue a person. I do agree that if they have the same liability then they should be given some rights as well to give them a fair shake. So while we may not like it, it is the law. Just as some people may not like what we have to say or how we carry our sidearms, but we are protected by the law. Afterall, fair is fair.

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Smitty,

I appreciate your input and your perspective and feel that now I have a better understanding. Though it fustrates me that not everyone has the same morals and discipline that I was brought up with and would discriminate against people simply based on bias reasoning as it is different from dening or banning an act or expression that would be actually jeopardising the business itself or the safety of other patrons. Kind of like if a gang of misfits invaded and was running around the store tearing things up and running off customers. But with that said I can understand the need for the "We have the right to refuse service".

Again thanks for your perspective.

mohawk001 said:

You are asking them to give up your rights then by saying they can not go over yours. However, you are going on their property, so in this case theirs does go over yours. It is open to the public, but it is not public property. Also, we can use the old freedom of speech thing to counter your logic as well. I will even go as far as to say that slander laws are illegal by your logic since they limit my freedom of speech. I'm hoping that you never ever get upset in the slightest way if someone decides to sit in your yard for the heck of it even if it is against your wishes, because you'd be going against some of their rights then also. Opening up property for people to shop in does not mean that they now give up all their rights as the property owners and you either choose to abide by their rules or you don't go there. FIRE FIRE FIRE!!! I yelled in the crowded building while causing a panic. Darn, I used my freedom of speech and got into trouble. It's not my fault people got hurt trying to get out while I practiced my freedom of speech.

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Mohawk,

At no time do I desire to tread on others rights but desire that all men have equality or as smitty put it a fair shake. But I do have an understanding that when we partake in certain business and or careers it inherately requires a self sacrifice of certain rights or rights to absolute privacy and requires a certain amount of transparency and or tolerance for others.

Also your logical reasoning comment about slander or freedom of speech is a little off the mark. The sheer fact about slandering is actually a crime in and of itself and therefore you would not have that right to do so but the carrying of a firearm under the confines of the law is not criminal and therefore one should have that right any where "Shall not be infringed". Slander would be harmful to others but the act of carrying a firearm is not as they can look or walk the other way and slander does not give one the ability to walk away or look away it follows them around and can reach deeply into other aspects of their life.

And the comment about yelling "fire fire" would depend on the context. If you did so with malice intent and someone got hurt it would be wrong and you would be at fault. But what if you and a friend were playing one of those video games that they let you try in the store and you yelled "fire fire" and people took it out of context and got hurt running for the door, your action didnt have any intent of causing harm but was mearly due to your getting into the game.

Sounds to me like your comparing apples to oranges so I disagree with your comment but none the less I thank you for your thoughts. Notice how I sacrificed my right to not hear things that I may not agree with when I opened the door with this thread likewise is my logic of businesses that open their doors to the public.

Here are the cards that I use.
They should be printed on double sided standard business cards.

WinchesterModel12 said:

Here are the cards that I use.
They should be printed on double sided standard business cards.

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Thank you for the link.

skidmark said:

Then buy the smallest lot you can (I think that's 250).

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Or even better, buy more and share them with other like minded people. The first 250 is the most expensive, past that they get downright cheap.