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Thread: Eleven, eleven, eleven, eighteen

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    Regular Member SFCRetired's Avatar
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    Eleven, eleven, eleven, eighteen

    Ninety-four years ago this Sunday, eleven November, the guns fell silent for the first time in four long, bloody years. A young private who was transitioning from Coast Artillery to Field Artillery was in France at that time. His unit was scheduled, had not he Armistice intervened, to move to the front lines the following week.

    That young soldier is gone now. Until the day he died, he never failed to pause for a moment on that day and, when the season rolled around, he never failed to put a dollar or two in the Salvation Army kettles.

    Tomorrow, I ask that all of you, my friends, join me in a moment of silence at eleven o'clock in memory of not only those veterans of WWI, but of all the veterans of our country's services. For those of you who served, I ask that you join me in a raised glass of the beverage of your choice in memory of those we left behind.

    How do I know about the young soldier? He was my father.

    The title of the thread comes from "the eleventh hour of the eleventh day of the eleventh month, 1918."
    Last edited by SFCRetired; 11-10-2012 at 08:56 PM.
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    Not to detract from the OP, but it used to be called Armistice Day to commemorate the end of the war. Somewhere it got turned around into commemorating people who served. Nifty little trick if you don't want war to end.

    Some point out that it was a commemoration of the war to end all wars, that there wouldn't be any more wars. Of course, that didn't work out. And, you can't have a holiday that reminds people that government kept right on getting into wars.

    So, lets do both. Remember those who served. And, remember that it was the end of a terrible and unnecessary war that was supposed to be the last one; but government kept right on getting into wars, killing more, adding more to the list for remembrance, a list that really, really needs to be a lot shorter.
    Last edited by Citizen; 11-11-2012 at 12:12 AM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Not to detract from the OP, but it used to be called Armistice Day to commemorate the end of the war. Somewhere it got turned around into commemorating people who served. Nifty little trick if you don't want war to end.

    Some point out that it was a commemoration of the war to end all wars, that there wouldn't be any more wars. Of course, that didn't work out. And, you can't have a holiday that reminds people that government kept right on getting into wars.

    So, lets do both. Remember those who served. And, remember that it was the end of a terrible and unnecessary war that was supposed to be the last one; but government kept right on getting into wars, killing more, adding more to the list for remembrance, a list that really, really needs to be a lot shorter.
    Better yet, let's just quit joining the military. Those who want war can join those who don't, well, don't.

    And don't anyone go on about how they are a veteran seeing as how I am one too.

    So, lets just end all the wars and work on peace. If we don't get along then don't play in their back yard.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Regular Member KYKevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    Better yet, let's just quit joining the military. Those who want war can join those who don't, well, don't.

    And don't anyone go on about how they are a veteran seeing as how I am one too.

    So, lets just end all the wars and work on peace. If we don't get along then don't play in their back yard.
    Sometimes war is a necessary evil. But it comes all to easy for politicians and generals to make war when they no longer have to stand at the front and lead. No they stand safely at the back or far away and watch as young men die for them to pat each other on the back and give speeches, and when it is over we bury or have to take care of those wounded who did all the work. Because the politicians and generals forget about them when all is said and done and they have no further use for them. From one vet to another. Happy Veterans Day to those who served and are serving.
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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    Better yet, let's just quit joining the military. Those who want war can join those who don't, well, don't. And don't anyone go on about how they are a veteran seeing as how I am one too.
    So, lets just end all the wars and work on peace. If we don't get along then don't play in their back yard.
    I do not agree with you Freedom1Man. We all know the Military is a volunteer force, so those in the Military sought the job out for one reason or another. This could be college bucks, learn a trade or get down Service to Country. Those who want war are weeded out quickly in most cases. I served for a while and most of it was combat. Good Troops train hard, publicly, so everyone can see just how effective you are. In this manner your opponent will, as you have heard before, move to a softer target. I never wanted to fight, but was always allowed to be aggressive enough to succeed. That has changed.
    Soldiers do not make war, politicians do. Do not elect someone who has not been on the sharp end ( let alone just a bloody community organizer). Be careful to whom you give the ability to make war. Those are real people on the ground, and those are the People we Honor today.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie View Post
    I do not agree with you Freedom1Man. We all know the Military is a volunteer force, so those in the Military sought the job out for one reason or another. This could be college bucks, learn a trade or get down Service to Country. Those who want war are weeded out quickly in most cases. I served for a while and most of it was combat. Good Troops train hard, publicly, so everyone can see just how effective you are. In this manner your opponent will, as you have heard before, move to a softer target. I never wanted to fight, but was always allowed to be aggressive enough to succeed. That has changed.
    Soldiers do not make war, politicians do. Do not elect someone who has not been on the sharp end ( let alone just a bloody community organizer). Be careful to whom you give the ability to make war. Those are real people on the ground, and those are the People we Honor today.
    To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;

    To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

    To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

    To provide and maintain a Navy;

    To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

    To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

    To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress; (AK 47s FOR EVERYONE!!!)

    ----
    Looks like it's time to disband the armies and re-arm the militias.

    No matter the reason you (voluntarily) join the military, the simple act of joining means that you had some interest in going to war (yes I was like that once also). So to reduce the wars lets have a anti-recruitment campaign.

    For training let's get the militia in our areas together for the public training.

    The funding of any armies is not to last longer than two years. As soon as a "budget" runs out and a new one is not approved the military stops getting funded. Oh wait, most soldiers have never read the constitution and so have no idea what they swore to uphold and defend.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Regular Member SFCRetired's Avatar
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    The intent of my original post was to honor both the memory of my father, a WWI veteran, and all the other veterans who have served honorably and well.

    It is sad that some feel the need to inject their political philosophies into the thread.
    "Happiness is a warm shotgun!!"
    "I am neither a pessimist nor a cynic. I am, rather, a realist."
    "The most dangerous things I've ever encountered were a Second Lieutenant with a map and a compass and a Private who was bored and had time on his hands."

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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SFCRetired View Post
    The intent of my original post was to honor both the memory of my father, a WWI veteran, and all the other veterans who have served honorably and well.

    It is sad that some feel the need to inject their political philosophies into the thread.
    hon·or·a·ble
       [on-er-uh-buhl] Show IPA
    adjective
    1.in accordance with or characterized by principles of honor; upright: They were all honorable men.
    2.of high rank, dignity, or distinction; noble, illustrious, or distinguished.
    3.worthy of honor and high respect; estimable; creditable.
    4.bringing honor or credit; consistent with honor.

    ---------

    How can any service be honorable if those serving did/do not honor their oath?
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Regular Member KYKevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SFCRetired View Post
    The intent of my original post was to honor both the memory of my father, a WWI veteran, and all the other veterans who have served honorably and well.

    It is sad that some feel the need to inject their political philosophies into the thread.
    SFCRetired if it was my post that got it started then My apologies. It was not my intent. And I am truly sorry.
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    We all speak of liberty and freedom like we are the only ones that know the truth and the right path. But if we expect everyone to accept and follow our path and to accept our truth and want to force it upon them then that is no longer liberty or freedom. It is slavery. I believe in liberty for all. Regardless of their political views, religion, race, sex, etc.

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    Regular Member SFCRetired's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    hon·or·a·ble
       [on-er-uh-buhl] Show IPA
    adjective
    1.in accordance with or characterized by principles of honor; upright: They were all honorable men.
    2.of high rank, dignity, or distinction; noble, illustrious, or distinguished.
    3.worthy of honor and high respect; estimable; creditable.
    4.bringing honor or credit; consistent with honor.

    ---------

    How can any service be honorable if those serving did/do not honor their oath?
    I honored, and still honor, the oath I took. My father, my cousin (Normandy invasion), my stepbrother (U.S.Navy, Korea), my former brother-in-law (Vietnam), and my son (currently AD, Afghanistan), not to mention my great-grandfather (44th Indiana Volunteer Infantry), all honored their oath. Even my other two great-grandfathers (32nd Alabama Infantry) honored the oaths they took.

    I don't know who you are alluding to with your last statement, but I've never known a service member who did not keep the oath they took. Perhaps you hung out with the wrong bunch when/if you served.

    @KYKevin: No, it wasn't your post. No apologies were necessary from you. Thank you for caring.
    "Happiness is a warm shotgun!!"
    "I am neither a pessimist nor a cynic. I am, rather, a realist."
    "The most dangerous things I've ever encountered were a Second Lieutenant with a map and a compass and a Private who was bored and had time on his hands."

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    Quote Originally Posted by SFCRetired View Post
    The intent of my original post was to honor both the memory of my father, a WWI veteran, and all the other veterans who have served honorably and well.

    It is sad that some feel the need to inject their political philosophies into the thread.

    There is nothing wrong with honoring your father. I think the gist of these other posts is in the direction of reducing the incidence of honoring future fathers in the same way.

    War is political act; its kinda hard to divorce honoring veterans from politics.

    At least nobody is attacking you or your dad for his and your views on the military.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Regular Member mobiushky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;

    To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

    To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

    To provide and maintain a Navy;

    To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

    To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

    To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress; (AK 47s FOR EVERYONE!!!)

    ----
    Looks like it's time to disband the armies and re-arm the militias.

    No matter the reason you (voluntarily) join the military, the simple act of joining means that you had some interest in going to war (yes I was like that once also). So to reduce the wars lets have a anti-recruitment campaign.

    For training let's get the militia in our areas together for the public training.

    The funding of any armies is not to last longer than two years. As soon as a "budget" runs out and a new one is not approved the military stops getting funded. Oh wait, most soldiers have never read the constitution and so have no idea what they swore to uphold and defend.
    The only comment I have to this is look to Switzerland for your example. Switzerland has no standing army. What many people don't know is that the Swiss have chosen instead to have a citizen army. The reason gun laws are historically so lenient is that each citizen in the 20-30 age group is required to be a trained and armed member of the militia. They are all issued military arms and required to train extensively. Ammunition is government subsidized. However, lately, the Swiss have signed on to a few international treaties that have put a significant dent in the gun laws and more politicians are calling for tighter gun control. What happens when your only army becomes unarmed?

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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobiushky View Post
    The only comment I have to this is look to Switzerland for your example. Switzerland has no standing army. What many people don't know is that the Swiss have chosen instead to have a citizen army. The reason gun laws are historically so lenient is that each citizen in the 20-30 age group is required to be a trained and armed member of the militia. They are all issued military arms and required to train extensively. Ammunition is government subsidized. However, lately, the Swiss have signed on to a few international treaties that have put a significant dent in the gun laws and more politicians are calling for tighter gun control. What happens when your only army becomes unarmed?
    Let's just follow the constitution.

    If we are following the most basic law of this country then, you can't disarm the militia.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SFCRetired View Post
    I honored, and still honor, the oath I took. My father, my cousin (Normandy invasion), my stepbrother (U.S.Navy, Korea), my former brother-in-law (Vietnam), and my son (currently AD, Afghanistan), not to mention my great-grandfather (44th Indiana Volunteer Infantry), all honored their oath. Even my other two great-grandfathers (32nd Alabama Infantry) honored the oaths they took.

    I don't know who you are alluding to with your last statement, but I've never known a service member who did not keep the oath they took. Perhaps you hung out with the wrong bunch when/if you served.

    @KYKevin: No, it wasn't your post. No apologies were necessary from you. Thank you for caring.
    Let's run a short quiz to all members of our armed forces.

    First question (you get it wrong it's an automatic fail); What form of government did our founding fathers create?
    2: What branch of government has the power/authority to declare war?
    3: That is the 10th Amendment in the bill of rights? (give us the gist of it)
    4: Does the constitution grant congress the power to PRINT money?

    Maybe add a few more.
    I have a feeling that the average soldier will get either 1 or 0 on this test. Some might get 2 and the rare soldier will get 3-4 right.
    Which would prove my point that you cannot honor that which you do not understand.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    Let's run a short quiz to all members of our armed forces.

    First question (you get it wrong it's an automatic fail); What form of government did our founding fathers create?
    2: What branch of government has the power/authority to declare war?
    3: That is the 10th Amendment in the bill of rights? (give us the gist of it)
    4: Does the constitution grant congress the power to PRINT money?

    Maybe add a few more.
    I have a feeling that the average soldier will get either 1 or 0 on this test. Some might get 2 and the rare soldier will get 3-4 right.
    Which would prove my point that you cannot honor that which you do not understand.
    1. RR
    2. Congress Critters
    3. Feds get to do, states do not get to do, if neither of the prior the states get to do, if neither of the three previous the people get to do.
    4. Yes. (Don't forget the last line item in Section Eight)
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    1. RR
    2. Congress Critters
    3. Feds get to do, states do not get to do, if neither of the prior the states get to do, if neither of the three previous the people get to do.
    4. Yes. (Don't forget the last line item in Section Eight)
    3 out of 4, not bad.

    "And to print," was struck from the constitution forever baring the use of paper money.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    3 out of 4, not bad.

    "And to print," was struck from the constitution forever baring the use of paper money.
    Meh. No big deal.

    Currency Regulations

    Reinforced by the necessary and proper clause, the powers “‘to lay and collect taxes, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States,’ and ‘to borrow money on the credit of the United States and to coin money and regulate the value thereon . . . ,’”1750 have been held to give Congress virtually complete control over money and currency. A prohibitive tax on the notes of state banks,1751 the issuance of treasury notes impressed with the quality of legal tender in payment of private debts1752 and the abrogation of clauses in private contracts, which called for payment in gold coin,1753 were sustained as appropriate measures for carrying into effect some or all of the foregoing powers.

    Necessary and Proper Clause
    Congress is hesitant to restrain the Legislative Branch due to the Necessary and Proper Clause where there is no clear and unambiguous constitutional prohibition.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  18. #18
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Meh. No big deal.

    Congress SCOTUS is hesitant to restrain the Legislative Branch due to the Necessary and Proper Clause where there is no clear and unambiguous constitutional prohibition.
    Sorry.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  19. #19
    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Meh. No big deal.

    SCOTUS is hesitant to restrain the Legislative Branch due to the Necessary and Proper Clause where there is no clear and unambiguous constitutional prohibition.
    I hope it was alright to use your correct quote.

    The intent was the limited listed powers granted to the government by we the people by means of a Constitution.
    If it is not a listed power then it is a prohibited power.

    It's all about the corruption
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

  20. #20
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    I hope it was alright to use your correct quote.

    The intent was the limited listed powers granted to the government by we the people by means of a Constitution.
    If it is not a listed power then it is a prohibited power.

    It's all about the corruption
    Sure, I flubbed it. I do not disagree with your premise. I too dislike congress having been given the power to define their powers as they go along. But it is what it is. I focus on my state and work to regain our liberties.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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