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Thread: Wish I was OC...

  1. #1
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    Wish I was OC...

    This incident happened to me about a week ago now. Haven't really had the time to post it until now, unfortunently.

    I was at the auburn Walmart, by the Super Mall, purchasing a new flat screen TV as a gift to my parents. I was CC as I am still new to it all and am not 100% comfortable with OC outside of the area I live yet. I made my purchase and was exiting the Walmart with a new BluRay player under my arm and a employee following me with my new TV in tow. When out of no wear a guy in his 40s comes up and asks if that is a new TV. I say "yes". He then asks how much. I ignore him while still watching him out of the corner of my eye hoping he would walk away. He didnt.... So I answer his question. Still keeping things as short as possible. I reach my truck and help the Walmart employee load the TV into the bed of my truck. This bothering gentleman keeps walking past us and disappears. Now that I am all alone, we approaches me again about 20 feet away while I am fishing for a tie down strap out of my dog box and asks if I have anything to tie it down. I answer yes.

    At this point things are getting very suspicious and I am starting to feel uncomfortable. I prepare for the worse, and in zip my coat just in case he presents a weapon or becomes aggressive. I watch him as I am tiring down the TV and he is walking back and forth eyeing me out of the corner of his eye, apparently "acting" like he is searching for a car but in reality he is watching me. I finish tiring the TV down and jump in my truck and leave the situation.

    All in all I am glad nothing escalated, but at the same time feel like I could of been more upfront and tell him to back away or something along your lines. I am still new to OC and have only been CC for about a year and a half now. What can I do better in the future if a situation similar presents itself?

    -NEMO-
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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by -NEMO- View Post
    This incident happened to me about a week ago now. Haven't really had the time to post it until now, unfortunently.
    What can I do better in the future if a situation similar presents itself?

    -NEMO-
    .
    I would have started taking pictures of the guy with my cell phone camera. Most criminals don't want their picture taken and would probably have walked away.

  3. #3
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    Wish I was OC...

    Either that, or frustrated him in a way to want to antagonize me or promote more rash actions.

  4. #4
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Stop tying down your load and devote your attention to the guy.

    You may be entirely wrong about your assessment of his intentions, but if you are right you will be that much more behind in reacting to him if you are busy concentrating on something besides him.

    Some folks will tell you if you stop what you are doing and omy pay attention to the guy you will antagonize the person. So what? If they had evil intent in mind they are going to do something whether you give them an "excuse" or not. If you are ready for them, it does not matter that they used your behavior as the excuse for initiating whatever evil they were already intent on committing.

    OC often does have a deterrent effect - but it rarely comes from merely having a handgun strapped on in plain sight. The behavior and attitude of the person OCing contributes to the deterrent effect. Look confident and you get deterrence. Look weak or undecided and you are sending a signal that in spite odf the handgun strapped to your side you are weak or undecided about how to handle what is going on.

    If the guy was just wierd you end up with a somewhat amusing story about the nutjob at WalMart. If the guy was in fact a VCA* you wind up with either a story about how OC deterred something bad from happening or how you defended yourself from a robbery in the parking lot. The common thread in all three stories is that you stopped distracting yourself and paid attention to the threat until it was neutralized/eliminated.

    stay safe.

    VCA = Violent Criminal Actor. Learn the term. Use it. It gets everybody thinking about them the same way, as opposed to deciding what is "bad" and what is not.
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  5. #5
    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    What did the police say when you reported it?

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    Wish I was OC...

    Didn't report it.. Should have, and on my way home as I was thinking about it, that is one thing I thought about was reporting him.

  7. #7
    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    If I had someone coming up to me in a parking lot asking if it was a new TV and Cost I would suspect something is wrong.

    It is known that these perpetrators size up people they encounter to determine the likelihood of them accomplishing robbing or stealing another.
    While often law enforcement may recommend not engaging in eye contact I differ as I want you to know I am here and am not intimidated, tell him you do not have the time, goodbye.

    People do read others on how they dress and their demeanor, like it or not.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

  8. #8
    Regular Member bmg50cal's Avatar
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    Good time to take off the jacket because you're overheated, i.e. a smooth transition to OC...
    Last edited by bmg50cal; 11-11-2012 at 08:14 PM.

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    Regular Member jt59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    I am sure I will get flamed for this, but to me that just comes too close to actually violating RCW 9.41.270 for my comfort. Sure, you can claim you took off the jacket due to work. But what you are really doing is intentionally showing a previously concealed gun hoping to affect the behavior of another person in a situation where a self defense shoot would not be warranted.

    That is exactly the reason why I open carry, so I don't have to make that intentional movement and action of showing the gun. But, if I do happen to be carrying concealed, I, personally, will not display the gun in a situation where I want to influence someone's behavior when a self defense shoot would not be justified. To me, that is just one of the disadvantages that comes with concealed carry, you do lose the deterrence factor.
    +1
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat....Teddy Roosevelt

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    Regular Member acmariner99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    I am sure I will get flamed for this, but to me that just comes too close to actually violating RCW 9.41.270 for my comfort. Sure, you can claim you took off the jacket due to work. But what you are really doing is intentionally showing a previously concealed gun hoping to affect the behavior of another person in a situation where a self defense shoot would not be warranted.

    That is exactly the reason why I open carry, so I don't have to make that intentional movement and action of showing the gun. But, if I do happen to be carrying concealed, I, personally, will not display the gun in a situation where I want to influence someone's behavior when a self defense shoot would not be justified. To me, that is just one of the disadvantages that comes with concealed carry, you do lose the deterrence factor.
    With the language of Washington law, I agree with this 100% - The OP did the right thing by not displaying his firearm in this situation. Had he been OC anyway, different story. Even if he had started to become aggressive, a display may have been fishy - (in which case a law like Arizona's defensive display law would be reaaaaally nice - see ARS 13-421)

  11. #11
    Regular Member rapgood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    I am sure I will get flamed for this, but to me that just comes too close to actually violating RCW 9.41.270 for my comfort. Sure, you can claim you took off the jacket due to work. But what you are really doing is intentionally showing a previously concealed gun hoping to affect the behavior of another person in a situation where a self defense shoot would not be warranted.

    That is exactly the reason why I open carry, so I don't have to make that intentional movement and action of showing the gun. But, if I do happen to be carrying concealed, I, personally, will not display the gun in a situation where I want to influence someone's behavior when a self defense shoot would not be justified. To me, that is just one of the disadvantages that comes with concealed carry, you do lose the deterrence factor.
    .270 is a very poorly written law as it provides less-than-sincere LEOs to quickly argue that a perfectly constitutional bearing of an arm is to be construed as an unlawful display. Luckily, we have some intellectually-honest and prudent jurists who have wisely demanded that conduct violating the statute must rise to a level requiring more than the mere display. It requires that the conduct must actually pose a threat to others before being considered to "warrant alarm" in others. State v. Maciolek, 101 Wn.2d at 268 (1984)(“If a weapon is displayed in a manner, under circumstances and at a time and place so that it poses a threat to another person, such a display would warrant alarm for the safety of another.”)

    NavyLCDR is prudent in his concern. Intentionally showing a firearm in order to intimidate another has been held to be violative of RCW 9.41.270, as was the holding in Maciolek.
    Rev. Robert Apgood, Esq.

    A right cannot be lost by exercising it. McDonald v. Chicago, 561 U.S. 3025, 130 S. Ct. 3020, 3021, 177 L. Ed. 2d 894 (2010) (citing Near v. Minn., 283 U.S. 697 (1931)).

    Although IAAL, anything I say here is not legal advice. No conversations we may have privately or otherwise in this forum constitute the formation of an attorney-client relationship, and are not intended to do so.

  12. #12
    Regular Member bmg50cal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    I am sure I will get flamed for this, but to me that just comes too close to actually violating RCW 9.41.270 for my comfort. Sure, you can claim you took off the jacket due to work. But what you are really doing is intentionally showing a previously concealed gun hoping to affect the behavior of another person in a situation where a self defense shoot would not be warranted.

    That is exactly the reason why I open carry, so I don't have to make that intentional movement and action of showing the gun. But, if I do happen to be carrying concealed, I, personally, will not display the gun in a situation where I want to influence someone's behavior when a self defense shoot would not be justified. To me, that is just one of the disadvantages that comes with concealed carry, you do lose the deterrence factor.
    *** Devil's addvocate ***

    Where did I ever suggest in my previous post to attempt influencing any one person's behavior, I never said nor implied anything of the sort and I do not appreciate the accusations or allusions that I would condone violation of RCW 9.41.270.

    How does one error while lawfully CC, if when one removes an outer garment and transitions to OC?

    Show me an RCW that forbids the public transition between two contrasted lawful activities and I'll use that for argument for not covering up when asked to do so by anyone, because I wouldn't want to break the law if the transition between the two is unlawful.

    I've made the public transition from CC to OC without causing anyone obvious alarm and while having made no encounter with LEOs by doing so. When doing so my intent was NEVER to intimidate or warrant alarm. I would never suggest anyone transition to OC for the purpose of intimidation nor would I ever admit to doing so.

    ******

    Last edited by bmg50cal; 11-12-2012 at 04:49 PM.

  13. #13
    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmg50cal View Post
    *** Devil's addvocate ***
    Where did I ever suggest in my previous post to attempt influencing any one person's behavior, I never said nor implied anything of the sort and I do not appreciate the accusations or allusions that I would condone violation of RCW 9.41.270.
    How does one error while lawfully CC, if when one removes an outer garment and transitions to OC?
    Show me an RCW that forbids the public transition between two contrasted lawful activities and I'll use that for argument for not covering up when asked to do so by anyone, because I wouldn't want to break the law if the transition between the two is unlawful.
    I've made the public transition from CC to OC without causing anyone obvious alarm and while having made no encounter with LEOs by doing so. When doing so my intent was NEVER to intimidate or warrant alarm. I would never suggest anyone transition to OC for the purpose of intimidation nor would I ever admit to doing so. ******
    Quote Originally Posted by bmg50cal View Post
    Good time to take off the jacket because you're overheated, i.e. a smooth transition to OC...
    While engaged in an interaction that could be easily seen as unwanted to take a jacket off exposing a firearm could easily be construed as a threat regardless if you like it or not.
    If cited then a Judge or a Jury of your Peers may end up deciding it for you and likely not in your favor.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

  14. #14
    Regular Member bmg50cal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    While engaged in an interaction that could be easily seen as unwanted to take a jacket off exposing a firearm could easily be construed as a threat regardless if you like it or not.
    If cited then a Judge or a Jury of your Peers may end up deciding it for you and likely not in your favor.
    Regardless of interaction, if I'm hot while wearing a jacket, off the jacket comes whether someone else likes it or not. It happens a lot while I'm out fishing. CC to OC and back again and no one on the dock, pier or beach says "boo."

    One could always say something like this, especially while recording the encounter:
    "I'm getting hot, I'm going to take off my jacket now and my intent is not to intimidate. I do not want to alarm anyone, but just to let you know I am legally carrying a firearm."
    Last edited by bmg50cal; 11-12-2012 at 05:49 PM. Reason: spelling correction

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmg50cal View Post
    Regardless of interaction, if I'm hot while wearing a jacket, off the jacket comes whether someone else likes it or not. It happens a lot while I'm out fishing. CC to OC and back again and no one on the dock, pier or beach says "boo."

    One could always say something like this, especially while recording the encounter:
    "I'm getting hot, I'm going to take off my jacket now and my intent is not to intimidate. I do not want to alarm anyone, but just to let you know I am legally carrying a firearm."
    No it has everything to do with the surrounding circumstances.

    RCW 9.41.270 (1) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.

    Stop playing in pretend land and come into reality.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

  16. #16
    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    No it has everything to do with the surrounding circumstances.
    RCW 9.41.270 (1) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.

    Stop playing in pretend land and come into reality.
    +1

    The total circumstances here fit the plain language of the statute.
    Live Free or Die!

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    Regular Member Sharpender's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    If I had someone coming up to me in a parking lot asking if it was a new TV and Cost I would suspect something is wrong.

    It is known that these perpetrators size up people they encounter to determine the likelihood of them accomplishing robbing or stealing another.
    While often law enforcement may recommend not engaging in eye contact I differ as I want you to know I am here and am not intimidated, tell him you do not have the time, goodbye.

    People do read others on how they dress and their demeanor, like it or not.
    Agreed. I'm not a people person, I don't care what people think of me, and I don't care how I make a stranger feel. I would have answered his first question with a polite "yes"...when it became obvious he was hanging around, I would have told him to "fu(k off"...forcefully. At that point he's a predator, not a person. If he doesn't immediately walk away or becomes aggressive, either by actions or words, I'm drawing. How much I paid for the TV, do I have something to tie the tv down with, etc.. is none of anyone's business.

  18. #18
    Regular Member Difdi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharpender View Post
    Agreed. I'm not a people person, I don't care what people think of me, and I don't care how I make a stranger feel. I would have answered his first question with a polite "yes"...when it became obvious he was hanging around, I would have told him to "fu(k off"...forcefully. At that point he's a predator, not a person. If he doesn't immediately walk away or becomes aggressive, either by actions or words, I'm drawing. How much I paid for the TV, do I have something to tie the tv down with, etc.. is none of anyone's business.
    Actually, if you did exactly what you describe, you would be the predator. And he would be your victim.

    Yeah he was acting in a creepy way, but that's not illegal. If you give him an order he is under no legal obligation to obey and he doesn't obey it, that is not justification for violence. A "fu(k off" is not even an order. It's an insult. If he responded in kind, he'd be "becoming aggressive" and you would shoot him? That's not self-defense.

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    Under English common law, which is the basis for Washington law, A person who starts a chain of events is responsible for the end result of the events.
    Be careful of your words and actions.
    Last edited by Trigger Dr; 11-13-2012 at 10:19 PM.

  20. #20
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trigger Dr View Post
    Under English common law, which is the basis for Washington law, A person who starts a chain of events is responsible for the end result of the events.
    Be careful of your words and actions.
    Not that I am doubting you just wanting to inform myself can you provide a cite or a source for me to go to?

    I have studied certain aspects of common law and would love to learn more.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Not that I am doubting you just wanting to inform myself can you provide a cite or a source for me to go to?

    I have studied certain aspects of common law and would love to learn more.
    Look for "Chain of events doctrine"

  22. #22
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trigger Dr View Post
    Look for "Chain of events doctrine"
    Thank you. I should have figured that one out....lol.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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