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Wish I was OC...

-NEMO-

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2012
Messages
12
Location
Pierce County, WA
This incident happened to me about a week ago now. Haven't really had the time to post it until now, unfortunently.

I was at the auburn Walmart, by the Super Mall, purchasing a new flat screen TV as a gift to my parents. I was CC as I am still new to it all and am not 100% comfortable with OC outside of the area I live yet. I made my purchase and was exiting the Walmart with a new BluRay player under my arm and a employee following me with my new TV in tow. When out of no wear a guy in his 40s comes up and asks if that is a new TV. I say "yes". He then asks how much. I ignore him while still watching him out of the corner of my eye hoping he would walk away. He didnt.... So I answer his question. Still keeping things as short as possible. I reach my truck and help the Walmart employee load the TV into the bed of my truck. This bothering gentleman keeps walking past us and disappears. Now that I am all alone, we approaches me again about 20 feet away while I am fishing for a tie down strap out of my dog box and asks if I have anything to tie it down. I answer yes.

At this point things are getting very suspicious and I am starting to feel uncomfortable. I prepare for the worse, and in zip my coat just in case he presents a weapon or becomes aggressive. I watch him as I am tiring down the TV and he is walking back and forth eyeing me out of the corner of his eye, apparently "acting" like he is searching for a car but in reality he is watching me. I finish tiring the TV down and jump in my truck and leave the situation.

All in all I am glad nothing escalated, but at the same time feel like I could of been more upfront and tell him to back away or something along your lines. I am still new to OC and have only been CC for about a year and a half now. What can I do better in the future if a situation similar presents itself?

-NEMO-
.
 

CA2373

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2012
Messages
24
Location
Des Moines
This incident happened to me about a week ago now. Haven't really had the time to post it until now, unfortunently.
What can I do better in the future if a situation similar presents itself?

-NEMO-
.

I would have started taking pictures of the guy with my cell phone camera. Most criminals don't want their picture taken and would probably have walked away.
 

skidmark

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 15, 2007
Messages
10,444
Location
Valhalla
Stop tying down your load and devote your attention to the guy.

You may be entirely wrong about your assessment of his intentions, but if you are right you will be that much more behind in reacting to him if you are busy concentrating on something besides him.

Some folks will tell you if you stop what you are doing and omy pay attention to the guy you will antagonize the person. So what? If they had evil intent in mind they are going to do something whether you give them an "excuse" or not. If you are ready for them, it does not matter that they used your behavior as the excuse for initiating whatever evil they were already intent on committing.

OC often does have a deterrent effect - but it rarely comes from merely having a handgun strapped on in plain sight. The behavior and attitude of the person OCing contributes to the deterrent effect. Look confident and you get deterrence. Look weak or undecided and you are sending a signal that in spite odf the handgun strapped to your side you are weak or undecided about how to handle what is going on.

If the guy was just wierd you end up with a somewhat amusing story about the nutjob at WalMart. If the guy was in fact a VCA* you wind up with either a story about how OC deterred something bad from happening or how you defended yourself from a robbery in the parking lot. The common thread in all three stories is that you stopped distracting yourself and paid attention to the threat until it was neutralized/eliminated.

stay safe.

VCA = Violent Criminal Actor. Learn the term. Use it. It gets everybody thinking about them the same way, as opposed to deciding what is "bad" and what is not.
 

-NEMO-

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2012
Messages
12
Location
Pierce County, WA
Didn't report it.. Should have, and on my way home as I was thinking about it, that is one thing I thought about was reporting him.
 

BigDave

Opt-Out Members
Joined
Nov 22, 2006
Messages
3,456
Location
Yakima, Washington, USA
If I had someone coming up to me in a parking lot asking if it was a new TV and Cost I would suspect something is wrong.

It is known that these perpetrators size up people they encounter to determine the likelihood of them accomplishing robbing or stealing another.
While often law enforcement may recommend not engaging in eye contact I differ as I want you to know I am here and am not intimidated, tell him you do not have the time, goodbye.

People do read others on how they dress and their demeanor, like it or not.
 

jt59

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 19, 2010
Messages
1,005
Location
Central South Sound
I am sure I will get flamed for this, but to me that just comes too close to actually violating RCW 9.41.270 for my comfort. Sure, you can claim you took off the jacket due to work. But what you are really doing is intentionally showing a previously concealed gun hoping to affect the behavior of another person in a situation where a self defense shoot would not be warranted.

That is exactly the reason why I open carry, so I don't have to make that intentional movement and action of showing the gun. But, if I do happen to be carrying concealed, I, personally, will not display the gun in a situation where I want to influence someone's behavior when a self defense shoot would not be justified. To me, that is just one of the disadvantages that comes with concealed carry, you do lose the deterrence factor.

+1
 

acmariner99

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2010
Messages
655
Location
Renton, Wa
I am sure I will get flamed for this, but to me that just comes too close to actually violating RCW 9.41.270 for my comfort. Sure, you can claim you took off the jacket due to work. But what you are really doing is intentionally showing a previously concealed gun hoping to affect the behavior of another person in a situation where a self defense shoot would not be warranted.

That is exactly the reason why I open carry, so I don't have to make that intentional movement and action of showing the gun. But, if I do happen to be carrying concealed, I, personally, will not display the gun in a situation where I want to influence someone's behavior when a self defense shoot would not be justified. To me, that is just one of the disadvantages that comes with concealed carry, you do lose the deterrence factor.

With the language of Washington law, I agree with this 100% - The OP did the right thing by not displaying his firearm in this situation. Had he been OC anyway, different story. Even if he had started to become aggressive, a display may have been fishy - (in which case a law like Arizona's defensive display law would be reaaaaally nice - see ARS 13-421)
 

rapgood

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 9, 2012
Messages
598
Location
Stanwood, WA
I am sure I will get flamed for this, but to me that just comes too close to actually violating RCW 9.41.270 for my comfort. Sure, you can claim you took off the jacket due to work. But what you are really doing is intentionally showing a previously concealed gun hoping to affect the behavior of another person in a situation where a self defense shoot would not be warranted.

That is exactly the reason why I open carry, so I don't have to make that intentional movement and action of showing the gun. But, if I do happen to be carrying concealed, I, personally, will not display the gun in a situation where I want to influence someone's behavior when a self defense shoot would not be justified. To me, that is just one of the disadvantages that comes with concealed carry, you do lose the deterrence factor.

.270 is a very poorly written law as it provides less-than-sincere LEOs to quickly argue that a perfectly constitutional bearing of an arm is to be construed as an unlawful display. Luckily, we have some intellectually-honest and prudent jurists who have wisely demanded that conduct violating the statute must rise to a level requiring more than the mere display. It requires that the conduct must actually pose a threat to others before being considered to "warrant alarm" in others. State v. Maciolek, 101 Wn.2d at 268 (1984)(“If a weapon is displayed in a manner, under circumstances and at a time and place so that it poses a threat to another person, such a display would warrant alarm for the safety of another.”)

NavyLCDR is prudent in his concern. Intentionally showing a firearm in order to intimidate another has been held to be violative of RCW 9.41.270, as was the holding in Maciolek.
 

bmg50cal

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 20, 2011
Messages
306
Location
WA - North Whidbey/ Deception Pass
I am sure I will get flamed for this, but to me that just comes too close to actually violating RCW 9.41.270 for my comfort. Sure, you can claim you took off the jacket due to work. But what you are really doing is intentionally showing a previously concealed gun hoping to affect the behavior of another person in a situation where a self defense shoot would not be warranted.

That is exactly the reason why I open carry, so I don't have to make that intentional movement and action of showing the gun. But, if I do happen to be carrying concealed, I, personally, will not display the gun in a situation where I want to influence someone's behavior when a self defense shoot would not be justified. To me, that is just one of the disadvantages that comes with concealed carry, you do lose the deterrence factor.

*** Devil's addvocate ***

Where did I ever suggest in my previous post to attempt influencing any one person's behavior, I never said nor implied anything of the sort and I do not appreciate the accusations or allusions that I would condone violation of RCW 9.41.270.

How does one error while lawfully CC, if when one removes an outer garment and transitions to OC?

Show me an RCW that forbids the public transition between two contrasted lawful activities and I'll use that for argument for not covering up when asked to do so by anyone, because I wouldn't want to break the law if the transition between the two is unlawful.

I've made the public transition from CC to OC without causing anyone obvious alarm and while having made no encounter with LEOs by doing so. When doing so my intent was NEVER to intimidate or warrant alarm. I would never suggest anyone transition to OC for the purpose of intimidation nor would I ever admit to doing so.

******

;)
 
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BigDave

Opt-Out Members
Joined
Nov 22, 2006
Messages
3,456
Location
Yakima, Washington, USA
*** Devil's addvocate ***
Where did I ever suggest in my previous post to attempt influencing any one person's behavior, I never said nor implied anything of the sort and I do not appreciate the accusations or allusions that I would condone violation of RCW 9.41.270.
How does one error while lawfully CC, if when one removes an outer garment and transitions to OC?
Show me an RCW that forbids the public transition between two contrasted lawful activities and I'll use that for argument for not covering up when asked to do so by anyone, because I wouldn't want to break the law if the transition between the two is unlawful.
I've made the public transition from CC to OC without causing anyone obvious alarm and while having made no encounter with LEOs by doing so. When doing so my intent was NEVER to intimidate or warrant alarm. I would never suggest anyone transition to OC for the purpose of intimidation nor would I ever admit to doing so. ****** ;)

Good time to take off the jacket because you're overheated, i.e. a smooth transition to OC...

While engaged in an interaction that could be easily seen as unwanted to take a jacket off exposing a firearm could easily be construed as a threat regardless if you like it or not.
If cited then a Judge or a Jury of your Peers may end up deciding it for you and likely not in your favor.
 

bmg50cal

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 20, 2011
Messages
306
Location
WA - North Whidbey/ Deception Pass
While engaged in an interaction that could be easily seen as unwanted to take a jacket off exposing a firearm could easily be construed as a threat regardless if you like it or not.
If cited then a Judge or a Jury of your Peers may end up deciding it for you and likely not in your favor.

Regardless of interaction, if I'm hot while wearing a jacket, off the jacket comes whether someone else likes it or not. It happens a lot while I'm out fishing. CC to OC and back again and no one on the dock, pier or beach says "boo."

One could always say something like this, especially while recording the encounter:
"I'm getting hot, I'm going to take off my jacket now and my intent is not to intimidate. I do not want to alarm anyone, but just to let you know I am legally carrying a firearm."
 
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BigDave

Opt-Out Members
Joined
Nov 22, 2006
Messages
3,456
Location
Yakima, Washington, USA
Regardless of interaction, if I'm hot while wearing a jacket, off the jacket comes whether someone else likes it or not. It happens a lot while I'm out fishing. CC to OC and back again and no one on the dock, pier or beach says "boo."

One could always say something like this, especially while recording the encounter:
"I'm getting hot, I'm going to take off my jacket now and my intent is not to intimidate. I do not want to alarm anyone, but just to let you know I am legally carrying a firearm."

No it has everything to do with the surrounding circumstances.

RCW 9.41.270 (1) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.

Stop playing in pretend land and come into reality.
 

gogodawgs

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Oct 25, 2009
Messages
5,669
Location
Federal Way, Washington, USA
No it has everything to do with the surrounding circumstances.
RCW 9.41.270 (1) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.

Stop playing in pretend land and come into reality.

+1

The total circumstances here fit the plain language of the statute.
 

Sharpender

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2007
Messages
74
Location
University Place, Washington, USA
If I had someone coming up to me in a parking lot asking if it was a new TV and Cost I would suspect something is wrong.

It is known that these perpetrators size up people they encounter to determine the likelihood of them accomplishing robbing or stealing another.
While often law enforcement may recommend not engaging in eye contact I differ as I want you to know I am here and am not intimidated, tell him you do not have the time, goodbye.

People do read others on how they dress and their demeanor, like it or not.

Agreed. I'm not a people person, I don't care what people think of me, and I don't care how I make a stranger feel. I would have answered his first question with a polite "yes"...when it became obvious he was hanging around, I would have told him to "fu(k off"...forcefully. At that point he's a predator, not a person. If he doesn't immediately walk away or becomes aggressive, either by actions or words, I'm drawing. How much I paid for the TV, do I have something to tie the tv down with, etc.. is none of anyone's business.
 

Difdi

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2010
Messages
987
Location
Seattle, Washington, USA
Agreed. I'm not a people person, I don't care what people think of me, and I don't care how I make a stranger feel. I would have answered his first question with a polite "yes"...when it became obvious he was hanging around, I would have told him to "fu(k off"...forcefully. At that point he's a predator, not a person. If he doesn't immediately walk away or becomes aggressive, either by actions or words, I'm drawing. How much I paid for the TV, do I have something to tie the tv down with, etc.. is none of anyone's business.

Actually, if you did exactly what you describe, you would be the predator. And he would be your victim.

Yeah he was acting in a creepy way, but that's not illegal. If you give him an order he is under no legal obligation to obey and he doesn't obey it, that is not justification for violence. A "fu(k off" is not even an order. It's an insult. If he responded in kind, he'd be "becoming aggressive" and you would shoot him? That's not self-defense.
 

Trigger Dr

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 3, 2007
Messages
2,760
Location
Wa, ,
Under English common law, which is the basis for Washington law, A person who starts a chain of events is responsible for the end result of the events.
Be careful of your words and actions.
 
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sudden valley gunner

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,674
Location
Whatcom County
Under English common law, which is the basis for Washington law, A person who starts a chain of events is responsible for the end result of the events.
Be careful of your words and actions.

Not that I am doubting you just wanting to inform myself can you provide a cite or a source for me to go to?

I have studied certain aspects of common law and would love to learn more.
 
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