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Thread: Do we really need a CWP class?

  1. #1
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    Do we really need a CWP class?

    I've been wanting my CWP since I moved back to SC two years ago and now that I'm married with a baby on the way I want my wife to be able to protect herself as well.

    Problem is, for a couple, it normally comes to around $300 for them to get their CWPs:
    Classes are normally $85+
    SLED fee of $50
    Ammunition at a conservative $13/box

    I looked at the law concerning CWPs and there are two provisions that caught my eye:
    SECTION 23-31-210
    (5) “Proof of training” means an original document or certified copy of the document supplied by an applicant that certifies that he is either:
    (c) a person who can demonstrate to the Director of SLED or his designee that he has a proficiency in both the use of handguns and state laws pertaining to handguns;
    (e) a person who has a SLED certified or approved competitive handgun shooting classification;

    As I read it, if I can demonstrate to the director of SLED or whoever drew the short straw to be his stand in that I have the proficiency already, I'm considered to have "proof of training". Seems you could also bypass the class requirement if you're a competitive shooter (I shoot IDPA) but I can't find any sort of list of what is "SLED certified or approved".

    Is there anyone here that can possibly elaborate on this, perhaps someone who went this route instead of paying a significant cost for a class?

  2. #2
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gamecocked&loaded View Post
    I've been wanting my CWP since I moved back to SC two years ago and now that I'm married with a baby on the way I want my wife to be able to protect herself as well.

    Problem is, for a couple, it normally comes to around $300 for them to get their CWPs:
    Classes are normally $85+
    SLED fee of $50
    Ammunition at a conservative $13/box

    I looked at the law concerning CWPs and there are two provisions that caught my eye:
    SECTION 23-31-210
    (5) “Proof of training” means an original document or certified copy of the document supplied by an applicant that certifies that he is either:
    (c) a person who can demonstrate to the Director of SLED or his designee that he has a proficiency in both the use of handguns and state laws pertaining to handguns;
    (e) a person who has a SLED certified or approved competitive handgun shooting classification;

    As I read it, if I can demonstrate to the director of SLED or whoever drew the short straw to be his stand in that I have the proficiency already, I'm considered to have "proof of training". Seems you could also bypass the class requirement if you're a competitive shooter (I shoot IDPA) but I can't find any sort of list of what is "SLED certified or approved".

    Is there anyone here that can possibly elaborate on this, perhaps someone who went this route instead of paying a significant cost for a class?
    Unfortunately I don't think it is not going to be that easy. You may be able to convince SLED that your IDPA experience should be substituted for the live firing requirement - that is far from the only thing that must be satisfied.

    i.e. (5) “Proof of training” means an original document or certified copy of the document supplied by an applicant that certifies that he is either:

    (a) a person who, within three years before filing an application, has successfully completed a basic or advanced handgun education course offered by a state, county, or municipal law enforcement agency or a nationally recognized organization that promotes gun safety. This education course must be a minimum of eight hours and must include, but is not limited to:

    (i) information on the statutory and case law of this State relating to handguns and to the use of deadly force;

    http://www.legallyarmed.com/resource...www.legallyarm
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Unfortunately I don't think it is not going to be that easy. You may be able to convince SLED that your IDPA experience should be substituted for the live firing requirement - that is far from the only thing that must be satisfied.

    i.e. (5) “Proof of training” means an original document or certified copy of the document supplied by an applicant that certifies that he is either:

    (a) a person who, within three years before filing an application, has successfully completed a basic or advanced handgun education course offered by a state, county, or municipal law enforcement agency or a nationally recognized organization that promotes gun safety. This education course must be a minimum of eight hours and must include, but is not limited to:

    (i) information on the statutory and case law of this State relating to handguns and to the use of deadly force;

    http://www.legallyarmed.com/resource...www.legallyarm
    With respect sir, you're not reading the law correctly.
    Under #5, the sentence is ended with the word "either" meaning I can be certified with provision (a) as you quoted or provision (c) or (e). Meaning I don't have to satisfy (a) if I satisfy (c) or (e).
    Subsection 1 (i) that you emphasized only applies to the content of the educational course required to be certified under (a).
    Since I'm trying to make the point that there are ways to get certified other than a CWP class, (a) (and its subsection 1 (i), are irrelevant.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gamecocked&loaded View Post
    With respect sir, you're not reading the law correctly.
    Under #5, the sentence is ended with the word "either" meaning I can be certified with provision (a) as you quoted or provision (c) or (e). Meaning I don't have to satisfy (a) if I satisfy (c) or (e).
    Subsection 1 (i) that you emphasized only applies to the content of the educational course required to be certified under (a).
    Since I'm trying to make the point that there are ways to get certified other than a CWP class, (a) (and its subsection 1 (i), are irrelevant.
    SLED shall promulgate regulations containing general guidelines for courses and qualifications for instructors which would satisfy the requirements of this item. For purposes of subitems (a) and (b), “proof of training” is not satisfied unless the organization and its instructors meet or exceed the guidelines and qualifications contained in the regulations promulgated by SLED pursuant to this item.

    Insofar as (c) can you guess what the response will be to "designee" > points right back to instructor certified by SLED.

    As to (e) "a person who has a SLED certified or approved competitive handgun shooting classification;" Whether there may be someone that has received their permit under that condition is likely very rare or totally unknown. Have never seen documentation of successfully doing so.

    Try it and see, then report back here.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    SLED shall promulgate regulations containing general guidelines for courses and qualifications for instructors which would satisfy the requirements of this item. For purposes of subitems (a) and (b), “proof of training” is not satisfied unless the organization and its instructors meet or exceed the guidelines and qualifications contained in the regulations promulgated by SLED pursuant to this item.

    Insofar as (c) can you guess what the response will be to "designee" > points right back to instructor certified by SLED.

    As to (e) "a person who has a SLED certified or approved competitive handgun shooting classification;" Whether there may be someone that has received their permit under that condition is likely very rare or totally unknown. Have never seen documentation of successfully doing so.

    Try it and see, then report back here.
    The director of SLED cannot designate his job to a certified instructor, unless that instructor is also employed by SLED. You can't have a non-government employee doing government work.
    As far as (e) is concerned, that's why I was asking if anyone knew of a list of SLED certified or approved competitive classifications.

    Thank you for the input though.

  6. #6
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Grapeshot

    SLED shall promulgate regulations containing general guidelines for courses and qualifications for instructors which would satisfy the requirements of this item. For purposes of subitems (a) and (b), “proof of training” is not satisfied unless the organization and its instructors meet or exceed the guidelines and qualifications contained in the regulations promulgated by SLED pursuant to this item.

    Insofar as (c) can you guess what the response will be to "designee" > points right back to instructor certified by SLED.

    As to (e) "a person who has a SLED certified or approved competitive handgun shooting classification;" Whether there may be someone that has received their permit under that condition is likely very rare or totally unknown. Have never seen documentation of successfully doing so.

    Try it and see, then report back here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gamecocked&loaded View Post
    The director of SLED cannot designate his job to a certified instructor, unless that instructor is also employed by SLED. You can't have a non-government employee doing government work.
    As far as (e) is concerned, that's why I was asking if anyone knew of a list of SLED certified or approved competitive classifications.

    Thank you for the input though.
    Cite please on applicable definition of "designee" that would support your contention.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 11-11-2012 at 10:40 PM.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Cite please on applicable definition of "designee" that would support your contention.
    I'm beginning to think you're trolling, especially since you don't even live in the state, and you refuse to stay on topic, but if you really want to get into it:
    SOUTH CAROLINA LAW-ENFORCEMENT DIVISION

    ARTICLE 1.

    GENERAL PROVISIONS
    SECTION 23-3-20. Bond and oath of chief and agents; reappointment.

    Every officer and agent commissioned pursuant to this article shall file a bond, or be covered by a surety bond, of not less than two thousand dollars with the South Carolina Law Enforcement Division, subscribed by a licensed surety company, conditioned for the faithful performance of his duties, for the prompt and proper accounting of all funds coming into his hands, and for the payment of a judgment recovered against him in a court of competent jurisdiction upon a cause of action arising out of breach or abuse of official duty or power and for the payment of damages sustained by a member of the public from an unlawful act of the officer or agent. However, coverage under the bond does not include damage to persons or property arising out of the negligent operation of a motor vehicle. The bond may be individual, schedule, or blanket and on a form approved by the Attorney General. The premiums on the bonds must be paid by the division.

    All officers and agents of the division shall take and subscribe to the oath provided by law for peace officers.

    HISTORY: 1962 Code Section 53-17; 1974 (58) 2878; 1993 Act No. 181, Section 340.

    So unless this instructor, acting as an agent of SLED, has a $2000+ bond with SLED and has taken the oath for peace officers, he's unable to perform this task.
    Are you satisfied now?

    Regardless of whether the SLED director can appoint an instructor as his designee or not. It still only requires that you show them that you have "a proficiency in both the use of handguns and state laws pertaining to handguns", not that you have to take a class.

  8. #8
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gamecocked&loaded View Post
    I'm beginning to think you're trolling, especially since you don't even live in the state, and you refuse to stay on topic, but if you really want to get into it:
    SOUTH CAROLINA LAW-ENFORCEMENT DIVISION

    ARTICLE 1.

    GENERAL PROVISIONS
    SECTION 23-3-20. Bond and oath of chief and agents; reappointment.

    Every officer and agent commissioned pursuant to this article shall file a bond, or be covered by a surety bond, of not less than two thousand dollars with the South Carolina Law Enforcement Division, subscribed by a licensed surety company, conditioned for the faithful performance of his duties, for the prompt and proper accounting of all funds coming into his hands, and for the payment of a judgment recovered against him in a court of competent jurisdiction upon a cause of action arising out of breach or abuse of official duty or power and for the payment of damages sustained by a member of the public from an unlawful act of the officer or agent. However, coverage under the bond does not include damage to persons or property arising out of the negligent operation of a motor vehicle. The bond may be individual, schedule, or blanket and on a form approved by the Attorney General. The premiums on the bonds must be paid by the division.

    All officers and agents of the division shall take and subscribe to the oath provided by law for peace officers.

    HISTORY: 1962 Code Section 53-17; 1974 (58) 2878; 1993 Act No. 181, Section 340.

    So unless this instructor, acting as an agent of SLED, has a $2000+ bond with SLED and has taken the oath for peace officers, he's unable to perform this task.
    Are you satisfied now?

    Regardless of whether the SLED director can appoint an instructor as his designee or not. It still only requires that you show them that you have "a proficiency in both the use of handguns and state laws pertaining to handguns", not that you have to take a class.
    1- OCDO does not limit user/posters to just their home state. All are invited to post, share and learn from all sub-forums.

    2 - You ask questions and provide answers why that won't work. The information is appreciated by all concerned - the operative part of that is the "information" that is made evident/shared. In my case, I have relatives in SC that this could effect, in addition to the readership here.

    3 - Even suggesting that I might be a troll or trolling could be/should be taken as a personal insult and hardly descriptive of my function on the forum. I will grant you that your depth of experience here perhaps limits your insight into our operation, rule enforcement.

    We are asked to be self-moderating, responsible and polite, to reduce interactive problems. When that fails, there are those of us who step in officially as I have done with your "trolling" remark.

    4 - Citing is what we do on OCDO. It is even in the Forum Rules. We cannot accept things because someone says it is so. People need to see and understand the source.

    5 - It has already been suggested that if you see this a meaningful avenue that you pursue it along the lines you have delineated and let us know how that works out. There are likely others that would have an interest in this.

    Nothing that I have said or done should be cause to take personal umbrage - quite to the contrary, that was never my intent.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  9. #9
    Regular Member John Canuck's Avatar
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    Suggesting that particular gentlemen is trolling is silly. Move along.

    As to South Carolina and your permission slip, make a call to SLED and make an appointment with the man to demonstrate the skills. They are awesome with the customer service and will be happy to help you.

    Alternately, lets get rid of the silly requirement for a permit at all... Who's with me????

  10. #10
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    The need for a safety class is a good topic to discuss, in any jurisdiction. Most proponents of this requirement really have no data to support that taking a safety class offers any benefit. So, a law can say "shall" but still not be mandatory.

    The burden of showing that a provision is mandatory is upon those making the claim that it is mandatory.

    Now the next question is : does the law relate to any constitutionally protected activity? If so, then a look at the standard needed to prove if a provision is mandatory or directory would need to be established (and a court usually determines this - both parties can try to sway the judge of course).

    If the subject matter is a basic protected right, then the standard should be (but is not always ruled) a strict review. And without substantial evidence (not conjecture, guessing, "common sense" etc. but actual proof) the law's provision should be seen as being directory and not mandatory.

    So this post is just to touch on the subject matter, irrespective of the statue in question that would need some more homework to be done on it, of what makes a law or law's section mandatory or not.

    One should always consider if they wish to challenge a law to its mandatory or directory nature when the law has the word "shall" in it as these are not always mandatory provisions.

    There is a wealth and great quantity of case law in federal and state courts that wrestle this this issue as it is basically examined on a case by case basis and the variables are quite extensive to examine. I have had courts rule that this or that law or law provision is not mandatory or IS mandatory if it aids me in my case (and one must be prepared to argue that a law's provision is mandatory in some situations).

    In reality, these needed "safety classes" are bogus. People handling guns have a self interest to because proficient with their firearms and this would include becoming more than just acquainted (and this is all you get our of a short class IMO) with gun safety.

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    If you shoot IDPA you will most likely not learn anything new shooting wise in a basic CWP class. I never say "absolutely will not" because you may see some examples of what NOT to do, or you may learn a useful teaching technique that you can recycle when working with a new shooter yourself, but you won't learn anything tactically relevant.

    You will also probably not learn much about firearms law. My CWP instructor said a few things that are not correct. At best they will just read the statuory law to you, almost word for word, and introduce some relevant case law. If you write to SLED and express interest in becoming a CWP course instructor, they will mail you the packet of info that has all the case law in it for free. You can also buy the book "SC Gun Law" for <$20 which is a handy reference.

    If your wife is a newer shooter she may learn something from the course; think "NRA Basic Pistol" type stuff.

    So the question comes down to: what is fastest, easiest, and cheapest?

    The path of least resistance is certainly just to grit your teeth and take the darn class. If you care about certificates on your wall you can try and find one that gives credit for NRA Basic Pistol as well which then lets you get an NRA instructor qualification if that's your thing. Try to find a class that gets it over in one day. As you've pointed out that costs money, ammo, and time.

    More complex will be to write SLED and try to use your USPSA/IDPA status. If you can get something from your local club on official letterhead with your status that may help. The worst that happens is that they mail your card back to you. This route is likely a little less expensive; the time is probably a wash as you'll likely spend a few hours writing letters, making phone calls, etc. The worst that happens is you waste a few weeks and they mail your money order back.

    In the meantime you may want to carefully review the situations in which you can carry without a permit (extremely limited). THere are at least some practical car carry options.

    GOod luck. SC firearms law is pretty poor. To answer your question, no, I don't see a reason for a class. It is a racket and merely serves as a barrier to entry for many people, suppressing exercise of a natural right. But regrettably that is the current state of things.
    Last edited by armaborealis; 11-15-2012 at 06:53 PM.

  12. #12
    Regular Member John Canuck's Avatar
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    So how did the skills demonstration go?

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