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Thread: CPL class: OC and ID discussion

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    Regular Member Jakeus314's Avatar
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    CPL class: OC and ID discussion

    It was a little frustrating today trying to convince my CPL instructor that OC is not dangerous. He and a 30 yr ex cop insisted that I would be hauled off and charged. Especially if I didn't offer identification when requested. I'm not exactly sure what I believe is the right thing to do, but I have no general duty to identify myself right? Unless I'm being detained? MSP 86...


    -jakeus

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    CPL instructors make mistakes. OC in general is legal in Michigan. When it comes to ID, if you are on foot (not operating a vehicle), and not in a PFZ then ID is NOT required. If you are in a PFZ, then it becomes debatable. Some say that you have to prove you have a CPL when OCing in a PFZ, others say not. There have been no test cases on this so it's still up to the courts to decide.

    My personal advice is that if you OC in a PFZ and an officer demands ID, give it unless you have the desire and money to be a test case. Again that is just my two cents.

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    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jakeus314 View Post
    It was a little frustrating today trying to convince my CPL instructor that OC is not dangerous. He and a 30 yr ex cop insisted that I would be hauled off and charged. Especially if I didn't offer identification when requested. I'm not exactly sure what I believe is the right thing to do, but I have no general duty to identify myself right? Unless I'm being detained? MSP 86...


    -jakeus
    Jakeus314 I suggest you invite the 30 year cop and the CPL instructor come here and get educated.
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoiledFrogs View Post
    There is no duty to disclose unless you are carrying concealed, or are carrying openly in a PFZ.
    If you want to take the side that believes it best to show ID and CPL in a CEZ that is fine, and you're in good company doing so, but there is no legal requirement to do so.
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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    I'm sure some of the state residents will be along shortly with a discussion of state laws (which, too often, the LEOs don't know).
    Quote Originally Posted by Jakeus314
    He and a 30 yr ex cop insisted that I would be hauled off and charged.
    My question would have been: Charged for what, exactly? For what crime would they have arrested you? (Disorderly conduct? GATTTOTP? Contempt of cop?)
    And how many OCers across the state have suffered a similar fate? (Followed up by: how many of those departments managed not to lose the subsequent civil rights suits?)

    Especially if I didn't offer identification when requested.
    If you're not carrying any, you can't be forced to provide it...
    though they could insist on having your name, I don't see what good it would do.
    They can't prove a negative - can't prove that you're not a felon, not prohibited, not a criminal - esp. just by knowing your name.
    What that is is a fishing expedition, trying to find something they can charge you with.
    Hope you have good law-abiding officers, the kind who won't invent "facts".

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    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jakeus314 View Post
    It was a little frustrating today trying to convince my CPL instructor that OC is not dangerous. He and a 30 yr ex cop insisted that I would be hauled off and charged. Especially if I didn't offer identification when requested. I'm not exactly sure what I believe is the right thing to do, but I have no general duty to identify myself right? Unless I'm being detained? MSP 86...


    -jakeus
    just drop off a copy of MSP legal update 86 to him. things may have changed since he was a cop. oh wait... probably not since MCL123.1102 was passed in 1990. #excopfail
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    Regular Member Jakeus314's Avatar
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    CPL class: OC and ID discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    I'm sure some of the state residents will be along shortly with a discussion of state laws (which, too often, the LEOs don't know).

    My question would have been: Charged for what, exactly? For what crime would they have arrested you? (Disorderly conduct? GATTTOTP? Contempt of cop?)
    And how many OCers across the state have suffered a similar fate? (Followed up by: how many of those departments managed not to lose the subsequent civil rights suits?)


    If you're not carrying any, you can't be forced to provide it...
    though they could insist on having your name, I don't see what good it would do.
    They can't prove a negative - can't prove that you're not a felon, not prohibited, not a criminal - esp. just by knowing your name.
    What that is is a fishing expedition, trying to find something they can charge you with.
    Hope you have good law-abiding officers, the kind who won't invent "facts".
    The ex cop looked up and to the right and invented some charge like "failure to provide ID while possessing a deadly weapon". I kind of gasped when he said it because I was so surprised. I'm sure the entire class thought I was the uninformed nut job. I read the last two paragraphs to the class from 86 and it kind of shut him up. He said the word "general" in "no general duty" meant something like cops can still charge you with something for being difficult. Ok dickhead. I should have gotten mad, but I'm glad that I actually didn't. The ex cop left the room after mildly mocking my attire.

    The instructor remained skeptical, but did take interest in msp86 when I showed it to him during breaks.

    They also mentioned the kid near Birmingham with the 30-06 m1... Has his father really spent 10k in legal assistance?


    -jakeus

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    Regular Member griffin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jakeus314 View Post
    I kind of gasped when he said it because I was so surprised.
    You should have laughed out loud.
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    Regular Member Jakeus314's Avatar
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    CPL class: OC and ID discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by BoiledFrogs View Post
    @Michigander, it is wiser to err on the side of caution, lest you become that test case.

    They can't make up laws, although they have been trained to lie. Just curious though, what were you wearing that he made fun of.

    If they mentioned the case in Birmingham, which the kid won, they then had contradicted themselves.
    I wear a brown leather brimmed hat. His mocking was slight and subtle, but it was clear that what I said annoyed him... (4A, no general duty). He suggested my hat would hat make me appear suspicious too.

    They won, yes... But the instructor and ex cop said to the class that it isn't worth the legal fees... They quoted 10k.


    -jakeus

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    Regular Member Jakeus314's Avatar
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    CPL class: OC and ID discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by griffin View Post
    You should have laughed out loud.
    I didn't want to offend others and/or sound crazy. I know I'm not crazy, but the rest of the class trusted the cop... They mostly had "the cops are on our side" mentality. I think they generally are too, but when they make up laws to cover up their ignorance it's very hard to tell because they are so well rehearsed.

    It's a fight I probably should have fought. I'm torn between my respect for cops and my disdain for idiots. I apologize to those of you who see the faults of my choice to not call him out directly as the ignorant liar he was.


    -jakeus
    Last edited by Jakeus314; 11-12-2012 at 10:15 AM.

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    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jakeus314 View Post
    I wear a brown leather brimmed hat. His mocking was slight and subtle, but it was clear that what I said annoyed him... (4A, no general duty). He suggested my hat would hat make me appear suspicious too.

    They won, yes... But the instructor and ex cop said to the class that it isn't worth the legal fees... They quoted 10k.


    -jakeus
    I'd say that depends on whether or not the young man and his family win their civil suit.
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    Regular Member griffin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jakeus314 View Post
    I'm torn between my respect for cops and my disdain for idiots
    I am not encumbered by the former.
    I apologize to those of you who see the faults of my choice to not call him out directly as the ignorant liar he was.
    As gun owners it's something we all deal with or anticipate we may have to deal with one day. I think you were in a good position to point out how untrustworthy cops are without having any direct repercussions from it, that the cop did not know the law and he would be vindictive and try to find an arrestable offense, even if he had to make one up.

    They pretty much admitted that, though, anyway. A good follow-up from you would have been to point that out. "Obey my authoritay!" or I will arrest you on bogus, made-up charges and it will cost you money.

    That's not what America is supposed to be.
    Last edited by griffin; 11-12-2012 at 10:56 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    If you want to take the side that believes it best to show ID and CPL in a CEZ that is fine, and you're in good company doing so, but there is no legal requirement to do so.
    +1

    There is no law that requires one to possess id or cpl let alone provide these documents upon request while Oc ing in a pfz
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (who will watch the watchmen?)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jakeus314 View Post
    I wear a brown leather brimmed hat. His mocking was slight and subtle, but it was clear that what I said annoyed him... (4A, no general duty). He suggested my hat would hat make me appear suspicious too.

    They won, yes... But the instructor and ex cop said to the class that it isn't worth the legal fees... They quoted 10k.


    -jakeus
    Actually, according to Sean when I talked to him his fee's (which he is paying himself, not anyone else) came out to about $5,000 not 10.

    Further he is now suing Birmingham over the false arrest, and is likely to win, which would cover his legal fees plus about $25,000 for his trouble.

    He's on the boards so if I got any of that wrong, I'm sure he will chime in.
    Last edited by Small_Arms_Collector; 11-13-2012 at 04:58 PM.

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    CPL class: OC and ID discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Small_Arms_Collector View Post
    Actually, according to Sean when I talked to him his fee's (which he is paying himself, not anyone else) came out to about 5,000 not 10.

    Further he is now suing Birmingham over the false arrest, and is likely to win, which would cover his legal fees plus about $25,000 for his trouble.

    He's on the boards so if I got any of that wrong, I'm sure he will chime in.
    I think his lawyer (A 2A veteran) was being very generous with his fees.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

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    Regular Member MikeTheGreek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jakeus314 View Post
    It was a little frustrating today trying to convince my CPL instructor that OC is not dangerous. He and a 30 yr ex cop insisted that I would be hauled off and charged. Especially if I didn't offer identification when requested. I'm not exactly sure what I believe is the right thing to do, but I have no general duty to identify myself right? Unless I'm being detained? MSP 86...


    -jakeus

    You wouldn't happen to be talking about Action Impact would you? Their instructor is an Ex-Detroit Swat team and I believe 30 year ex cop. He's notorious for hating OC and even telling his class sometimes that it's illegal.

    I want to take my class there just to see if he'll try to argue with me about it being legal/illegal.
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    Regular Member Jakeus314's Avatar
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    CPL class: OC and ID discussion

    Yeah that's the place.


    -jakeus

  18. #18
    Regular Member MikeTheGreek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jakeus314 View Post
    Yeah that's the place.


    -jakeus
    Haha...good ol action impact. I go there to the range all the time, it's the only range I've been to. Love the people there, the prices are decent, and the range is really nice. Their CPL instructor? I can't stand the guy, at all. I've actually heard of him kicking people out of his classes and giving them refunds for trying to argue that OC was legal and safe.
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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jakeus314
    The ex cop looked up and to the right and invented some charge like "failure to provide ID while possessing a deadly weapon". I kind of gasped when he said it because I was so surprised.
    Quote Originally Posted by griffin View Post
    You should have laughed out loud.
    I think if I were there and they allowed liquid refreshment during class I probably would have snorted Mountain Dew out my my nose.

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