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CPL class: OC and ID discussion

Jakeus314

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2012
Messages
81
Location
Michigan
It was a little frustrating today trying to convince my CPL instructor that OC is not dangerous. He and a 30 yr ex cop insisted that I would be hauled off and charged. Especially if I didn't offer identification when requested. I'm not exactly sure what I believe is the right thing to do, but I have no general duty to identify myself right? Unless I'm being detained? MSP 86...


-jakeus
 

BoiledFrogs

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
Messages
63
Location
Michigan
There is no duty to disclose unless you are carrying concealed, or are carrying openly in a PFZ. This has been sifted through not only online, but now in court, most notably by the Sean Combs case in Birmingham.

Whatever the LEO or your CPL instructor told you is bogus, you were wise to bring your questions here.
 

budlight

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 7, 2009
Messages
454
Location
Wyandotte, Michigan, USA
CPL instructors make mistakes. OC in general is legal in Michigan. When it comes to ID, if you are on foot (not operating a vehicle), and not in a PFZ then ID is NOT required. If you are in a PFZ, then it becomes debatable. Some say that you have to prove you have a CPL when OCing in a PFZ, others say not. There have been no test cases on this so it's still up to the courts to decide.

My personal advice is that if you OC in a PFZ and an officer demands ID, give it unless you have the desire and money to be a test case. Again that is just my two cents.
 

Raggs

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 18, 2012
Messages
1,181
Location
Wild Wild West Michigan
It was a little frustrating today trying to convince my CPL instructor that OC is not dangerous. He and a 30 yr ex cop insisted that I would be hauled off and charged. Especially if I didn't offer identification when requested. I'm not exactly sure what I believe is the right thing to do, but I have no general duty to identify myself right? Unless I'm being detained? MSP 86...


-jakeus

Jakeus314 I suggest you invite the 30 year cop and the CPL instructor come here and get educated.
 

Michigander

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
4,818
Location
Mulligan's Valley
There is no duty to disclose unless you are carrying concealed, or are carrying openly in a PFZ.

If you want to take the side that believes it best to show ID and CPL in a CEZ that is fine, and you're in good company doing so, but there is no legal requirement to do so.
 

MKEgal

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
4,383
Location
in front of my computer, WI
I'm sure some of the state residents will be along shortly with a discussion of state laws (which, too often, the LEOs don't know).
Jakeus314 said:
He and a 30 yr ex cop insisted that I would be hauled off and charged.
My question would have been: Charged for what, exactly? For what crime would they have arrested you? (Disorderly conduct? GATTTOTP? Contempt of cop?)
And how many OCers across the state have suffered a similar fate? (Followed up by: how many of those departments managed not to lose the subsequent civil rights suits?)

Especially if I didn't offer identification when requested.
If you're not carrying any, you can't be forced to provide it...
though they could insist on having your name, I don't see what good it would do.
They can't prove a negative - can't prove that you're not a felon, not prohibited, not a criminal - esp. just by knowing your name.
What that is is a fishing expedition, trying to find something they can charge you with.
Hope you have good law-abiding officers, the kind who won't invent "facts".
 

smellslikemichigan

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jun 16, 2008
Messages
2,307
Location
Troy, Michigan, USA
It was a little frustrating today trying to convince my CPL instructor that OC is not dangerous. He and a 30 yr ex cop insisted that I would be hauled off and charged. Especially if I didn't offer identification when requested. I'm not exactly sure what I believe is the right thing to do, but I have no general duty to identify myself right? Unless I'm being detained? MSP 86...


-jakeus

just drop off a copy of MSP legal update 86 to him. things may have changed since he was a cop. oh wait... probably not since MCL123.1102 was passed in 1990. #excopfail
 

Jakeus314

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2012
Messages
81
Location
Michigan
I'm sure some of the state residents will be along shortly with a discussion of state laws (which, too often, the LEOs don't know).

My question would have been: Charged for what, exactly? For what crime would they have arrested you? (Disorderly conduct? GATTTOTP? Contempt of cop?)
And how many OCers across the state have suffered a similar fate? (Followed up by: how many of those departments managed not to lose the subsequent civil rights suits?)


If you're not carrying any, you can't be forced to provide it...
though they could insist on having your name, I don't see what good it would do.
They can't prove a negative - can't prove that you're not a felon, not prohibited, not a criminal - esp. just by knowing your name.
What that is is a fishing expedition, trying to find something they can charge you with.
Hope you have good law-abiding officers, the kind who won't invent "facts".

The ex cop looked up and to the right and invented some charge like "failure to provide ID while possessing a deadly weapon". I kind of gasped when he said it because I was so surprised. I'm sure the entire class thought I was the uninformed nut job. I read the last two paragraphs to the class from 86 and it kind of shut him up. He said the word "general" in "no general duty" meant something like cops can still charge you with something for being difficult. Ok dickhead. I should have gotten mad, but I'm glad that I actually didn't. The ex cop left the room after mildly mocking my attire.

The instructor remained skeptical, but did take interest in msp86 when I showed it to him during breaks.

They also mentioned the kid near Birmingham with the 30-06 m1... Has his father really spent 10k in legal assistance?


-jakeus
 

BoiledFrogs

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
Messages
63
Location
Michigan
The ex cop looked up and to the right and invented some charge like "failure to provide ID while possessing a deadly weapon". I kind of gasped when he said it because I was so surprised. I'm sure the entire class thought I was the uninformed nut job. I read the last two paragraphs to the class from 86 and it kind of shut him up. He said the word "general" in "no general duty" meant something like cops can still charge you with something for being difficult. Ok dickhead. I should have gotten mad, but I'm glad that I actually didn't. The ex cop left the room after mildly mocking my attire.

The instructor remained skeptical, but did take interest in msp86 when I showed it to him during breaks.

They also mentioned the kid near Birmingham with the 30-06 m1... Has his father really spent 10k in legal assistance?


-jakeus

@Michigander, it is wiser to err on the side of caution, lest you become that test case.

They can't make up laws, although they have been trained to lie. Just curious though, what were you wearing that he made fun of.

If they mentioned the case in Birmingham, which the kid won, they then had contradicted themselves.
 

Jakeus314

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2012
Messages
81
Location
Michigan
@Michigander, it is wiser to err on the side of caution, lest you become that test case.

They can't make up laws, although they have been trained to lie. Just curious though, what were you wearing that he made fun of.

If they mentioned the case in Birmingham, which the kid won, they then had contradicted themselves.

I wear a brown leather brimmed hat. His mocking was slight and subtle, but it was clear that what I said annoyed him... (4A, no general duty). He suggested my hat would hat make me appear suspicious too.

They won, yes... But the instructor and ex cop said to the class that it isn't worth the legal fees... They quoted 10k.


-jakeus
 

Jakeus314

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2012
Messages
81
Location
Michigan
You should have laughed out loud.

I didn't want to offend others and/or sound crazy. I know I'm not crazy, but the rest of the class trusted the cop... They mostly had "the cops are on our side" mentality. I think they generally are too, but when they make up laws to cover up their ignorance it's very hard to tell because they are so well rehearsed.

It's a fight I probably should have fought. I'm torn between my respect for cops and my disdain for idiots. I apologize to those of you who see the faults of my choice to not call him out directly as the ignorant liar he was.


-jakeus
 
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Big Gay Al

Michigan Moderator
Joined
Aug 27, 2006
Messages
1,944
Location
Mason, Michigan, USA
I wear a brown leather brimmed hat. His mocking was slight and subtle, but it was clear that what I said annoyed him... (4A, no general duty). He suggested my hat would hat make me appear suspicious too.

They won, yes... But the instructor and ex cop said to the class that it isn't worth the legal fees... They quoted 10k.


-jakeus

I'd say that depends on whether or not the young man and his family win their civil suit. :)
 

griffin

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 16, 2011
Messages
871
Location
Okemos, MI
I'm torn between my respect for cops and my disdain for idiots
I am not encumbered by the former.
I apologize to those of you who see the faults of my choice to not call him out directly as the ignorant liar he was.
As gun owners it's something we all deal with or anticipate we may have to deal with one day. I think you were in a good position to point out how untrustworthy cops are without having any direct repercussions from it, that the cop did not know the law and he would be vindictive and try to find an arrestable offense, even if he had to make one up.

They pretty much admitted that, though, anyway. A good follow-up from you would have been to point that out. "Obey my authoritay!" or I will arrest you on bogus, made-up charges and it will cost you money.

That's not what America is supposed to be.
 
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Small_Arms_Collector

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2011
Messages
436
Location
Eastpointe Michigan
I wear a brown leather brimmed hat. His mocking was slight and subtle, but it was clear that what I said annoyed him... (4A, no general duty). He suggested my hat would hat make me appear suspicious too.

They won, yes... But the instructor and ex cop said to the class that it isn't worth the legal fees... They quoted 10k.


-jakeus

Actually, according to Sean when I talked to him his fee's (which he is paying himself, not anyone else) came out to about $5,000 not 10.

Further he is now suing Birmingham over the false arrest, and is likely to win, which would cover his legal fees plus about $25,000 for his trouble.

He's on the boards so if I got any of that wrong, I'm sure he will chime in.
 
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TheQ

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2010
Messages
3,379
Location
Lansing, Michigan
Actually, according to Sean when I talked to him his fee's (which he is paying himself, not anyone else) came out to about 5,000 not 10.

Further he is now suing Birmingham over the false arrest, and is likely to win, which would cover his legal fees plus about $25,000 for his trouble.

He's on the boards so if I got any of that wrong, I'm sure he will chime in.

I think his lawyer (A 2A veteran) was being very generous with his fees.
 

MikeTheGreek

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2011
Messages
590
Location
Northville, Michigan
It was a little frustrating today trying to convince my CPL instructor that OC is not dangerous. He and a 30 yr ex cop insisted that I would be hauled off and charged. Especially if I didn't offer identification when requested. I'm not exactly sure what I believe is the right thing to do, but I have no general duty to identify myself right? Unless I'm being detained? MSP 86...


-jakeus


You wouldn't happen to be talking about Action Impact would you? Their instructor is an Ex-Detroit Swat team and I believe 30 year ex cop. He's notorious for hating OC and even telling his class sometimes that it's illegal.

I want to take my class there just to see if he'll try to argue with me about it being legal/illegal.
 

MikeTheGreek

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2011
Messages
590
Location
Northville, Michigan
Yeah that's the place.


-jakeus

Haha...good ol action impact. I go there to the range all the time, it's the only range I've been to. Love the people there, the prices are decent, and the range is really nice. Their CPL instructor? I can't stand the guy, at all. I've actually heard of him kicking people out of his classes and giving them refunds for trying to argue that OC was legal and safe.
 
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