Interesting night in Raleigh...and why restaurant/bar carry should be legal.

NC-Heel said:

Where have I ever bashed OC? Please point it out to me. Once again there is no state law that allows OC. Point it out to me if it exists. I open carry all the time. Attend OCDO events. How about you keyboard commando?

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Maybe you should read your own posts, you pretty much give the image of OC in bars as dangerous with talk of knife fights, and bar owners not allowing it. You posted misconceptions with no cites to back it up, then you post misinformation about NC laws. Your posts are clearly anti OC which is what this site promotes.

And you calling me names is against the rules. And I don't care if you have tea with the president, stop bashing OC.

NC-Heel said:

Well we have both and once an establishment gets a ABC license the saw laws apply for both. Bars are suppose to be private membership but you rarely see that. The hospitality and restaurant associations are not going to allow the 2 to be split up. You have to see the entire picture. I see no problem with OC'ing to Bennigans or the local chinese restaurant that serves beer which I assume is what the rest of you are asking for. The problem would be that would open it up to Billy's Backstreet Bar (I worked at a place named that once), dance clubs, gentlemans clubs, and so on. I have had knives pulled on me when confronting an intoxicated person about cutting them off or not letting them drive off. Now imagine the guy has a loaded sidearm.

Also remember there are no laws that allow OC. There are no laws that make it illegal either. To implement OC restaurant carry would require that those laws be written, is that what you want? I know what you are going to say, all they need to do is remove the part of the ABC laws that restrict firearms. That will never happen. When in our countries history have politicians thought less laws are better? Never. They would be compelled to add laws. Keep it the same or add laws to the concealed carry portion to make it happen but the last thing I want is them writing laws concerning open carry. Period, end of story. No good would come of that.

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The bold is just part of your bashing OC, and all of it is untrue. NObody is asking they write a law for OC carry in restaurants, what is needed is complete lifting or removing the current law. Last time I looked that is less law. The only reason for a law would be to exclude OC and make it for CC only which is what GRNC is attempting. Bank carry for CC was added just by removing the words from a statute without affecting OC.

And do you really think you are going to garner support with insults?

NC-Heel said:

Please correct me if I am wrong and site your sources.

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YOU made the claims cite your sources!

NC-Heel said:

Because he is always right and doesn't feel the need to back his opinion up with verifiable fact. Without fact there is no counter. North Carolina is not a legally verifiable open carry state as some other states are, it is just there are no laws against it so it is legal to do something that has not been deemed illegal. There are no laws that discuss open carry only laws that define where it is illegal to be in possession of a firearm.

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You need to back up your accusations with cites. I ask the mods to step in here, it is a well known fact that OC is both supported by the NC constitution and Kerner V State.

Yeah, I wish the mods would step in and ban you but I doubt that happens. I own bars and restaurants so I cite myself with my information. I am also a member of the Greater Charlotte Hospitality & Tourism Alliance so I will cite that also. Still waiting for you to post the law that specifically makes open carry legal in N.C. since when I say it you respond it is untrue. Me asking for the law and you responding about the NC Constitution and cases is like me asking for the salt and you passing the butter. Know come back one more time with your non cited information that I have not asked for.

I can't cite something that I say does not exist. If it exists point me in that direction.

NC-Heel said:

Yeah, I wish the mods would step in and ban you but i doubt that happens. I own bars and restaurants so I cite myself with my information. I am also a member of the Greater Charlotte Hospitality & Tourism Alliance so I will cite that also. Still waiting for you to post the law that specifically makes open carry legal in N.C. since when I say it you respond it is untrue. Me asking for the law and you responding about the NC Constitution and cases is like me asking for the salt and you passing the butter.

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None of the above has anything to do with the law of NC and the NC constitution as well as NC Supreme court rulings. I don't need to cite common knowledge AND you were the one making claims. Now with the above you admit you have nothing of law to back them up. The cites are the US and NC constitution, and Kerner V State. They are there for you to look up, stop insulting and read them, before making wild claims.

GS already busted you on the supposed violence from firearms in restaurants and bars in Virginia. You completely ignored his post and continued the rants and general insults as well as personal.

BTW he is a mod, but I am sure you being informed and smart know that?

State V Kerner

NC Constitution

NC-Heel said:

Now come back one more time with your irrelevent information that I have not asked for.

I can't cite something that I say does not exist. No law in N.C. makes OC legal. If it exists point me in that direction.

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Once again my claims have been about citable laws and statutes, not State Constitutions.

NC-Heel said:

Once again my claims have been about citable laws and statutes, not State Constitutions.

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:lol: :lol: :lol:

WalkingWolf said:

GS already busted you on the supposed violence from firearms in restaurants and bars in Virginia. You completely ignored his post and continued the rants and general insults as well as personal.

BTW he is a mod, but I am sure you being informed and smart know that?

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Unless there is a forum rule about ignoring forum member's posts that I deem irrelevant to my discussion I don't see your point. Him being a moderator does not change my opinion of his opinions. There is zero gun violence in Virginia's bars. You know why? They don't allow bars. North Carolina has approximately 4 bars with ABC permits for every restaurant with ABC permits (cited in the same fashion you favor http://abc.nc.gov/). His opinion on violence in Virginia bars hold the same weight as my opinion on on gun violence in N.C. bars. I fail to see where he busted anything unless he is an accredited expert in the field of violence in restaurants or has practical experience in the field. I have 20+ years in the field of violence in the restaurant/bar business as an employee and owner.

Sent from the office of one of my establishments that serves alcohol while legally carrying a concealed pistol.

NC-Heel said:

Unless there is a forum rule about ignoring moderators posts that I deem irrelevant to my discussion I don't see your point. There is zero gun violence in Virginia's bars. You know why? They don't allow bars. North Carolina has approximately 4 bars with ABC permits for every restaurant with ABC permits (cited in the same fashion you favor http://abc.nc.gov/). His opinion on violence in Virginia bars hold the same weight as my opinion on on gun violence in N.C. bars. I fail to see where he busted anything unless he is an accredited expert in the field of violence in restaurants or has practical experience in the field. I have 20+ years in the field of violence in the restaurant/bar business as an employee and owner.

Sent from the office of one of my establishments that serves alcohol while legally carrying a concealed pistol.

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:lol: :lol: :lol:

Richmond Times-Dispatch said:

In one incident, the Times-Dispatch reports, a drunken customer at a deli in York County allegedly sexually harassed a female waitress and, at one point, placed his hand over his legally concealed gun so the waitress could see its outline. After he left the deli, police charged him with driving under the influence, brandishing a firearm and carrying a concealed weapon while drinking, still a crime in Virginia despite the new law.

In another incident, a concealed-permit holder at a Lynchburg restaurant reached into his pocket to pay for his beer tab and accidentally discharged the gun there, shooting himself in the thigh. He was convicted, the paper reports, of recklessly handling a firearm and lost his concealed-carry permit for a year. His gun was confiscated.

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I guess we can say only in Virginia on this. Grapeshot, how can they charge someone with carrying a concealed weapon while drinking if the new law makes it legal?

NC-Heel said:

I guess we can say only on Virginia on this. Grapeshot, how can they charge someone with carrying a concealed weapon while drinking if the new law makes it legal?

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Now that is outright funny~both instances a "concealed carrier". Thank you very much :lol::lol::lol:

How many law breakers or criminals open carry? You just made the case for outlawing CC in bars, that's it.

No, its more about consuming alcohol and carrying. Do you think people should be allowed to consume alcohol at a restaurant while OC'ing?

NC-Heel said:

No, its more about consuming alcohol and carrying. Do you think people should be allowed to consume alcohol at a restaurant while OC'ing?

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As long as they do not get drunk I see no problem with it. BUT a bartender, waitress, waiter can clearly see that OCer is armed and cut them off. Where the more sneaky CCer they cannot. So by the NC constitution, I would have no problem them restricting CCers from entering establishments serving alcohol. The constitution says that concealed carry can be regulated.

Not only can they cut them off, but they can refuse to serve them, with the CCer they don't know. .

So how do you regulate that? The law only says I can't serve you if you are noticeably intoxicated. In my experience that is way above the threshold of .08 BAC that is considered too intoxicated to drive. So you are saying somewhere between too legally intoxicated to drive and being noticeably intoxicated is a good range to be armed with a deadly weapon? As a business owner I will have to come up with employee guidelines on when and how to refuse continuing service to someone, help me write those?

NC-Heel said:

So how do you regulate that? The law only says I can't serve you if you are noticeably intoxicated. In my experience that is way above the threshold of .08 BAC that is considered too intoxicated to drive. So you are saying somewhere between too legally intoxicated to drive and being noticeably intoxicated is a good range to be armed with a deadly weapon? As a business owner I will have to come up with employee guidelines on when and how to refuse continuing service to someone, help me write those?

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A business owner and their agents can refuse to serve anybody. Actually in NC it is illegal for CCer to consume alcohol. Please post the law that says a bartender can't refuse service for any reason? As a business owner how do you know who is concealing or not? Do you search your patrons? Besides the fact that as a business owner you can post a sign.

Allegorical stories, whether personally claimed or not, about fights in bars/restaurants involving OC or CC do not add anything of substance to a discussion. We deal in facts, numbers, substantial evidence - not feelings or likes and dislikes. Point of fact, where OC is legal in such establishments the dire predictions have not materialized.

Continued dialog in the manner seen on this thread is not productive, considered trollish and unnecessarily provoking - stirring the pot without basis in fact. Cites are important and it is dependent on the poster making the claim to provide them.

Personal attacks will not be tolerated.

NC-Heel said:

I guess we can say only in Virginia on this. Grapeshot, how can they charge someone with carrying a concealed weapon while drinking if the new law makes it legal?

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The newest Virginia law on the subject does not make it legal to CC and indulge. One may only OC and have an adult beverage.
See J3 - http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-308

Insofar as what problems have surafced as a result - little to nothing.
http://redstatevirginia.com/2011/07/virginias-repeal-of-the-restaurant-gun-ban-has-passed-the-test/

BTW - it is not only Virginia.
43 states allow guns in restaurants that serve alcohol.
http://www.opencarry.org/?page_id=150

NC-Heel said:

Unless there is a forum rule about ignoring forum member's posts that I deem irrelevant to my discussion I don't see your point. Him being a moderator does not change my opinion of his opinions. There is zero gun violence in Virginia's bars. You know why? They don't allow bars. North Carolina has approximately 4 bars with ABC permits for every restaurant with ABC permits (cited in the same fashion you favor http://abc.nc.gov/). His opinion on violence in Virginia bars hold the same weight as my opinion on on gun violence in N.C. bars. I fail to see where he busted anything unless he is an accredited expert in the field of violence in restaurants or has practical experience in the field. I have 20+ years in the field of violence in the restaurant/bar business as an employee and owner.

Sent from the office of one of my establishments that serves alcohol while legally carrying a concealed pistol.

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The distinction between bars and restaurants is a straw man argument. The pertinent point is that is where alcohol by the drink is sold.

Never said that there was/is zero violence in Virginia restaurants - indicated that it was negligible.

My "opinion" is based on facts, not on mere unsubstantiated repetition by one person. You would imply that the good people of North Carolina are somehow less responsible and law abiding than those in Virginia when carrying a gun - sincerely doubt there is any appreciable difference.

If in your 20+ years in the restaurant/bar business you have experienced a high degree of violence in those establishments, then perhaps you need to reexamine your business practices. Virginia ABC Board investigates such problems and will take action to pull the license of those attracting such conduct - presume that NC does also.

When you do not respond to challenges to your statements you abrogate your responsibility to the forum and seriously damage your credibility. It is not within your purview to dismiss them as "irrelevant". Control of the "discussion" does not belong to you. If you cannot or will not interact on a level playing field, then what is your purpose here? To be disruptive?

That you oppose OC, there can be little question. You might want to take a more open minded approach and reevaluate your stance.

Sent from on-site location where I am legally OCing as I do virtually every waking hour. :lol:

grapeshot, you are, as always, a gentleman & scholar...tks for your input..