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Thread: A suggested cleanup of legislation for the 2013-2014 session

  1. #1
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    A suggested cleanup of legislation for the 2013-2014 session

    Let me start out with the statement that I support the complete repeal of 941.23 as well as all other infringement on our rights, however, on the pragmatic side, I think we have a good chance of making some targeted fixes to the existing law.

    Here is my suggested fixes. I will add onto it as I come up with ideas. Please feel free to discuss.

    Add: 941.23(2)

    941.23(2)(f) An individual who carries a concealed and dangerous weapon, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (j), in compliance with 167.31.
    I would call this the MKEGal amendment. This would once and for all invalidate State v. Walls.

    Add: 175.60(4)(b)

    175.60(4)(b)3 The department may not require any specific curriculum for any instructors other than the ones it certifies to meet the training requirements under par. (a)1.
    This would clarify that the DOJ cannot regulate 'a national or state organizations' classes. They can setup any rules they want for the classes taught by their instructors, however, they would not be able to tell Wisconsin Carry or the NRA that they need a special Wisconsin class.
    Last edited by paul@paul-fisher.com; 11-13-2012 at 08:10 AM. Reason: Added links.

  2. #2
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    How about this?
    941.23(2)(f) An individual who carries a concealed and dangerous weapon, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (j), in compliance with 167.31.
    Or possibly:
    941.23(2)(f) An individual who carries a concealed and dangerous weapon, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (j), in or on any vehicle or means of conveyance in compliance with 167.31.
    I'm trying to get bicycles, motorized wheelchairs, farm equipment, etc. included with cars, motorcycles, boats, private planes,
    AND
    to remove the idea that if it's in a car it's concealed.
    Anyone with a better way to write that, have a go at it.
    Last edited by MKEgal; 11-12-2012 at 12:20 PM.

  3. #3
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    ...to remove the idea that if it's in a car it's concealed...
    I guess my argument is that 941.23 is the concealed carry statute.

  4. #4
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    Let nonresidents apply for concealed carry licenses

    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    I guess my argument is that 941.23 is the concealed carry statute.
    The state now has the mechanism in place to handle the demand. They would gain millions of dollars for almost no expenditure, as these people can already carry in Wisconsin with another states permit.

    Why pass on the virtually "free" money when it would be so simple to become the "go to" state for out of state permits. Wisconsin has many advantages over Florida and Utah if it would choose to go this route.

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    Why are laws so complicated and intricate a maze of web. It can't be constitutional carry can it?? But I guess we have to comply....sigh... But as my Pierce county DA told me " it is more complicated than that..." I suppose he means once we have fired the gun. You all, I am sure you know, it has been a joy to carry my 357 all over Ellsworth and Prescott. can';t wait for wifey to budget my Utah permit so I can carry in MN. And yes Grumps I need to mane a visit. Right now I have a respiratory viral and on prednisone to help me breath. I, will make it to your hut and will pay you with an authentic Tandoori chicken and Naan bread and other delicious spicy Indian food I can cook.

    I need to look up all firearm statutes.
    Last edited by Law abider; 11-12-2012 at 07:19 PM.

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    Why not come into compliance with the Wis consitution.

    Any weapon carried for sporting, recreation, self defense or other lawfull purpose can be carried with out restriction.

    .
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  7. #7
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    Why not come into compliance with the Wis consitution.

    Any weapon carried for sporting, recreation, self defense or other lawfull purpose can be carried with out restriction.

    .
    So.... make specific suggestions.

  8. #8
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    OK... since 941.23 (2) (e) already nullifies the ccw law for a person's own property, add to that.

    175.60 (2g) says
    Unless the licensee or out-of-state licensee is carrying a concealed weapon in a manner described under s. 941.23 (2) (e), a licensee shall have with him or her his or her license document and photographic identification card
    The current bit:
    http://docs.legis.wi.gov/statutes/st...941/III/23/2/e
    An individual who carries a concealed and dangerous weapon, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (j), in his or her own dwelling or place of business or on land that he or she owns, leases, or legally occupies.
    Proposed addition:
    An individual who carries a concealed and dangerous weapon, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (j), in his or her own dwelling or place of business or on land that he or she owns, leases, or legally occupies, or in or on a vehicle which is under the individual's control or which the operator has given permission for such possession.
    Combined with Paul's proposed 941.23(2)(f), I don't see how any cop or DA could possibly misinterpret it again.
    Last edited by MKEgal; 11-12-2012 at 09:16 PM. Reason: ,

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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    More stuff

    Repeal 175.60(1)(f)2 and 165.25(12m)

    We will now recognize ALL other state CCL's.

    Change 175.60(1)(g) to
    (g) "Out-of-state licensee" means an individual who has been issued an out-of-state license.
    Will allow any age license holder to carry. (removed 21 years old requirement).
    Last edited by paul@paul-fisher.com; 11-13-2012 at 08:13 AM. Reason: Added links.

  10. #10
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Gfsz

    Replace 948.605(2)(b)1m so that it reads:
    A person who possesses the firearm in accordance with 18 USC 922 (q) (2) (B) (i), (ii) (iv), (v), (vi), or (vii).
    Repeal 948.605(2)(b)1r

    The effect of this is that CCL holders would be able to carry INSIDE A SCHOOL, like they can in UT and other states.

    Yes, I know, the Federal GFSZ is unconstitutional, however, until it is ruled as such, we need to live with it and this is as far as we can go within the Federal law.
    Last edited by paul@paul-fisher.com; 11-13-2012 at 08:14 AM. Reason: Added links.

  11. #11
    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Shotgun's Avatar
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    I'd like to see 66.0409 amended to included all weapons, not only firearms. This would negate the silly knife restrictions in some municipalities, e.g., Milwaukee and martial arts weapons restrictions in others, e.g., Madison.
    A. Gold

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    Beacuse this is a wish list.

    Repeal all weapons laws or change the law to read.

    It shall be illegal ,only when used in commison of a crime.

    Thus if you robbed, murdered ect then one could be charged with a weapons violation.
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  13. #13
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    941.235 (carrying firearm in public building) stinks in its entirety. I don't think we have a chance of repealing it but I'd like it gone.

    Anyone have any suggestions to re-working 943.13 (trespass to land) so that we can make it so that governments CANNOT post?

    How's this?

    Repeal 943.13(1m)(c)4 and 941.13(1m)(c)5

  14. #14
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Since not everyone knows the citations for each of these, I went back and added hyperlinks to the existing statutes to all my suggestions so that people can understand what I mean.

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    1. Strengthen 66.0409
    2. Stand Your Ground
    3. No municipality can post.
    4. Court Houses must provide lock boxes
    5. Police stations are no longer prohibited carry (except the jail area of course).
    6. a. Any place that posts "No Weapons" must have armed security (think of all the jobs that will create!) and metal detectors. or b. No business can prevent its employees or customers from carrying.
    7. Eliminate GFSZ
    8. Carry on 1-12 school grounds is no longer illegal.
    9. Eliminate 48 hour waiting period for handguns.
    10. Bring back capital punishment (firing squad only as it is the cheapest method).
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Shotgun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    2. Stand Your Ground
    Wisconsin is, and always has been, a "stand your ground" state. What complicates things is a 1999 Court of Appeals case that says it's OK for a jury to weigh one's opportunity to retreat when determining whether a reasonable amount of force was used. The new castle doctrine law eliminated that for residence, vehicle and place of business, but presumably that complication still stands for anywhere else you may be at the time of an attack.
    A. Gold

    Failure to comply may result in discipline up to and including termination.
    The free man is a warrior. - Nietzsche "Twilight of the Idols"

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    If You Hold a Valid CWL.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shotgun View Post
    I'd like to see 66.0409 amended to included all weapons, not only firearms. This would negate the silly knife restrictions in some municipalities, e.g., Milwaukee and martial arts weapons restrictions in others, e.g., Madison.
    these restrictions don't apply to you. The issuance of a license is a positive act by the state that supersedes any subordinate jurisdiction law (except as provided by the statute itself). This is different from unlicensed open carry (UOC). Since UOC was/is generally legal without a specific state law but local jurisdictions attempted to use home rule as a vehicle to interfere with the carrying of firearms, 66.0409 was necessary to (1) clarify that firearms regulation was a statewide concern and (2) limit the ability of municipalities (I don't think home rule applies to counties and towns) to halt/restrict the selling, ownership, carrying, etc. of firearms. This is still the case for the unlicensed individual. So -

    1. For the licensed individual, local restrictions on weapons covered by the license are irrelevant except to the extent provided by state statute.
    2. For the unlicensed individual, local restrictions on firearms only are generally prohibited under Wis. Stat. 66.0409. However local restrictions on non-firearm weapons are valid unless and until the state expands pre-emption as you suggest. Non-CWL weapons can still be prohibited even for licensees, so leave the throwing stars and nunchakus at home. Another way to say this is that preemption for CWL weapons is implicit in the granting of a license.

    Please note that this is my analysis, not legal advice. All standard disclaimers apply.
    Last edited by apjonas; 11-13-2012 at 11:24 AM. Reason: clarification

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    How about doing away with the 48 hour waiting period for Wisconsin residents purchasing a handgun for those who are already vetted by obtaining their CWL through the state?

    How about not needing a NICS background check for people purchasing long guns who currently have a valid WI CWL too?

    Allegedly, my extended perpetual delay status for purchasing a handgun has been fixed at the state level, I plan to find out soon with another handgun purchase, Lets hope so.

  19. #19
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nutczak View Post
    How about doing away with the 48 hour waiting period for Wisconsin residents purchasing a handgun for those who are already vetted by obtaining their CWL through the state?

    How about not needing a NICS background check for people purchasing long guns who currently have a valid WI CWL too?

    Allegedly, my extended perpetual delay status for purchasing a handgun has been fixed at the state level, I plan to find out soon with another handgun purchase, Lets hope so.
    How about some citations? I have no clue where those are.

  20. #20
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    How about some citations? I have no clue where those are.
    175.35
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

  21. #21
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Amend Article 1, Section 26 so that hunting becomes an actual right instead of a sudo right.
    Remove the 1973 cutoff for hunting without having to go to hunter's safety: 29.xxx (sorry, can't find the statute at the moment).
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

  22. #22
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    [Public] Colleges cannot bar people from carrying.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

  23. #23
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    [Public] Colleges cannot bar people from carrying.
    See post 13 941.13(1m)(c)5

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    Mentor restrictions

    Eliminate the "one-gun" rule for mentor and "mentee". Currently, a CCL holder cannot carry and mentor at the same time (unless the carry gun IS the hunting gun, which is highly unlikely). This is a DNR rule

    29.592(3)

    (3) A person who is authorized to hunt with a mentor under this section and a mentor under this section with whom that person hunts may jointly have only one firearm, only one bow, or if hunting with a crossbow is authorized under s. 29.171 (4) or 29.193 (2), only one crossbow in their possession or control while hunting.
    Last edited by phred; 11-14-2012 at 08:29 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    Since not everyone knows the citations for each of these, I went back and added hyperlinks to the existing statutes to all my suggestions so that people can understand what I mean.
    Thanks for that, Paul.

    Everyone should know that one of the principles of THIS website, is to provide citations to authority (published statutes, ordinances, case law and codes) when discussing laws and regulations. Doing that citation in the form of a link, just makes it much easier to understand the exact legal terms used, and follow embedded citations in those statutes, ordinances, case law and codes.

    Open Carry Forum rules

    To make this discussion as productive and factual as we need it to be, let's follow the forum rules.
    Wis. CCL #5x Springfield XDM 3.8 Compact .40 S&W, Utah CFP

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