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Thread: ALL Enemies, Foreign and Domestic...

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    Regular Member Gil223's Avatar
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    ALL Enemies, Foreign and Domestic...

    There's usually an ongoing thread or two about our Constitution. In some cases the thread praises the original intent, others condemn those who are obviously unfamiliar with it (this one often applies particularly to those serving in our armed forces), but I have yet to see a thread regarding the lack of practical application of the phrase "support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic".

    I believe that our current administration is replete with "domestic enemies" of our Constitution, and I immediately suppose that I could be wrong... in some parallel universe where everything is upside down. The president's cabinet is a virtual cornucopia of anti-freedom, Communist Manifesto/Little Red Book of Mao/Cloward- Piven following, Marxist-Socialists whose political philosophies are diametrically opposed to those of our founding fathers. (Where's another Joe McCarthy when the country really needs him? Seriously though, I don't know that we ever need another Joe McCarthy-type, but we do need people to be acutely aware of what is going on in our government.) The government is being stacked - slowly-but-surely - with persons who stand firmly against the principles which made this country great. The method by which the "fundamental transformation of America" will take place is obvious - political appointments of people with well-established histories of unAmerican beliefs within the government, the "promise them anything" leadership(?) style of Santa Claus, ineffective fiscal policies designed to reduce the USA to the status of a 3rd world nation... all planned to facilitate the humbling of what was once seen as the greatest nation in the world. How does one eat an elephant? One bite at a time. A nibble here, a nibble there... the "elephant" is so large that nobody will notice. Those whose "occupation" is to suckle at the federal teat, have been nibbling for so long that they honestly believe they are entitled to do so. Add to that, the now-unemployed workers who were recently added to the "assistance rolls" in order to expedite this failing economy, and you soon have the system collapsing under the weight of it's self-imposed fiscal burdens.
    My questions are simple - Where are those who claim to be the defenders of our Constitution? Why have they failed to "support and defend" our Constitution against these obvious domestic enemies? Pax...
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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gil223 View Post
    <snip> My questions are simple - Where are those who claim to be the defenders of our Constitution? Why have they failed to "support and defend" our Constitution against these obvious domestic enemies? Pax...
    I'm busy supporting some unknown number of those feeding at the federal trough.....sorry. What are you doing tomorrow.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member Gil223's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    I'm busy supporting some unknown number of those feeding at the federal trough.....sorry. What are you doing tomorrow.
    I'll be busy trying to figure out just how we can replace the Millionaire Do-Nothing politicians in Washington D.C., with people who are actually used to working for what they have. Wouldn't it be a unique experience to have work-a-day folks determining the course our Ship of State takes, as opposed to the self-absorbed elitists and Communists we now have navigating the country onto the rocks?? (re: France, 14 July 1789) Pax...
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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gil223 View Post
    I'll be busy trying to figure out just how we can replace the Millionaire Do-Nothing politicians in Washington D.C., with people who are actually used to working for what they have. Wouldn't it be a unique experience to have work-a-day folks determining the course our Ship of State takes, as opposed to the self-absorbed elitists and Communists we now have navigating the country onto the rocks?? (re: France, 14 July 1789) Pax...
    I tried figuring out how to replace a specific congress critter, in the senate, this past election cycle but Todd "The Nitwit" Akin had to open his pie-hole on a subject he is completely ignernt on. When "it's the economy stupid" a savvy politician (oxymoron, I know) should stick to the economy Todd is not very savvy.

    If there is a France circca 1789, I'll watch it on TV, thank you very much.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member ()pen(arry's Avatar
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    This conversation is evidence that the participants are doing something about the problem. See, voting is the logically-last, and definitely least-important, aspect of democracy (or, more accurately, self-determination). Voting is about making a choice between the fruits of the worldviews and considerations of the people over the previous period. It's the jury action after deliberation, after the trial. Sure, it definitely has meaning and consequence, but far more important is the conversation that did or didn't occur leading up to it. Sadly, our politicians from the predominant political parties have managed to convince us that voting is the big deal, and that everything leading up to it is just preamble for the Really Important Event. What loathsome rubbish.

    A party-affiliated person who thinks that the vote is the most important event will spend the time before the vote arguing about the vote. There's no room for substantive, objective consideration of fundamental presuppositions and perspectives. The arguments are about what will happen if the vote goes a certain way, which places all of the focus on that one day. Even a person with no particular political affiliation who focuses on the vote will be trapped into considering specific candidates and the consequences of one of them being elected. On the other hand, someone who is interested in discussing fundamental worldview (not "issues", which are simply manifestations, and often symptoms, of worldview, and therefore far down the hierarchy of significance) will engage in the actually-meaningful mechanism of democracy: dialogue. What's great about this nation isn't that we get to vote, it's that we are [theoretically] unfettered in our ability to think and say what we want about the world, allowing us freely to participate in dialogue. When we talk to family, friends, and strangers about "politics", we shouldn't be wasting our time talking about the trappings of tax cuts and immigration law. We should be talking about what we think about the value of liberty, the meaning of generosity, the feasibility of safety, and other basic concepts that ultimately get ignored entirely when people argue about abortion or military spending.

    It is effectively impossible to alter someone's perspective by arguing about the symptoms of and potential band-aids for the problems we think we face today. If you want to have meaningful influence on the course of the nation, talk to people about what they fundamentally think and believe, and stop getting worked up about policy distractions. Stop putting makeup on the lesions and treat the cancer.

    So we are defending the Constitution. More importantly, we're defending self-determination by engaging in discussion. We could do better, but at least we're doing. We all know people who "don't like to talk about politics". Sometimes that's because they're complacent simpletons, but usually it's because they're turned off by bickering about inconsequential details. Talk to people about their fundamental worldview. More importantly, make sure you understand yours, and that it's intentional and thoroughly-considered.

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    Regular Member carolina guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ()pen(arry View Post
    This conversation is evidence that the participants are doing something about the problem. See, voting is the logically-last, and definitely least-important, aspect of democracy (or, more accurately, self-determination). Voting is about making a choice between the fruits of the worldviews and considerations of the people over the previous period. It's the jury action after deliberation, after the trial. Sure, it definitely has meaning and consequence, but far more important is the conversation that did or didn't occur leading up to it. Sadly, our politicians from the predominant political parties have managed to convince us that voting is the big deal, and that everything leading up to it is just preamble for the Really Important Event. What loathsome rubbish.

    A party-affiliated person who thinks that the vote is the most important event will spend the time before the vote arguing about the vote. There's no room for substantive, objective consideration of fundamental presuppositions and perspectives. The arguments are about what will happen if the vote goes a certain way, which places all of the focus on that one day. Even a person with no particular political affiliation who focuses on the vote will be trapped into considering specific candidates and the consequences of one of them being elected. On the other hand, someone who is interested in discussing fundamental worldview (not "issues", which are simply manifestations, and often symptoms, of worldview, and therefore far down the hierarchy of significance) will engage in the actually-meaningful mechanism of democracy: dialogue. What's great about this nation isn't that we get to vote, it's that we are [theoretically] unfettered in our ability to think and say what we want about the world, allowing us freely to participate in dialogue. When we talk to family, friends, and strangers about "politics", we shouldn't be wasting our time talking about the trappings of tax cuts and immigration law. We should be talking about what we think about the value of liberty, the meaning of generosity, the feasibility of safety, and other basic concepts that ultimately get ignored entirely when people argue about abortion or military spending.

    It is effectively impossible to alter someone's perspective by arguing about the symptoms of and potential band-aids for the problems we think we face today. If you want to have meaningful influence on the course of the nation, talk to people about what they fundamentally think and believe, and stop getting worked up about policy distractions. Stop putting makeup on the lesions and treat the cancer.

    So we are defending the Constitution. More importantly, we're defending self-determination by engaging in discussion. We could do better, but at least we're doing. We all know people who "don't like to talk about politics". Sometimes that's because they're complacent simpletons, but usually it's because they're turned off by bickering about inconsequential details. Talk to people about their fundamental worldview. More importantly, make sure you understand yours, and that it's intentional and thoroughly-considered.
    I think you could even say that defending the PRINCIPLES that the Constitution embodied when it was written is even more important...after all, the Constitution is just a piece of paper, and meaningless without people that understand what it is supposed to mean.
    If something is wrong for ONE person to do to another, it is still wrong if a BILLION people do it.

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    Regular Member Gil223's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carolina guy View Post
    I think you could even say that defending the PRINCIPLES that the Constitution embodied when it was written is even more important...after all, the Constitution is just a piece of paper, and meaningless without people that understand what it is supposed to mean.
    "JUST a piece of paper"?!? Our American Constitution is the most important document in the world! It is the only thing that stands between our Republic and the potential for the government becoming a tyrannical dictatorship. Those currently in power (with the cowardly and blind [but notheless voluntary] support of the majority of Congress) are working diligently toward eliminating our Constitution via daily marginalization and usurpation of that document's intent. To call it "just a piece of paper" is also marginalizing. If we don't demand strict adherence to the Constitution by our elected "representatives", we will surely lose all our freedoms! Pax...
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    Hahaha calm down and read his entire post. He said it's a meaningless piece of paper if people don't understand what it says and means. Kinda like everything else in this world. I'm sure that the Mayans had lots of things that were sacred to them. Those things are meaningless to you and I because we don't understand them. Fourth of July is meaningless to bison because they don't understand it. Get it now?

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    Regular Member Gil223's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mustangkiller View Post
    Hahaha calm down and read his entire post. He said it's a meaningless piece of paper if people don't understand what it says and means. Kinda like everything else in this world. I'm sure that the Mayans had lots of things that were sacred to them. Those things are meaningless to you and I because we don't understand them. Fourth of July is meaningless to bison because they don't understand it. Get it now?
    I "got it" before. The problem is that most people (with the exception of most people in forums such as this), especially those under 40 years of age, seem to see our Constitution as "just a piece of paper". The principles of the Bill of Rights (much less the entire Constitution) aren't taught in our public schools, and they should be... at least in high school. Pax...
    Last edited by Gil223; 11-15-2012 at 02:26 PM. Reason: added "a" - another damn typo!
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    Lets not get too carried away with the domestic enemies stuff. Domestic enemies refers to insurgents and armed take-overs ala the accusations against Aaron Burr. Nobody really expects the military, which is carefully subordinate to the civil power, to march on Congress and throw them out at bayonet-point.
    Last edited by Citizen; 11-15-2012 at 01:46 AM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Lets not get too carried away with the domestic enemies stuff. Domestic enemies refers to insurgents and armed take-overs ala the accusations against Aaron Burr. Nobody really expects the military, which is carefully subordinate to the civil power, to march on Congress and throw them out at bayonet-point.
    Speak for yourself.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member carolina guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gil223 View Post
    I "got it" before. The problem is that most people (with the exception of most people in forums such as this), especially those under 40 years of age, seem to see our Constitution as "just piece of paper". The principles of the Bill of Rights (much less the entire Constitution) aren't taught in our public schools, and they should be... at least in high school. Pax...
    Unfortunately, I think you underestimate the depth of the problem...the "younger ones" in this country can hardly even explain, much less know the majority of the Constitution, why it was written, and what it is supposed to mean. Without a full understanding, it is virtually impossible to defend the Constitution.

    On the other hand, those same uneducated people can likely tell you the full rules for their favorite sport, all about their favorite team, and likely who is on and who "won" in the latest reality show.

    History is just a boring subject with little or no meaning to them. This is why we home school.
    Last edited by carolina guy; 11-15-2012 at 11:05 AM.
    If something is wrong for ONE person to do to another, it is still wrong if a BILLION people do it.

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    Regular Member Gil223's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carolina guy View Post
    Unfortunately, I think you underestimate the depth of the problem...the "younger ones" in this country can hardly even explain, much less know the majority of the Constitution, why it was written, and what it is supposed to mean. Without a full understanding, it is virtually impossible to defend the Constitution.

    On the other hand, those same uneducated people can likely tell you the full rules for their favorite sport, all about their favorite team, and likely who is on and who "won" in the latest reality show.

    History is just a boring subject with little or no meaning to them. This is why we home school.
    I make an attempt to never underestimate anything or anybody, as it helps me to avoid unpleasant surprises. We can't really expect the public school system to provide anything more than a moderate level of familiarity regarding the Declaration of Independence and the BoR, and simply exposure to Amendments XI through XXVII. Time is limited, funds are limited, and the public system must insure that our children understand that it's perfectly normal that "Heather Has Two Mommies" (and so does Tommy-Tammy, who has no male role model in the home - http://newenglandcatholic.blogspot.c...thats-why.html ), and that "Revisionist History" is the way things really were. Our system of public education/indoctrination, although technically not a "domestic enemy" of the Constitution, does nothing to insure that young Americans are well-informed about that important document. In order to support certain special social agendas, the public education system has become an "enemy of the truth"... and "truth" has recently (late 20th century) become subject to modification as the social academics and special interest groups see fit.

    "Home Schooling" has become the focus of repeated and frequent assaults by left-wing liberals - which strikes me as odd, inasmuch as they claim to be the last bastion of "freedom", and further claim that the conservatives want to enslave the people. Their complaints lack merit in the academic sense:
    A new study published in The Journal of College Admission suggests that home-schooled students enjoy higher ACT scores, grade point averages and graduation rates compared with other college students.The research, which was conducted by Michael Cogan, the director of institutional research and analysis at the University of St. Thomas. Here are some of Cogan's findings:

    1. Home-schooled students earned a higher ACT score (26.5) versus 25.0 for other incoming freshmen.
    2. Home-school students earned more college credits (14.7) prior to their freshmen year than other students (6.0).
    3. Home-schooled freshmen were less likely to live on campus (72.4%) than the rest of the freshmen class (92.7%).
    4. Home-schooled students were more likely to identify themselves as Roman Catholic (68.4%).
    5. Home-school freshmen earned a higher grade point average (3.37) their first semester in college compared with the other freshmen (3.08).
    6. Home-school students finished their freshman year with a better GPA (3.41) than the rest of their class (3.12).
    7. The GPA advantage was still present when the home-schooled were college seniors. Their average GPA was 3.46 versus 3.16 for other seniors.
    8. Home-schooled students graduated from college at a higher rate (66.7%) than their peers (57.5%).

    (I question the conclusion of #4, above, inasmuch as religious identification is not a result of home-schooling. Those students would still be Roman Catholic in the public schools.) Of course, the big knock on home-schooled students is that they never develop social skills since their classrooms are often their kitchen tables and their mothers are often their teachers. Cogan, however, noted that another home-school study that looked at more than 7,300 adults, who had been homeschooled, determined that the home-schooled graduates were more likely to have voted and participated in community service than other adults.
    Who are the "domestic enemies"? They are those who would marginalize the Constitution in the hope that by nudging it slowly into obscurity, it will eventually become forgotten by the masses. They are those who use - and permit the use of - "Executive Order" and "regulations" to bypass the Congress and usurp the "Three Branches" design of the Constitution. They are those who fail to obey our laws, disrespect our uniquely American culture, and demand special consideration from our legal system. Pax...
    Last edited by Gil223; 11-16-2012 at 02:15 AM. Reason: typo
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