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Thread: Checkpoints

  1. #1
    Regular Member The Trickster's Avatar
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    Checkpoints

    In all the years that I have lived in Arizona, I have never been through a DUI checkpoint, although I have been through many Border Patrol checkpoints. Despite the fact that I feel they are a suspicionless intrusion into our lives which lack any probable cause to be constitutional, they are a reality. While this is a borderline topic to be posted in the Arizona section on OC.org, I have done so because I live in Arizona and would like to specifically address this as it pertains to AZ state law, plus I am almost always armed and would be as I encounter these situations. So, a couple of questions if I may...

    *Note: I do not drink and drive nor am I in the United States illegally, so neither can ever be legitimately used as RAS by LE to warrant any of the following:

    1. Am I required to produce identification (driver license, proof of insurance, vehicle registration) if I am told to do so upon being stopped at a checkpoint? What about passengers?

    2. Can a K-9 detect the presence of a firearm (pistol) being carried by me which could then give LE the excuse of RAS to further detain and search me and my vehicle?

    3. Does anyone have any experience invoking their right to remain silent at these checkpoints and if so, did it lead to any further detention/investigation by LE?

    Thanks in advance.

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    Just my usual comment about terminology.

    We play into the government's hands when we use the government's terminology and call these things checkpoints.

    They're not checkpoints. They're roadblocks. Try running one sometime and see what happens.

    The word checkpoint is a government term coined to make these things seem innocuous and non-invasive.

    These things were always roadblocks and always will be roadblocks.

    If we call them what they are, we won't be playing into the government's hands.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Trickster View Post
    In all the years that I have lived in Arizona, I have never been through a DUI checkpoint, although I have been through many Border Patrol checkpoints. Despite the fact that I feel they are a suspicionless intrusion into our lives which lack any probable cause to be constitutional, they are a reality. While this is a borderline topic to be posted in the Arizona section on OC.org, I have done so because I live in Arizona and would like to specifically address this as it pertains to AZ state law, plus I am almost always armed and would be as I encounter these situations. So, a couple of questions if I may...

    *Note: I do not drink and drive nor am I in the United States illegally, so neither can ever be legitimately used as RAS by LE to warrant any of the following:

    1. Am I required to produce identification (driver license, proof of insurance, vehicle registration) if I am told to do so upon being stopped at a checkpoint? What about passengers?

    2. Can a K-9 detect the presence of a firearm (pistol) being carried by me which could then give LE the excuse of RAS to further detain and search me and my vehicle?

    3. Does anyone have any experience invoking their right to remain silent at these checkpoints and if so, did it lead to any further detention/investigation by LE?

    Thanks in advance.
    Wow! You asked a mouthful. I'm sure you didn't realize it, though. You just opened a box that will take quite a bit of cites to answer. If the answers are few, this will be the reason.

    You see, roadblocks come in different forms for different reasons, as you pointed out. And, you've implicated dogs which have their own case law. And, you get over into the whole officer safety thing with the gun which has its own case law.

    And, you implicated identity, which has its own case law, as distinguished from licensing.

    You might be here a while.


    PS: You might check a blog by a guy who monitors federal roadblocks. If I recall, he has some controlling federal law mentioned on his blog; CheckpointUSA is the name I think. Also, you might check the FAQs section at FlexYourRights.org. I seem to recall that they had some information on roadblocks.
    Last edited by Citizen; 11-13-2012 at 05:43 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  4. #4
    Regular Member Phoenix David's Avatar
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    My understanding

    #1 if your driving you could be required to produce a drivers license, registration, insurance. Passangers are not driving and Arizona does not require that you carry ID

    #2 K-9 could if trained detect weapons I suppose, in Arizona having a firearms in and of itself is not RAS, unless in a prohibited place.

    #3 Dunno.
    Freedom is a bit like sex, when your getting it you take it for granted, when you're not you want it bad, other people get mad at you for having it and others want to take it away from you so only they have it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Trickster View Post
    3. Does anyone have any experience invoking their right to remain silent at these checkpoints and if so, did it lead to any further detention/investigation by LE?

    Thanks in advance.
    Cars have locks, use them. Lock up before you stop ... if you leave your car, lock it as you get out.

    I never have been through a DUI chkpt ... but I don't like them, the courts are wrong on their constitutionality, and I would not be very pleasant to the cops if I said anything at all.

    I don't see why you would need to have any verbal communication at all....you hand them your paperwork and ignore their queries. Or just answer once "I'll answer any question you have in court!".

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    Regular Member The Trickster's Avatar
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    Thank you for the responses.

    Does anyone know for certain that a person is required to show identification at one of these che..., ahem, roadblocks? Since there is no probable cause, RAS, etc. to justify the detention in the first place, how could a driver be obligated to show their license? A cop couldn't just stop you while you're driving a vehicle to perform a driver license check, so how can they do it here?

    Again, your insight and thoughts are greatly appreciated.

  7. #7
    Regular Member The Trickster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ca Patriot View Post
    9 times out of 10 its going to result in prolonged detention at best and assault and arrest at worst.

    If you plan to assert your rights make sure to do your research on the laws, practice your routine, have a 2 or more video cameras and set aside some bail money for your wife to hold.
    Excellent points and I concur with you 100%.

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    Checkpoints

    Here we go again. Several weeks go by, then this border checkpoint bullschitt crops up.


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    Regular Member The Trickster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GWbiker View Post
    Here we go again. Several weeks go by, then this border checkpoint bullschitt crops up.


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    Feel free to ignore the thread if you'd like.

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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GWbiker View Post
    Here we go again. Several weeks go by, then this border checkpoint bullschitt crops up.


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    Your Big Black Hat too tight? bullschitt? Maybe you can expand on this and state why you "feel" the subject is bullschitt? To be blocked by police while going about one's way LEGALLY seems unconstitutional to me. Just like being stopped for exercising your 2A rights.

    I know you will not respond with anything other than venom per your norm, but hope springs eternal Sir.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GWbiker View Post
    Here we go again. Several weeks go by, then this border checkpoint bullschitt crops up.


    Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk

    I don't see anybody griping about a border checkpoint roadblock. They're griping about roadblocks well removed from the border on the specious legal theory that something like up to one hundred miles in from the border counts as fair game for suspicionless searches by the Border Patrol. ( Yeah, sure. Sell me a bridge and some beachfront property in Utah.)
    Last edited by Citizen; 11-14-2012 at 08:57 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  12. #12
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    Checkpoints

    This thread is an ongoing whine for past five years.

    Lot's of bitching from outsiders but no one willing to fix border security issue in Arizona.


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    Quote Originally Posted by The Trickster View Post
    Thank you for the responses.

    Does anyone know for certain that a person is required to show identification at one of these che..., ahem, roadblocks? Since there is no probable cause, RAS, etc. to justify the detention in the first place, how could a driver be obligated to show their license? A cop couldn't just stop you while you're driving a vehicle to perform a driver license check, so how can they do it here?

    Again, your insight and thoughts are greatly appreciated.
    Since you're not getting an solid answers here yet, you could also check websites for your local/state ACLU, AAA, and so forth--anybody who might have an interest in driving and rights.

    Heh, heh, heh. Then you can come back and stand tall by revealing what you learned. Instant forum brownie points, guaranteed. No cigars or cookies, though. We're not that generous.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  14. #14
    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GWbiker View Post
    This thread is an ongoing whine for past five years.

    Lot's of bitching from outsiders but no one willing to fix border security issue in Arizona.


    Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk
    Define outsider? I am 30 min from you and I would be happy to work with any group that would care to take on this issue. Maybe some of us from AzCDL can form a offshoot to address this issue? I know you would join, right?
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    Quote Originally Posted by GWbiker View Post
    This thread is an ongoing whine for past five years.

    Lot's of bitching from outsiders but no one willing to fix border security issue in Arizona.


    Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk
    You should re-read the thread. You're the one yapping about border roadblocks, with only one exception--a reference by me in my first post to a source of federal law--everybody is talking about police roadblocks. DUI and drivers license checks are expressly referenced. You might care to re-read the OP, too.



    Sent from my plain ol' desk top computer which apparently is more readable than an iPod using Tapatalk.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  16. #16
    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Trickster View Post
    Thank you for the responses.

    Does anyone know for certain that a person is required to show identification at one of these che..., ahem, roadblocks? Since there is no probable cause, RAS, etc. to justify the detention in the first place, how could a driver be obligated to show their license? A cop couldn't just stop you while you're driving a vehicle to perform a driver license check, so how can they do it here?

    Again, your insight and thoughts are greatly appreciated.
    This should explain everything perfectly for ya.

    Check out his channel, he has many videos of him doing this at the BP checks

    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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  17. #17
    Regular Member The Trickster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GWbiker View Post
    This thread is an ongoing whine for past five years.

    Lot's of bitching from outsiders but no one willing to fix border security issue in Arizona.


    Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk
    I'm not an "outsider." I am an Arizona resident and a citizen of the United States of America. Furthermore, I am not whining about anything; rather, I am trying to rid myself of any and all ignorance I have pertaining to the topic of roadblocks. Since I do carry and may very well encounter a roadblock situation while doing so, I am attempting to garner as much information and knowledge as possible. Indeed, knowledge protects while ignorance endangers. Also, I searched for the answers to my questions prior to starting this thread, but to no avail.

  18. #18
    Regular Member The Trickster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Since you're not getting an solid answers here yet, you could also check websites for your local/state ACLU, AAA, and so forth--anybody who might have an interest in driving and rights.

    Heh, heh, heh. Then you can come back and stand tall by revealing what you learned. Instant forum brownie points, guaranteed. No cigars or cookies, though. We're not that generous.
    Great idea! Thank you. Too bad about the cigars, though...

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    This should explain everything perfectly for ya.

    Check out his channel, he has many videos of him doing this at the BP checks

    Thanks for the link. I'm actually a big fan of his and I'm subscribed to his Youtube channel.

  20. #20
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    I've never gone thru a checkpoint unarmed... here, NM or TX. 'Only thing I been asked (if at all) is: 'Are you n American citizen?' Yes! 'Get waved on... have a nice day. Once i had the AK clone stuffed between the seat and the center console (in AZ).: 'Nice gun!' Don't do that in Texas.

    You go lookin' for a confrontation, you'll find it. The dork with the video camera playing provacateur needs a boot in his hissy-fit ass. 'Like that Trickster? But... you're a 'resident of Arizona' huh? So why the query as to traversing the checkpoints while armed? Anyone whose lived here any time at all has done so. People do it everyday... In fact, like most LEO's they assume everyone in AZ is armed. Where do you think these BP people live? Cleveland?

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonora Rebel View Post
    I've never gone thru a checkpoint unarmed... here, NM or TX. 'Only thing I been asked (if at all) is: 'Are you n American citizen?' Yes! 'Get waved on... have a nice day. Once i had the AK clone stuffed between the seat and the center console (in AZ).: 'Nice gun!' Don't do that in Texas.

    You go lookin' for a confrontation, you'll find it. The dork with the video camera playing provacateur needs a boot in his hissy-fit ass. 'Like that Trickster? But... you're a 'resident of Arizona' huh? So why the query as to traversing the checkpoints while armed? Anyone whose lived here any time at all has done so. People do it everyday... In fact, like most LEO's they assume everyone in AZ is armed. Where do you think these BP people live? Cleveland?
    You mean you're a provacatuer for asserting your rights that many generations have died for? I think not. You have a right to travel within your country unharassed. I don't need to show my papers to the US Border Patrol, I am a citizen, and as a citizen I have rights. even if I answer "no" to the question how is that probable cause? not being a citizen does not mean you're in the country illegally. Last I checked permanent residents are not excluded the same rights as citizens under the constitution except to vote or hold public office.

    And think about this, if all someone has to do is say "yes" and they have no power to verify that, how effective is this really as a form of securing the border? Or they're choosing to search hispanics more often which means they're violating the civil rights act.


    Tell you what, why are going out with a gun in public? why do you have your AK in the car? tell me Sonora, why are you seeking a confrontation?
    Last edited by EMNofSeattle; 11-17-2012 at 05:52 PM.
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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    The Right Way to Do A Roadblock--Preach Jesus

    This driver is brilliant. The roablocker asks him if he's a citizen, and he turns the question around, putting the priority on salvation.

    The government pest running the roadblock quickly....well, just watch. Its too funny. SFW.

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f76_1353000314
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Running thru a checkpoint (DUI or BP) doesn't work out too well down here.

    A DPS car usually is posted just past the roadblock ready to pull over an offender.

    BTW, DUI checkpoints have been around for some 40 years, as I recall seeing them in Atlantic County New Jersey in 1971.
    I'm sure courts have ruled them to be legal. Thank the people in MADD for that.

  24. #24
    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GWbiker View Post
    Running thru a checkpoint (DUI or BP) doesn't work out too well down here.

    A DPS car usually is posted just past the roadblock ready to pull over an offender.

    BTW, DUI checkpoints have been around for some 40 years, as I recall seeing them in Atlantic County New Jersey in 1971.
    I'm sure courts have ruled them to be legal. Thank the people in MADD for that.
    If you watch the videos, no one runs the checkpoints, they just keep asking if they're being detained until waived through, except in Citizen's video where the motorist goes all evangelical on the agent...

    DUI checkpoints were validated in Michigan v. Sitz which ruled that DUI checkpoints were constitutional under the 4th amendment. the stop is considered a "seizure" however and to keep someone detained past the time it takes to ask brief queries the officers need probable cause to prolong or search

    (The Michigan Supreme Court later determined that DUI checkpoints violated Michigan's constitution)

    The immigration checks in question here stem from U.S. v Martinez-Fuerte which validated stops at PERMANENT checkpoints, the scope of the checkpoint is limited to immigration queries and probable cause or consent is needed for a search or prolonged detention. They have no authority to hold you at the checkpoint if there is no probable cause you are an illegal alien.

    They tried to put up checkpoints on the Olympic Penninsula in Washington state, and it's funny because after the checkpoint was up for a few weeks they kept calling the Jefferson County sheriff to write citations for blocking the road if people were asserting their rights, or asking if they would assist the BP, and after only a few weeks the Sheriff announced his deputies weren't doing the dirty work for the border patrol anymore that same day the city council of nearby Port Townsend drafted a resolution ordering their city police officers not to assist the border patrol in any way unless it was immediately nessecary to protect human life. shortly thereafter the checkpoints stopped.

    Really the border patrol is just a nuissance up there. A friend of mine has a friend (yes I've met both, I know this story to be true) who owns a private airfield on the olympic peninsula, and the border patrol kept driving up his driveway and would park their cars on the airfield and walk around his hangers and check out the junker cars laying on the side of the field, also what's wierd, the border patrol agents on the olympic are monitoring the county sheriff and state patrol dispatch and keep showing up at calls that are traditionally the purview of local law enforcement or state highway patrol. I'm serious, this picture here was who all showed up to a minor accident with no injuries reported, the two guys in black are Sequiem Police Officers, all the people in green are US CBP


    and the few towns on the peninsula are all either solidly liberal or pseudo libertarian, it's safe to say few people really want them there.
    Last edited by EMNofSeattle; 11-18-2012 at 03:01 AM.
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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  25. #25
    Regular Member okiebryan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Trickster View Post
    Thanks for the link. I'm actually a big fan of his and I'm subscribed to his Youtube channel.
    That Border Patrol agent is kinda hawt. I'd definitely let her detain me under the right circumstances.

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