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Thread: Fairfax County Detains OCer at Beacon Hill Mall

  1. #1
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    Fairfax County Detains OCer at Beacon Hill Mall

    This was posted in the NoVA OC experiences thread. According to the OCer it happened on 11/12/12.

    Quote Originally Posted by moriar View Post
    So rather new, but yesterday I parked at the beacon hill parking lot walked past a FCPD cruiser and went into the starbucks, paid no attention to the cop that was in the car just walked into store made my order then waited. When I walked back to my car, noticed that the cruiser had multiplied to two. But since there is a few resturaunts figured nothing of it, so hopped in the car and spent 5 or so minutes responding to text messages, then i hear a knock on the right rear of my car and look to the right and notice a male officer with hand on holstered weapon, and then heard another tap on the left side of the car on my window, female officer was at the window.

    Rolled the window down, and the officer immediately asked for my ID, now before you get in the hub bub of Why did you give ID, they waited till the perfect time to ask for ID. I was in a motor vehicle. So I handed her my ID aswell as my CHP even tho I was OC at the time. The officer then asks if I was waiting for anyone or if I had any purpose of being at the outlet, for which I replied with I was a patron of the outlet aswell as I am sure you watched me walk into the starbucks and back. Then she smiled and said have a good day, but by this time the number of cruisers grew to four cars.. she then terminated the encounter and handed the cards back and slowly walked back to their respective cruisers, So i decided to go back to what i was doing and waited till they left the scene.

    for the TLR

    Walked past cruiser
    Went to starbucks
    went back to car
    read text messages
    approached by FCPD while in my car
    Asked for ID
    Asked for purpose in lot
    terminated encounter
    then idled to make them waste time.
    Last edited by Citizen; 11-13-2012 at 06:30 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    I agree with Grapeshot's comment in the other thread that this was a detention--the cop hand on their weapon.

    Also, the demand for ID is telling. They weren't there to check his driver qualifications since they didn't ask for license and registration.

    This needs to be hammered.

    One possible way to address it is with a FOIA avalanche. A FOIA avalanche is when multiple people send FOIAs. It uses the bureacracy against itself. The idea comes from prisoners in the Soviet gulag. They discovered that every prisoner formal complaint had to be dealt with by the bureacracy. So, a whole bunch of prisoners got togther and started writing complaints. We're talking numerous prisoners, organized, writing six complaints or more a day. It completely jammed the system, nothing else was getting done by the bureacracy. One complaint was apparently misrouted to the Politburo. By the time it was all done, things were better, at least one prisoner was released, and the warden was retired early. The prisoners used the bureacrats fear of not following the rules against them. If a bureacrat doesn't follow the rules, its a black mark on his record, and for a junior executive, starts to open the door for an ambitious subordinate who wants his position.

    A FOIA avalanche would use the statutory requirement to comply and, if it exists in a police department, the unwillingness to not follow the rules.

    FOIAs to FCPD go to internal affairs I believe. I have this vague recollection they go to the inspections section.

    So, if NoVA guys want to get a FOIA avalanche going, its probably smartest to organize it off-forum by PM. I'll make a list in another post below of possible things to FOIA, and then we can split up the list. That way we can send multiple FOIAs without duplication.

    First, though, we need to get some details, both for the FOIA, and to make sure we're not just barking up the wrong tree.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Details and Clarifications Request

    Moriar,

    Some questions that will help clarify:

    1. What time of day did the police encouter start? Got a time-stamped receipt from the coffee shop or something? (Oh, your text messages will give the time.)

    2. When the officer asked for ID, was the tone of voice a demand or request?

    3. Did the officer actually phrase it as ID, or did the office say drivers license? Can you recall which exact words?

    4. How long did the encounter itself last?

    5. Was there any other discussion with the cop besides what you gave already. If yes, please amend your report so we can see it all in one place. In fact, it might be easier to answer all these questions by amending your report. Then all the info will be in one place. Just copy your report from my OP here and post it as a reply to the thread titled Amended Report.

    6. Did anything at all happen on the way into the coffee shop, or while in the coffee shop that could give legitimate concern to another citizen or the shop employees to call the cops? Anything at all? Even if misinterpreted?

    7. Did you make a voice-recording? Whether you did or didn't, don't answer that here. PM me.
    Last edited by Citizen; 11-13-2012 at 07:26 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Below is the usual list of records that may exist for FOI request. I would point out that the magic appearance of more police cars after the encounter began practically guarantees the existence of radio traffic recordings and/or in-car text messages.


    Names of first officers.
    Names of late-arriving officers.
    Radio traffic recordings
    In-car text system messages--from each car involved.
    Dash cam and officer body-mic recordings--from both officers at his car.
    Field contact report notes--the report cops write after an encounter.
    Written departmental policies regarding contacting OCers if OCers are expressly mentioned.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Two officers, at least one with a hand on his firearm IS a detention. Try meeting Officer Friendly with a hand on yours and see if he thinks it's just a "friendly little voluntary chat about the weather."

    The detention occurred on private property, I suspect traffic ordinances in most states apply only to vehicles being driven on public roads and highways.

    As the vehicle was stationary, I doubt there could be any suspicion of a traffic ordinance being violated, so there was no cause to either ask for or demand a driving license.

    Seeing a driving license or any other identification without at Least a suspicion of some sort of criminal activity is VERY unlikely to prove anyone's innocence. Officer Friendly wants to see who he's dealing with so he can find out if the person being field interviewed is wanted for any crimes.

    He's looking to do his job
    He's looking for a criminal to arrest
    He's looking at you

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    Thanks Citizen, I have filled in your questions,

    Some questions that will help clarify:

    1. What time of day did the police encouter start? Got a time-stamped receipt from the coffee shop or something? (Oh, your text messages will give the time.)
    Monday - 2:45-325pm (Initial arrival, to termination of encounter) (Edited to reflect text messages.)

    2. When the officer asked for ID, was the tone of voice a demand or request?
    Actually she was quite friendly and came across flirtatious, but with a hint of suspicion underneath.

    3. Did the officer actually phrase it as ID, or did the office say drivers license? Can you recall which exact words?
    iirc started with Hello there, I noticed you walking back from the storefronts with a weapon on your side and can I see some ID please.

    4. How long did the encounter itself last?

    The encounter lasted maybe 2 and half songs, so maybe like 7-8 minutes? rather quick, I think its because I gave ID rather quick.

    5. Was there any other discussion with the cop besides what you gave already. If yes, please amend your report so we can see it all in one place. In fact, it might be easier to answer all these questions by amending your report. Then all the info will be in one place. Just copy your report from my OP here and post it as a reply to the thread titled Amended Report.

    No prior conversation, all conversation was mentioned here.

    6. Did anything at all happen on the way into the coffee shop, or while in the coffee shop that could give legitimate concern to another citizen or the shop employees to call the cops? Anything at all? Even if misinterpreted?

    Not that I can tell off hand, while in starbucks no one noticed firearm that I could tell, they had a huge line so most people were in a hustle to get drink and leave. Maybe when I got out of car initially it sparked her curiuosity?

    7. Did you make a voice-recording? Whether you did or didn't, don't answer that here. PM me.
    Last edited by moriar; 11-13-2012 at 09:12 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moriar View Post
    Thanks Citizen, I have filled in your questions,

    Some questions that will help clarify:

    1. What time of day did the police encouter start? Got a time-stamped receipt from the coffee shop or something? (Oh, your text messages will give the time.)
    Monday - 2:45-325pm (Initial arrival, to termination of encounter) (Edited to reflect text messages.)

    .
    What time did the encounter start? When did the police knock on your window, as close as you can determine?
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    What time did the encounter start? When did the police knock on your window, as close as you can determine?
    Initial contact puts it around 305-310 as my starbucks receipt says 250 which would put it about the right time for waiting for my pumpkin white mocha to be made. ( yes fru fru coffee )

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    2. When the officer asked for ID, was the tone of voice a demand or request?
    Actually she was quite friendly and came across flirtatious, but with a hint of suspicion underneath.
    OK, so there was no identity demand.

    3. Did the officer actually phrase it as ID, or did the office say drivers license? Can you recall which exact words?

    iirc started with Hello there, I noticed you walking back from the storefronts with a weapon on your side and can I see some ID please.
    OK, so this was not a traffic stop. It was a Terry Stop that just happened to occur while seated in a car.

    4. How long did the encounter itself last?
    The encounter lasted maybe 2 and half songs, so maybe like 7-8 minutes? rather quick, I think its because I gave ID rather quick.
    OK, kinda short. I'll ask a couple more questions in the next post.

    I got the rest of the answers too, thanks.
    Last edited by Citizen; 11-13-2012 at 09:27 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Were there any police comments about keeping your hands where they could see them?

    Any requests or demands to seize the gun for officer safety?
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    2. When the officer asked for ID, was the tone of voice a demand or request?
    Actually she was quite friendly and came across flirtatious, but with a hint of suspicion underneath.
    OK, so there was no identity demand.

    3. Did the officer actually phrase it as ID, or did the office say drivers license? Can you recall which exact words?

    iirc started with Hello there, I noticed you walking back from the storefronts with a weapon on your side and can I see some ID please.
    OK, so this was not a traffic stop. It was a Terry Stop that just happened to occur while seated in a car.

    4. How long did the encounter itself last?
    The encounter lasted maybe 2 and half songs, so maybe like 7-8 minutes? rather quick, I think its because I gave ID rather quick.
    OK, kinda short. I'll ask a couple more questions in the next post.

    I got the rest of the answers too, thanks.
    I definitely would put the encounter a 8/10 for respect as person to me in which i was spoken to, however my issue was not with the female officer as she i dont know what to call it, but "talked / id'd me". The issue was with the male officer with hand on holstered weapon as I was a bit scared to make a movement and he might have over reacted out of "officer safety".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Were there any police comments about keeping your hands where they could see them?

    Any requests or demands to seize the gun for officer safety?
    No requests from the police to keep my hands where they could see them, I pretty much always have my ID / CHP / Insurance card in my lanyard around my neck since it has my fed id card aswell with it. so i kept my hands on the steering wheel cept for initial roll down of window.


    No request for seizure of weapon for officer safety was made.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen
    One possible way to address it is with a FOIA avalanche.
    ...
    A FOIA avalanche would use the statutory requirement to comply and, if it exists in a police department, the unwillingness to not follow the rules.
    There's the rub.
    I've even had a city attorney get in on the illegal action, denying a FOIA request unless I signed a promise not to sue them.
    The judge agreed that they shouldn't have done that.
    Not only did they have to give the information to me (my attorney) free, they had to pay his fees & a (small) fine to me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    There's the rub.
    I've even had a city attorney get in on the illegal action, denying a FOIA request unless I signed a promise not to sue them.
    The judge agreed that they shouldn't have done that.
    Not only did they have to give the information to me (my attorney) free, they had to pay his fees & a (small) fine to me.
    Well, yes. They can do whatever. Two things you have to keep in mind.

    One, just because they do nothing, or circle the wagons, doesn't mean they don't get the point. The cops involved in the Tony's incident denied every OCer allegation about what happened at the restaurant. However, not one OCer has been harassed in that burg since then.

    Two, lets say the OCer in today's situation decided to accept our offer of a FOIA avalanche, even if the cops decide to refuse illegally every one, some sergeant who receives these things is gonna say, "Cap'n, I been getting a ton of these things. Can you pass the word that I've got better things to do." And, if there are a bunch of illegal refusals, it just gives the pro-FOIA groups more evidence to take to the General Assembly to put some teeth into the FOIA law.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Are you required to have a driver's license while in control of a motor vehicle on private property in Virginia?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Well, yes. They can do whatever. Two things you have to keep in mind.

    One, just because they do nothing, or circle the wagons, doesn't mean they don't get the point. The cops involved in the Tony's incident denied every OCer allegation about what happened at the restaurant. However, not one OCer has been harassed in that burg since then.

    Two, lets say the OCer in today's situation decided to accept our offer of a FOIA avalanche, even if the cops decide to refuse illegally every one, some sergeant who receives these things is gonna say, "Cap'n, I been getting a ton of these things. Can you pass the word that I've got better things to do." And, if there are a bunch of illegal refusals, it just gives the pro-FOIA groups more evidence to take to the General Assembly to put some teeth into the FOIA law.
    Pitchforks unite, unleash the foia

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Just a slightly related thought here, it is now illegal to send text messages while driving in Virginia. If you are sitting in a stopped vehicle, actively using your phone, that would seem to be the first reply... "Certainly officer, you are aware I cannot text while driving... I am texting, therefore I am not driving."

    TFred

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    The OCer Accepts the Offer for a FOIA Barrage

    Quote Originally Posted by moriar View Post
    Pitchforks unite, unleash the foia

    OK, folks. He's willing for us to undertake a FOI barrage.

    Here's a link to a sample FOI request. It also has helpful hints learned the hard way over time. I would like to stress that you definitely want to put a limiter on the cost you want to pay when it comes to Fairfax County PD.

    I was thinking we would need to coordinate by PM who is going to ask for which records, but the more I think about it, the less I think that is needed. I would recommend just PMing Moriar to let him know what you are requesting so he can keep up with which records are not being requested and can request them himself. He can tell us how many requesters are participating.

    I suggest waiting until next Monday to send mail the FOI requests. This gives enough time for various members to get on board, get their FOIs written, and poised for mailing.

    Here again is the list of possible records:

    Names of first officers.
    Names of late-arriving officers.
    Radio traffic recordings
    In-car text system messages--from each car involved. (four possible sets of records)
    Dash cam and officer body-mic recordings--from both officers at his car.
    Field contact report notes--the report cops write after an encounter.
    Written departmental policies regarding contacting OCers if OCers are expressly mentioned. (You're going to have to word this one carefully to exclude getting twenty pages of policy on dealing with armed suspects when all you are looking for is good-guy OCers).
    Last edited by Citizen; 11-14-2012 at 01:12 AM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    3. Did the officer actually phrase it as ID, or did the office say drivers license? Can you recall which exact words?

    iirc started with Hello there, I noticed you walking back from the storefronts with a weapon on your side and can I see some ID please.
    OK, so this was not a traffic stop. It was a Terry Stop that just happened to occur while seated in a car.
    Please explain what crime the cop has RAS was about to be committed, was being committing or had been committed.

    As you do note, the stop/detention/arrest took place while the individual was seated in the car. It is very probable that this happened in order to give some tactical advantage to the cops - easier to surround him when he's in the car, restricts his ability to see where all the otgher cops are, being seated in the car restrictes his mobility and makes drawing a bit more difficult than if standing out in the open. As opposed to believing it just took them so long to walk on over.

    stay safe.
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    I wasn't going to post about this and didn't last night since the Mexicans gave me a sugar reading a little over 400...but since the thread isn't going away and I haven't upset the ChiPpers, Novites or girlie cops in Farifax for at least 48 hours, I'm going to speak my mind.

    First, I don't understand why any are surprised at this. The Fairfax PD isn't worth a damn, never has been and probably never will be. For the Newbies, do a search for "Novacop" who is a Fairfax Cop and just as an interesting point, is also from North Carolina. That should tell all you need to know about the Fairfax PD.

    We've sung their praise as having cleaned up their act. Bull Ship! There are two memorable quotes about the Surry Incident. One Cop from James City PD said, "If it had happened on this side of the river, it wouldn't have happened".

    Another reputable source said "If it had happened in Fairfax he'd have been convicted because they're good at drumming up charges".

    So the truth is, Fairfax hasn't become more law abiding, they've just become better predators.

    I see very little reason to complain about a skunk for smelling bad!

    Now to the rest of this. Since the OP is from North Carolina I'll cut him some slack. There isn't anything wrong with showing ID if he wants to, It doesn't hurt anyone but him and probably didn't hurt anyway. That's a personal decision everyone has to make from time to time.

    What does gall me is that he was OCing...which is fine and dandy, but when he was asked for ID, he also gave the Cop his CHP. WHY?

    Again, I don't have a dog in this fight and if he wants to play dressup up north, no skin off of my nose except he came here to complain about it.

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    Thoughts about the FOIA requests. Probably won't get anything. Consensual stop while doing their job. No criminal activity, why turn on dashcams? No police vox, no records, no reports, don't know as anything happened.

    I would be surprised if anything results. If anything maybe an ID check via radio.
    When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nuc65 View Post
    Thoughts about the FOIA requests. Probably won't get anything. Consensual stop while doing their job. No criminal activity, why turn on dashcams? No police vox, no records, no reports, don't know as anything happened.

    I would be surprised if anything results. If anything maybe an ID check via radio.
    If it was a consensual stop, couldn't he just have driven away, ignoring them in the process?
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    I wasn't going to post about this and didn't last night since the Mexicans gave me a sugar reading a little over 400...but since the thread isn't going away and I haven't upset the ChiPpers, Novites or girlie cops in Farifax for at least 48 hours, I'm going to speak my mind.

    First, I don't understand why any are surprised at this. The Fairfax PD isn't worth a damn, never has been and probably never will be. For the Newbies, do a search for "Novacop" who is a Fairfax Cop and just as an interesting point, is also from North Carolina. That should tell all you need to know about the Fairfax PD.

    We've sung their praise as having cleaned up their act. Bull Ship! There are two memorable quotes about the Surry Incident. One Cop from James City PD said, "If it had happened on this side of the river, it wouldn't have happened".

    Another reputable source said "If it had happened in Fairfax he'd have been convicted because they're good at drumming up charges".

    So the truth is, Fairfax hasn't become more law abiding, they've just become better predators.

    I see very little reason to complain about a skunk for smelling bad!

    Now to the rest of this. Since the OP is from North Carolina I'll cut him some slack. There isn't anything wrong with showing ID if he wants to, It doesn't hurt anyone but him and probably didn't hurt anyway. That's a personal decision everyone has to make from time to time.

    What does gall me is that he was OCing...which is fine and dandy, but when he was asked for ID, he also gave the Cop his CHP. WHY?

    Again, I don't have a dog in this fight and if he wants to play dressup up north, no skin off of my nose except he came here to complain about it.

    And when was the last time you were north of the Ni? Surely you're not speaking from experience.

    This area is normally surprisingly good, even though the shopping center in which the OP was stopped is in the middle of a high-crime area.

  24. #24
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tess View Post
    And when was the last time you were north of the Ni? Surely you're not speaking from experience.

    This area is normally surprisingly good, even though the shopping center in which the OP was stopped is in the middle of a high-crime area.
    You'd be surprised where I go when I have to Tess. I may set up a Facebook where I am account in the future.
    But if Novites are happy with with their LEO's.....so be it. Please keep them all when Mary Land takes over though.

    To the OP...I'd like to know why you gave the Police Officer your CHP?
    Last edited by peter nap; 11-14-2012 at 03:32 PM.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    If it was a consensual stop, couldn't he just have driven away, ignoring them in the process?
    The cop's hand on his gun made it non-consensual.1

    In theory, a consensual encounter, by definition, means the cop can be ignored. The trick is in figuring out whether it is a consensual encounter. Sometimes its clear, like when a cop asks if you need help changing a tire or would like to donate to the Benevolent Society for Retired Cops. Other times, especially when you are being investigated, it can be kinda hard to tell. And, cops are known to dodge the question when asked, "Am I free to go?" (Its to their immediate advantage to keep the water murky--it keeps the suspect from leaving.) Also, if a person decides it is a consensual encounter and leaves without being told he is free to go, then some of this may apply: http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...e-Cop-has-RAS&



    1. US vs Mendenhall:

    We conclude that a person has been "seized" within the meaning of the Fourth Amendment only if, in view of all of the circumstances surrounding the incident, a reasonable person would have believed that he was not free to leave. Examples of circumstances that might indicate a seizure, even where the person did not attempt to leave, would be the threatening presence of several officers, the display of a weapon by an officer, some physical touching of the person of the citizen, or the use of language or tone of voice indicating that compliance with the officer's request might be compelled. (Bold emphasis added by Citizen)

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/htm...6_0544_ZO.html


    More references on 4A and 5A issues: http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...ources-Here!!&
    Last edited by Citizen; 11-14-2012 at 03:33 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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