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Fairfax County Detains OCer at Beacon Hill Mall

nuc65

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Thoughts about the FOIA requests. Probably won't get anything. Consensual stop while doing their job. No criminal activity, why turn on dashcams? No police vox, no records, no reports, don't know as anything happened.

I would be surprised if anything results. If anything maybe an ID check via radio.
 

SouthernBoy

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Thoughts about the FOIA requests. Probably won't get anything. Consensual stop while doing their job. No criminal activity, why turn on dashcams? No police vox, no records, no reports, don't know as anything happened.

I would be surprised if anything results. If anything maybe an ID check via radio.

If it was a consensual stop, couldn't he just have driven away, ignoring them in the process?
 

Tess

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I wasn't going to post about this and didn't last night since the Mexicans gave me a sugar reading a little over 400:uhoh:...but since the thread isn't going away and I haven't upset the ChiPpers, Novites or girlie cops in Farifax for at least 48 hours, I'm going to speak my mind.

First, I don't understand why any are surprised at this. The Fairfax PD isn't worth a damn, never has been and probably never will be. For the Newbies, do a search for "Novacop" who is a Fairfax Cop and just as an interesting point, is also from North Carolina. That should tell all you need to know about the Fairfax PD.

We've sung their praise as having cleaned up their act. Bull Ship! There are two memorable quotes about the Surry Incident. One Cop from James City PD said, "If it had happened on this side of the river, it wouldn't have happened".

Another reputable source said "If it had happened in Fairfax he'd have been convicted because they're good at drumming up charges".

So the truth is, Fairfax hasn't become more law abiding, they've just become better predators.

I see very little reason to complain about a skunk for smelling bad!

Now to the rest of this. Since the OP is from North Carolina I'll cut him some slack. There isn't anything wrong with showing ID if he wants to, It doesn't hurt anyone but him and probably didn't hurt anyway. That's a personal decision everyone has to make from time to time.

What does gall me is that he was OCing...which is fine and dandy, but when he was asked for ID, he also gave the Cop his CHP. WHY?

Again, I don't have a dog in this fight and if he wants to play dressup up north, no skin off of my nose except he came here to complain about it.


And when was the last time you were north of the Ni? Surely you're not speaking from experience.

This area is normally surprisingly good, even though the shopping center in which the OP was stopped is in the middle of a high-crime area.
 

peter nap

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And when was the last time you were north of the Ni? Surely you're not speaking from experience.

This area is normally surprisingly good, even though the shopping center in which the OP was stopped is in the middle of a high-crime area.

You'd be surprised where I go when I have to Tess. I may set up a Facebook where I am account in the future.
But if Novites are happy with with their LEO's.....so be it. Please keep them all when Mary Land takes over though.

To the OP...I'd like to know why you gave the Police Officer your CHP?
 
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Citizen

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If it was a consensual stop, couldn't he just have driven away, ignoring them in the process?

The cop's hand on his gun made it non-consensual.[SUP]1[/SUP]

In theory, a consensual encounter, by definition, means the cop can be ignored. The trick is in figuring out whether it is a consensual encounter. Sometimes its clear, like when a cop asks if you need help changing a tire or would like to donate to the Benevolent Society for Retired Cops. Other times, especially when you are being investigated, it can be kinda hard to tell. And, cops are known to dodge the question when asked, "Am I free to go?" (Its to their immediate advantage to keep the water murky--it keeps the suspect from leaving.) Also, if a person decides it is a consensual encounter and leaves without being told he is free to go, then some of this may apply: http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/s...-Correctly-Determine-Whether-the-Cop-has-RAS&



1. US vs Mendenhall:

We conclude that a person has been "seized" within the meaning of the Fourth Amendment only if, in view of all of the circumstances surrounding the incident, a reasonable person would have believed that he was not free to leave. Examples of circumstances that might indicate a seizure, even where the person did not attempt to leave, would be the threatening presence of several officers, the display of a weapon by an officer, some physical touching of the person of the citizen, or the use of language or tone of voice indicating that compliance with the officer's request might be compelled. (Bold emphasis added by Citizen)

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0446_0544_ZO.html


More references on 4A and 5A issues: http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/s...-Your-4th-and-5th-Amendment-Resources-Here!!&
 
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skidmark

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The cop's hand on his gun made it non-consensual.[SUP]1[/SUP]

In theory, a consensual encounter, by definition, means the cop can be ignored. The trick is in figuring out whether it is a consensual encounter. Sometimes its clear, like when a cop asks if you need help changing a tire or would like to donate to the Benevolent Society for Retired Cops. Other times, especially when you are being investigated, it can be kinda hard to tell. And, cops are known to dodge the question when asked, "Am I free to go?" (Its to their immediate advantage to keep the water murky--it keeps the suspect from leaving.) Also, if a person decides it is a consensual encounter and leaves without being told he is free to go, then some of this may apply: http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/s...-Correctly-Determine-Whether-the-Cop-has-RAS&



1. US vs Mendenhall:

We conclude that a person has been "seized" within the meaning of the Fourth Amendment only if, in view of all of the circumstances surrounding the incident, a reasonable person would have believed that he was not free to leave. Examples of circumstances that might indicate a seizure, even where the person did not attempt to leave, would be the threatening presence of several officers, the display of a weapon by an officer, some physical touching of the person of the citizen, or the use of language or tone of voice indicating that compliance with the officer's request might be compelled. (Bold emphasis added by Citizen)

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0446_0544_ZO.html


More references on 4A and 5A issues: http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/s...-Your-4th-and-5th-Amendment-Resources-Here!!&

Wait a minnit!

Didn't you just say above that it was a Terry stop?

Yup, thought you did:
2. When the officer asked for ID, was the tone of voice a demand or request?
Actually she was quite friendly and came across flirtatious, but with a hint of suspicion underneath.
OK, so there was no identity demand.

3. Did the officer actually phrase it as ID, or did the office say drivers license? Can you recall which exact words?

iirc started with Hello there, I noticed you walking back from the storefronts with a weapon on your side and can I see some ID please.
OK, so this was not a traffic stop. It was a Terry Stop that just happened to occur while seated in a car.

4. How long did the encounter itself last?
The encounter lasted maybe 2 and half songs, so maybe like 7-8 minutes? rather quick, I think its because I gave ID rather quick.
OK, kinda short. I'll ask a couple more questions in the next post.

I got the rest of the answers too, thanks.

So, if it was not a Terry stop, because the cop had no RAS that a crime had been committed, was being committed, or was about to be committed, what - other than the application of the BISS* Doctrine - was the basis for the seizure? And we know it was not a consensual encounter, thank you very much, because of the case law you have cited.

stay safe.

BISS Doctrine - Because I Say So
 
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moriar

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You'd be surprised where I go when I have to Tess. I may set up a Facebook where I am account in the future.
But if Novites are happy with with their LEO's.....so be it. Please keep them all when Mary Land takes over though.

To the OP...I'd like to know why you gave the Police Officer your CHP?

Hello Peter,

Since I am fairly new to VA gun laws / gun in car, I only started being into 2A when I had moved to NC, I am now in the process of moving back up here and working, I do not know the in's and outs of the laws so since the firearm was holstered and out of sight of the cop while in the car I just wanted to make sure that my ducks are in a row. during this transitional period I have to remain on egg shells for sake of my job as I cannot afford to be a test case or possibly going up the ladder for my job.

So I assumed the safest thing I could do at that point to defuse the situation especially since I saw the male officer in a heightened state I would pull out the "Good Guy Card" and try to make the encounter shorter and just have my "Day" later, then for me to be pulled out of the car or worse.

hindsight says I should have stood up for myself and now I have allowed another cop to get the sense of BCISS mentality, but since I am a single income family I need to play my cards at the opportune time versus at that time.
 

Citizen

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Fairfax Co., VA
Wait a minnit!

Didn't you just say above that it was a Terry stop?

Yup, thought you did:


So, if it was not a Terry stop, because the cop had no RAS that a crime had been committed, was being committed, or was about to be committed, what - other than the application of the BISS* Doctrine - was the basis for the seizure? And we know it was not a consensual encounter, thank you very much, because of the case law you have cited.

stay safe.

BISS Doctrine - Because I Say So


Um. Were you saying I was contradicting myself? Or, were you just sorting it out aloud?

Just in case you're complaining about a contradiction:

You understand that at the point I wrote that it was a Terry Stop, I was distinguishing the non-consensual encounter from a traffic stop, not making a declaration of legality, right?

Also, separately, and severably, by that point in the thread we did not know whether something happened in the coffee shop that gave rise to RAS.

Also, at that point in the thread, and even now, we did not/do not know if someone in the coffee shop called the police and said something that gave rise to genuine RAS for the cop.


At this point, since we were not witnesses, we have to draw conclusions and work on probabilities. For example, the strongest indicator that there was no RAS is the rapidity with which the cops returned the ID and let him go. Unless the cop was working from the specious idea that the gun became concealed upon entering the car, with his permit ending that line of inquiry, the fast encounter tends towards the cops having no genuine RAS; otherwise there would have been more investigation and more questions.
 
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peter nap

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I'm going to take that a piece at a time moriar. Hope you don't mind but it can get confusing. The part about the Fairfax PD is pretty self explaining. There are some FOIA's involved in my comments but most of it was common knowledge anyway.

Hello Peter,

Since I am fairly new to VA gun laws / gun in car, I only started being into 2A when I had moved to NC, I am now in the process of moving back up here and working, I do not know the in's and outs of the laws so since the firearm was holstered and out of sight of the cop while in the car I just wanted to make sure that my ducks are in a row. during this transitional period I have to remain on egg shells for sake of my job as I cannot afford to be a test case or possibly going up the ladder for my job.

That's why I said I was going to cut you some slack and even if you weren't from NC, what you do as far as cooperating is your business.

So I assumed the safest thing I could do at that point to defuse the situation especially since I saw the male officer in a heightened state I would pull out the "Good Guy Card" and try to make the encounter shorter and just have my "Day" later, then for me to be pulled out of the car or worse.

That part is a little concerning more so because of your reference to "A good guy card" than anything else. Is a CHP holder that is OCing more of a good guy than someone without one? No need to answer that, it was rhetorical but that attitude is exactly the way many people feel. These people ask for special privileges that have nothing to do with concealing...because they think they're "The Good Guys" and if they had their way, Virginia would require a permit to OC.
The CHP Instructors would just love that to happen.


hindsight says I should have stood up for myself and now I have allowed another cop to get the sense of BCISS mentality, but since I am a single income family I need to play my cards at the opportune time versus at that time.

Standing up for yourself doesn't necessarily mean a confrontation....Even in NOVA. Just stand your ground (Pun intended).
As I said earlier, giving ID is a personal thing. The thing to have done is give your drivers license if you're inclined and put the ball back in the Cop's court. If she asked for your CHP, ask if you need one to Open Carry.
Now the simple fact is, as soon as she ran your information, she knew you had a CHP anyway if it was a VA CHP
(One in a long list of reasons to not have one)...but just handing it over without even being asked sets a bad example for the next person who isn't going to show it or doesn't have one.
 
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Citizen

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Gawd! But that much red is blinding. I would probably say Peter makes good points--if I could see them through the glare! Where's my sunglasses? :p:)
 

peter nap

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Gawd! But that much red is blinding. I would probably say Peter makes good points--if I could see them through the glare! Where's my sunglasses? :p:)

I would have made it blue but Sheriff has the patent on that. I'll make it Christmassy.:lol:
 

Citizen

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I would have made it blue but Sheriff has the patent on that. I'll make it Christmassy.:lol:

Oh, jeez. Less glaring, but no easier to read.

What? Do you work for a department store or something. Its not even Thanksgiving, and you're breaking out the Christmas stuff.

I give up.

:p:D
 

moriar

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I'm going to take that a piece at a time moriar. Hope you don't mind but it can get confusing. The part about the Fairfax PD is pretty self explaining. There are some FOIA's involved in my comments but most of it was common knowledge anyway.

Hello Peter,

Please do not construe when I say "good guy card" with that I believe i am better than the guy next to me with out one, it just so happens to be what the police think if they cant assure we dont have guns at all, Personally I am a constitution biding man, 2A clearly states the law. But as I said I unfortunately cannot afford to get into a situation with the law at that point so I have to wait and get them back through other means by using a group with the influence to actually help make something happen instead of me sitting in the car going "NO ID FOR YOU, YOU HAVE NO RAS" and potentially getting myself arrested and having my job compromised as any arrests are a suspension of post till otherwise., and in the state of VA I have to identify while being in a motor vehicle iirc. So I did not want to pour gas on the situation with the officer as I could already tell the male officer was very nervous already and needed to deescalate the situation. (if you cant tell what i do by now, I dont know how else to explain)
 

Mayhem

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Ya.. I just wish cops would turn a blind eye to anything they see and let people do what they want. They are getting paid to work for us and clearly they should not have been bothering this guy.

I do not care if it was a high crime area and they saw some guy with a gun. It is legal to carry and they had no proof he was planning to hurt anyone at that moment. Makes no difference if there are armed robberies in the area before. Not our concern!!! They have no business trying to keep the community safe and the shopping center free of crime. We can protect ourselves and we do not need them there. They need to just sit and wait for us to call 9-1-1. We will tell them when they need to come to the scene.

I guess they could have drew down on him and conducted a felony stop. Prone him out, disarm him, run his serial number, check him for warrants. They could also have yelled at him and spoke to him in a demeaning tone too. Even detaining him for an hour or so asking a ton of questions. But they did none of that. Hmmm!!!

Ya, they really f'ed up here so I think we are right on track for punishing that department!! We will make them learn not to mess with the public. Let's hit the inspections bureau with a ton of paperwork and crush the system. Let's really screw with an employee that was not even there and make him do a ton of work!!! hahahahaha!!!!

I do not care how good their intention was................ I want them fired!
 

peter nap

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Thank you Mayhem!
I see they changed your meds again.
They'll get it right someday.:uhoh:
 

Shannon Hensley

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Some folks just can't get the point.. the guy shouldn't have been screwed with at all to begin with.. they had no reason. Now If someone had walked up to the cop an said he pointed it at them or was waving it around I can see that,. but they had no cause to question this man to begin with.
How would you like to get pulled over while driving the speedlimit for doing nothing wrong and the cop ask for your ID. you ask him whats the problem and he says nothing, Just wanted to see your ID
How would that feel?
 
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user

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Here's what I'm reading into it: some bozo or bozette in the mall called 911 because of "PWAG" (nonsexist terminology). The cops have a policy that they have to respond, and when they were on the way, all they had was a cryptic message from DIS-patch about a suspicious person with a gun. They showed up and found there was no evidence of criminal misconduct, and having no reasonable suspicion, got in their cars and eventually left.

This was a detention, but merely an investigatory stop, for which no reasonable suspicion (much less probable cause) is required.

It is true that shopping mall parking lots are not "public highways" (though some other places, such as apartment project parking lots may or may not be depending on local ordinances). However, there are still crimes that may be committed that don't depend on whether or not one is on a public highway, such as DUI, reckless driving, and improper driving. That's because these are not traffic offenses, but misdemeanors. You can be convicted of DUI in your own driveway, and I represented a guy, once, who'd made "doughnuts" in his own lawn on a charge of reckless. So, if you're in a car in a position to be able to start it up and go, you're "operating a motor vehicle" and have to produce the license and registration on request.

I think everyone involved except the bozo/bozette did exactly what they should have. No harm, no foul.
 

Citizen

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Here's what I'm reading into it: some bozo or bozette in the mall called 911 because of "PWAG" (nonsexist terminology). The cops have a policy that they have to respond, and when they were on the way, all they had was a cryptic message from DIS-patch about a suspicious person with a gun. They showed up and found there was no evidence of criminal misconduct, and having no reasonable suspicion, got in their cars and eventually left.

This was a detention, but merely an investigatory stop, for which no reasonable suspicion (much less probable cause) is required.

It is true that shopping mall parking lots are not "public highways" (though some other places, such as apartment project parking lots may or may not be depending on local ordinances). However, there are still crimes that may be committed that don't depend on whether or not one is on a public highway, such as DUI, reckless driving, and improper driving. That's because these are not traffic offenses, but misdemeanors. You can be convicted of DUI in your own driveway, and I represented a guy, once, who'd made "doughnuts" in his own lawn on a charge of reckless. So, if you're in a car in a position to be able to start it up and go, you're "operating a motor vehicle" and have to produce the license and registration on request.

I think everyone involved except the bozo/bozette did exactly what they should have. No harm, no foul.

Just so your comments hang together and make sense, I'm hoping:

1. You meant to include the word not in front of "a detention."

2. And, that you're using the word stop loosely to signify a contact.

After we sort that out, then I'll decide whether I want to argue with a veteran criminal defense attorney. :eek::)
 
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user

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Nope, I wrote precisely what I meant. There are three levels of "arrest", a Norman French word we get from the period between William and Richard III, when French was the official legal language in England. It is a synonym for "stop". This was "level one": an investigatory stop. The cops have the power to stop someone just to ask questions, just as every other citizen does ("Hey, mister, wait up - have you got any spare change?"). The person is technically "detained" but has the right to walk away. "Detained" is like "made to pause", as opposed to the other levels in which reasonable suspicion and probable cause are required and in which one is not "free to leave."
 
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