Fairfax County Detains OCer at Beacon Hill Mall

This was posted in the NoVA OC experiences thread. According to the OCer it happened on 11/12/12.

moriar said:

So rather new, but yesterday I parked at the beacon hill parking lot walked past a FCPD cruiser and went into the starbucks, paid no attention to the cop that was in the car just walked into store made my order then waited. When I walked back to my car, noticed that the cruiser had multiplied to two. But since there is a few resturaunts figured nothing of it, so hopped in the car and spent 5 or so minutes responding to text messages, then i hear a knock on the right rear of my car and look to the right and notice a male officer with hand on holstered weapon, and then heard another tap on the left side of the car on my window, female officer was at the window.

Rolled the window down, and the officer immediately asked for my ID, now before you get in the hub bub of Why did you give ID, they waited till the perfect time to ask for ID. I was in a motor vehicle. So I handed her my ID aswell as my CHP even tho I was OC at the time. The officer then asks if I was waiting for anyone or if I had any purpose of being at the outlet, for which I replied with I was a patron of the outlet aswell as I am sure you watched me walk into the starbucks and back. Then she smiled and said have a good day, but by this time the number of cruisers grew to four cars.. she then terminated the encounter and handed the cards back and slowly walked back to their respective cruisers, So i decided to go back to what i was doing and waited till they left the scene.

for the TLR

Walked past cruiser
Went to starbucks
went back to car
read text messages
approached by FCPD while in my car
Asked for ID
Asked for purpose in lot
terminated encounter
then idled to make them waste time.

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I agree with Grapeshot's comment in the other thread that this was a detention--the cop hand on their weapon.

Also, the demand for ID is telling. They weren't there to check his driver qualifications since they didn't ask for license and registration.

This needs to be hammered.

One possible way to address it is with a FOIA avalanche. A FOIA avalanche is when multiple people send FOIAs. It uses the bureacracy against itself. The idea comes from prisoners in the Soviet gulag. They discovered that every prisoner formal complaint had to be dealt with by the bureacracy. So, a whole bunch of prisoners got togther and started writing complaints. We're talking numerous prisoners, organized, writing six complaints or more a day. It completely jammed the system, nothing else was getting done by the bureacracy. One complaint was apparently misrouted to the Politburo. By the time it was all done, things were better, at least one prisoner was released, and the warden was retired early. The prisoners used the bureacrats fear of not following the rules against them. If a bureacrat doesn't follow the rules, its a black mark on his record, and for a junior executive, starts to open the door for an ambitious subordinate who wants his position.

A FOIA avalanche would use the statutory requirement to comply and, if it exists in a police department, the unwillingness to not follow the rules.

FOIAs to FCPD go to internal affairs I believe. I have this vague recollection they go to the inspections section.

So, if NoVA guys want to get a FOIA avalanche going, its probably smartest to organize it off-forum by PM. I'll make a list in another post below of possible things to FOIA, and then we can split up the list. That way we can send multiple FOIAs without duplication.

First, though, we need to get some details, both for the FOIA, and to make sure we're not just barking up the wrong tree.

Details and Clarifications Request

Moriar,

Some questions that will help clarify:

1. What time of day did the police encouter start? Got a time-stamped receipt from the coffee shop or something? (Oh, your text messages will give the time.)

2. When the officer asked for ID, was the tone of voice a demand or request?

3. Did the officer actually phrase it as ID, or did the office say drivers license? Can you recall which exact words?

4. How long did the encounter itself last?

5. Was there any other discussion with the cop besides what you gave already. If yes, please amend your report so we can see it all in one place. In fact, it might be easier to answer all these questions by amending your report. Then all the info will be in one place. Just copy your report from my OP here and post it as a reply to the thread titled Amended Report.

6. Did anything at all happen on the way into the coffee shop, or while in the coffee shop that could give legitimate concern to another citizen or the shop employees to call the cops? Anything at all? Even if misinterpreted?

7. Did you make a voice-recording? Whether you did or didn't, don't answer that here. PM me.

Below is the usual list of records that may exist for FOI request. I would point out that the magic appearance of more police cars after the encounter began practically guarantees the existence of radio traffic recordings and/or in-car text messages.


Names of first officers.
Names of late-arriving officers.
Radio traffic recordings
In-car text system messages--from each car involved.
Dash cam and officer body-mic recordings--from both officers at his car.
Field contact report notes--the report cops write after an encounter.
Written departmental policies regarding contacting OCers if OCers are expressly mentioned.

Two officers, at least one with a hand on his firearm IS a detention. Try meeting Officer Friendly with a hand on yours and see if he thinks it's just a "friendly little voluntary chat about the weather."

The detention occurred on private property, I suspect traffic ordinances in most states apply only to vehicles being driven on public roads and highways.

As the vehicle was stationary, I doubt there could be any suspicion of a traffic ordinance being violated, so there was no cause to either ask for or demand a driving license.

Seeing a driving license or any other identification without at Least a suspicion of some sort of criminal activity is VERY unlikely to prove anyone's innocence. Officer Friendly wants to see who he's dealing with so he can find out if the person being field interviewed is wanted for any crimes.

He's looking to do his job
He's looking for a criminal to arrest
He's looking at you

Thanks Citizen, I have filled in your questions,

Some questions that will help clarify:

1. What time of day did the police encouter start? Got a time-stamped receipt from the coffee shop or something? (Oh, your text messages will give the time.)
Monday - 2:45-325pm (Initial arrival, to termination of encounter) (Edited to reflect text messages.)

2. When the officer asked for ID, was the tone of voice a demand or request?
Actually she was quite friendly and came across flirtatious, but with a hint of suspicion underneath.

3. Did the officer actually phrase it as ID, or did the office say drivers license? Can you recall which exact words?
iirc started with Hello there, I noticed you walking back from the storefronts with a weapon on your side and can I see some ID please.

4. How long did the encounter itself last?

The encounter lasted maybe 2 and half songs, so maybe like 7-8 minutes? rather quick, I think its because I gave ID rather quick.

5. Was there any other discussion with the cop besides what you gave already. If yes, please amend your report so we can see it all in one place. In fact, it might be easier to answer all these questions by amending your report. Then all the info will be in one place. Just copy your report from my OP here and post it as a reply to the thread titled Amended Report.

No prior conversation, all conversation was mentioned here.

6. Did anything at all happen on the way into the coffee shop, or while in the coffee shop that could give legitimate concern to another citizen or the shop employees to call the cops? Anything at all? Even if misinterpreted?

Not that I can tell off hand, while in starbucks no one noticed firearm that I could tell, they had a huge line so most people were in a hustle to get drink and leave. Maybe when I got out of car initially it sparked her curiuosity?

7. Did you make a voice-recording? Whether you did or didn't, don't answer that here. PM me.

moriar said:

Thanks Citizen, I have filled in your questions,

Some questions that will help clarify:

1. What time of day did the police encouter start? Got a time-stamped receipt from the coffee shop or something? (Oh, your text messages will give the time.)
Monday - 2:45-325pm (Initial arrival, to termination of encounter) (Edited to reflect text messages.)

.

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What time did the encounter start? When did the police knock on your window, as close as you can determine?

Citizen said:

What time did the encounter start? When did the police knock on your window, as close as you can determine?

Click to expand...

Initial contact puts it around 305-310 as my starbucks receipt says 250 which would put it about the right time for waiting for my pumpkin white mocha to be made. ( yes fru fru coffee )

2. When the officer asked for ID, was the tone of voice a demand or request?
Actually she was quite friendly and came across flirtatious, but with a hint of suspicion underneath.
OK, so there was no identity demand.

3. Did the officer actually phrase it as ID, or did the office say drivers license? Can you recall which exact words?

iirc started with Hello there, I noticed you walking back from the storefronts with a weapon on your side and can I see some ID please.
OK, so this was not a traffic stop. It was a Terry Stop that just happened to occur while seated in a car.

4. How long did the encounter itself last?
The encounter lasted maybe 2 and half songs, so maybe like 7-8 minutes? rather quick, I think its because I gave ID rather quick.
OK, kinda short. I'll ask a couple more questions in the next post.

I got the rest of the answers too, thanks.

Were there any police comments about keeping your hands where they could see them?

Any requests or demands to seize the gun for officer safety?

Citizen said:

2. When the officer asked for ID, was the tone of voice a demand or request?
Actually she was quite friendly and came across flirtatious, but with a hint of suspicion underneath.
OK, so there was no identity demand.

3. Did the officer actually phrase it as ID, or did the office say drivers license? Can you recall which exact words?

iirc started with Hello there, I noticed you walking back from the storefronts with a weapon on your side and can I see some ID please.
OK, so this was not a traffic stop. It was a Terry Stop that just happened to occur while seated in a car.

4. How long did the encounter itself last?
The encounter lasted maybe 2 and half songs, so maybe like 7-8 minutes? rather quick, I think its because I gave ID rather quick.
OK, kinda short. I'll ask a couple more questions in the next post.

I got the rest of the answers too, thanks.

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I definitely would put the encounter a 8/10 for respect as person to me in which i was spoken to, however my issue was not with the female officer as she i dont know what to call it, but "talked / id'd me". The issue was with the male officer with hand on holstered weapon as I was a bit scared to make a movement and he might have over reacted out of "officer safety".

Citizen said:

Were there any police comments about keeping your hands where they could see them?

Any requests or demands to seize the gun for officer safety?

Click to expand...

No requests from the police to keep my hands where they could see them, I pretty much always have my ID / CHP / Insurance card in my lanyard around my neck since it has my fed id card aswell with it. so i kept my hands on the steering wheel cept for initial roll down of window.


No request for seizure of weapon for officer safety was made.

Citizen said:

One possible way to address it is with a FOIA avalanche.
...
A FOIA avalanche would use the statutory requirement to comply and, if it exists in a police department, the unwillingness to not follow the rules.

Click to expand...

There's the rub.
I've even had a city attorney get in on the illegal action, denying a FOIA request unless I signed a promise not to sue them.
The judge agreed that they shouldn't have done that.
Not only did they have to give the information to me (my attorney) free, they had to pay his fees & a (small) fine to me.

MKEgal said:

There's the rub.
I've even had a city attorney get in on the illegal action, denying a FOIA request unless I signed a promise not to sue them.
The judge agreed that they shouldn't have done that.
Not only did they have to give the information to me (my attorney) free, they had to pay his fees & a (small) fine to me.

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Well, yes. They can do whatever. Two things you have to keep in mind.

One, just because they do nothing, or circle the wagons, doesn't mean they don't get the point. The cops involved in the Tony's incident denied every OCer allegation about what happened at the restaurant. However, not one OCer has been harassed in that burg since then.

Two, lets say the OCer in today's situation decided to accept our offer of a FOIA avalanche, even if the cops decide to refuse illegally every one, some sergeant who receives these things is gonna say, "Cap'n, I been getting a ton of these things. Can you pass the word that I've got better things to do." And, if there are a bunch of illegal refusals, it just gives the pro-FOIA groups more evidence to take to the General Assembly to put some teeth into the FOIA law.

Are you required to have a driver's license while in control of a motor vehicle on private property in Virginia?

Citizen said:

Well, yes. They can do whatever. Two things you have to keep in mind.

One, just because they do nothing, or circle the wagons, doesn't mean they don't get the point. The cops involved in the Tony's incident denied every OCer allegation about what happened at the restaurant. However, not one OCer has been harassed in that burg since then.

Two, lets say the OCer in today's situation decided to accept our offer of a FOIA avalanche, even if the cops decide to refuse illegally every one, some sergeant who receives these things is gonna say, "Cap'n, I been getting a ton of these things. Can you pass the word that I've got better things to do." And, if there are a bunch of illegal refusals, it just gives the pro-FOIA groups more evidence to take to the General Assembly to put some teeth into the FOIA law.

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Pitchforks unite, unleash the foia

Just a slightly related thought here, it is now illegal to send text messages while driving in Virginia. If you are sitting in a stopped vehicle, actively using your phone, that would seem to be the first reply... "Certainly officer, you are aware I cannot text while driving... I am texting, therefore I am not driving."

TFred

The OCer Accepts the Offer for a FOIA Barrage

moriar said:

Pitchforks unite, unleash the foia

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OK, folks. He's willing for us to undertake a FOI barrage.

Here's a link to a sample FOI request. It also has helpful hints learned the hard way over time. I would like to stress that you definitely want to put a limiter on the cost you want to pay when it comes to Fairfax County PD.

I was thinking we would need to coordinate by PM who is going to ask for which records, but the more I think about it, the less I think that is needed. I would recommend just PMing Moriar to let him know what you are requesting so he can keep up with which records are not being requested and can request them himself. He can tell us how many requesters are participating.

I suggest waiting until next Monday to send mail the FOI requests. This gives enough time for various members to get on board, get their FOIs written, and poised for mailing.

Here again is the list of possible records:

Names of first officers.
Names of late-arriving officers.
Radio traffic recordings
In-car text system messages--from each car involved. (four possible sets of records)
Dash cam and officer body-mic recordings--from both officers at his car.
Field contact report notes--the report cops write after an encounter.
Written departmental policies regarding contacting OCers if OCers are expressly mentioned. (You're going to have to word this one carefully to exclude getting twenty pages of policy on dealing with armed suspects when all you are looking for is good-guy OCers).

Citizen said:

3. Did the officer actually phrase it as ID, or did the office say drivers license? Can you recall which exact words?

iirc started with Hello there, I noticed you walking back from the storefronts with a weapon on your side and can I see some ID please.
OK, so this was not a traffic stop. It was a Terry Stop that just happened to occur while seated in a car.

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Please explain what crime the cop has RAS was about to be committed, was being committing or had been committed.

As you do note, the stop/detention/arrest took place while the individual was seated in the car. It is very probable that this happened in order to give some tactical advantage to the cops - easier to surround him when he's in the car, restricts his ability to see where all the otgher cops are, being seated in the car restrictes his mobility and makes drawing a bit more difficult than if standing out in the open. As opposed to believing it just took them so long to walk on over.

stay safe.

I wasn't going to post about this and didn't last night since the Mexicans gave me a sugar reading a little over 400:uhoh:...but since the thread isn't going away and I haven't upset the ChiPpers, Novites or girlie cops in Farifax for at least 48 hours, I'm going to speak my mind.

First, I don't understand why any are surprised at this. The Fairfax PD isn't worth a damn, never has been and probably never will be. For the Newbies, do a search for "Novacop" who is a Fairfax Cop and just as an interesting point, is also from North Carolina. That should tell all you need to know about the Fairfax PD.

We've sung their praise as having cleaned up their act. Bull Ship! There are two memorable quotes about the Surry Incident. One Cop from James City PD said, "If it had happened on this side of the river, it wouldn't have happened".

Another reputable source said "If it had happened in Fairfax he'd have been convicted because they're good at drumming up charges".

So the truth is, Fairfax hasn't become more law abiding, they've just become better predators.

I see very little reason to complain about a skunk for smelling bad!

Now to the rest of this. Since the OP is from North Carolina I'll cut him some slack. There isn't anything wrong with showing ID if he wants to, It doesn't hurt anyone but him and probably didn't hurt anyway. That's a personal decision everyone has to make from time to time.

What does gall me is that he was OCing...which is fine and dandy, but when he was asked for ID, he also gave the Cop his CHP. WHY?

Again, I don't have a dog in this fight and if he wants to play dressup up north, no skin off of my nose except he came here to complain about it.