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Thread: Occupy back in the news

  1. #1
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    Occupy back in the news

    I see they are making the news again.

    http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/11/...elief-efforts/

  2. #2
    Regular Member Gil223's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beebobby View Post
    I see they are making the news again.

    http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/11/...elief-efforts/
    These are the type of people who will "nudge" us toward revolution. The government is just waiting for an opportunity to declare martial law, and will ignore those who facilitate that end. Pax...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gil223 View Post
    These are the type of people who will "nudge" us toward revolution. The government is just waiting for an opportunity to declare martial law, and will ignore those who facilitate that end. Pax...
    Oh, I don't know if they're "just waiting"--they'd have to be sure of the martial's willingness so to speak. They won't mind using these people for as much mileage as they can get, though.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Verrrry interestink, indeed!

    A group uses the name and techniquers of last year's social kerfuffle to organize and carry out a charitable act and the first comment is how the .gov will use them and their activity to further statist goals of absolute control, and the second comment suggests that the .mil will be wanting some buy-in before it carries out the [controversial] orders of its masters. Not a word in reaction/response to the actual behaviors reported.

    Makes me think there must have been a sale on tin foil.

    stay safe.
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  5. #5
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Neh!

    Anybody showing a direct connection to OC or RKBA? Maybe more fitting in the Social Lounge.

    Meanwhile better make that "head foil" heavy duty, quilted and suitable for grilling.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  6. #6
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Neh!

    Anybody showing a direct connection to OC or RKBA? Maybe more fitting in the Social Lounge.

    Meanwhile better make that "head foil" heavy duty, quilted and suitable for grilling.
    In NYC? Really? I have a higher regard for you powers of observation.

    Occupy is yesterday's news now that Barry is firmly ensconced as Santa Clause for the next four years.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  7. #7
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    In NYC? Really? I have a higher regard for you powers of observation.

    Occupy is yesterday's news now that Barry is firmly ensconced as Santa Clause Cause for the next four years.
    Fixed it for you.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  8. #8
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Fixed it for you.
    I guess FIFY is not "illegal" after all.

    Though.....


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    PM coming your way.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  9. #9
    Regular Member Gil223's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Oh, I don't know if they're "just waiting"--they'd have to be sure of the martial's willingness so to speak. They won't mind using these people for as much mileage as they can get, though.
    "Willingness" is not necessary when ignorance is present. There was an incident where a U.S. Army officer - Major George S. Patton - under orders from General Douglas MacArthur (by direction of President Herbert Hoover) led a cavalry charge against 15,000 American veterans - and their families - who were "petitioning" (by their peaceful physical presence in Washington D.C.) the government for that which they were promised (Google "Bonus Army"). From the enlisted Oath of Enlistment...
    ...support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me...
    The "true faith and allegiance" clause refers to the precedent "Constitution" - that is the "same" mentioned. This is a relationship which many do not fully comprehend. The issue is further clouded by the "obey the orders of" clause, which, in the OoE, does not specify lawful orders. To get to the lawful requirement necessitates reading and comprehending Article 92 of the UCMJ (which is also codified under 10 USC § 892 - Art. 92. Failure to obey order or regulation)...
    Any person subject to this chapter who—
    (1) violates or fails to obey any lawful general order or regulation;
    (2) having knowledge of any other lawful order issued by a member of the armed forces, which it is his duty to obey, fails to obey the order; or
    (3) is derelict in the performance of his duties;
    shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.
    Most military personnel remember the "fails to obey" and "order or regulation", and the "punishment" clauses because those parts were emphasized during the induction ceremony and in BMT. (As I recall, very little else regarding the UCMJ was addressed during basic training a half-century ago - Article 31 [informally known as "the Catch-All Article" - "we can punish you for damn-near anything"] and Article 92 ["OBEY... or suffer the consequences"] received the most attention.)
    Most of our military members are not well-schooled in law, but they do understand, and are easily intimidated by, the threat of being "punished as a court-martial may direct". Does the issuance of any order by the CinC make it lawful? And, does refusal to obey such an edict lawfully carry the penalty of court-martial? I believe that most people won't take the time to sort this out - they will simply ask, "How high?" when ordered to jump. A similar knee-jerk reaction, in that respect, to the unquestioning compliance of most folks with orders from LEOs. There is - in both instances - an implied (or inferred, or both) punishment for failure to do so. Such concerns are not always without basis, and compliance with the demands of "authority" is easier for most people than is confrontation, under the assumption that the punishment - if any - would be significantly less if they were cooperative. Just my thoughts on that.

    IMHO, many of the members of the Occupy Movement are what I call "cause and confrontation junkies". These people live for confrontation in support of almost any cause. They thrive on the adrenaline rush, and probably develop withdrawal symptoms when it is not available. These are the personality types that will instigate angry, perhaps violent, responses - and therewith supply impetus needed for - the "justification" for the imposition of martial law.
    Pax...
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gil223 View Post
    "Willingness" is not necessary when ignorance is present. There was an incident where a U.S. Army officer - Major George S. Patton - under orders from General Douglas MacArthur (by direction of President Herbert Hoover) led a cavalry charge against 15,000 American veterans - and their families - who were "petitioning" (by their peaceful physical presence in Washington D.C.) the government for that which they were promised (Google "Bonus Army"). From the enlisted Oath of Enlistment...
    I guess I don't equate martial law to riot control or evicting peaceable protestors from the Bonus Army camp.

    And, I don't know that I agree that men like McArthur would necessarily go along with subjecting entire regions to martial law to suppress a riot in a particular spot in a region. Riot suppression is one thing, martial law is something else. Such a general, even if inclined to move forward with martial law, has to include in his calculations what happens to his career when martial law is lifted. Martial law for a disaster area like Katrina is one thing; martial law for a region without a natural disaster, to quell a bit of rioting is a whole different kettle of fish. After martial law is lifted, he's gonna have some explaining to do.


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    Last edited by Citizen; 11-15-2012 at 09:20 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Gil223's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    After martial law is lifted, he's gonna have some explaining to do.


    Sent from a plain ol' desktop PC with a cheap keyboard while enjoying a little whiskey.
    Unfortunately, when martial law is imposed, it does not come with an expiration date - it can be maintained indefinitely. Pax...
    MOLON LABE
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    Glocks ROCK!

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gil223 View Post
    Unfortunately, when martial law is imposed, it does not come with an expiration date - it can be maintained indefinitely. Pax...
    I kinda thought that's what you might be talking about. I don't think we're there yet--a point where enough of the military thinks things are so far south that they will establish martial law without the expectation of having to answer for excesses when it is lifted.

    Another angle on this is that if such martial law is established, we're back to the period between the Roman republic and imperial Rome. That is to say, the military itself will be the most powerful simply because they have the guns. At which point, there will be no reason for the military to remain subordinate to the civil power. Kinda like early the movie Cleopatra where Julius Caesar, (Rex Harrison), tells a general to forward to Marc Antony (Richard Burton) the instruction that he is to not disband his legions when he returns to Rome. "They make the law legal." And, not unlike the real Marc Antony and Octavian, "to hell with the senate. We've got the troops, we'll do almost anything what we want."

    If things get so far out of hand that the military no longer has to worry about being held answerable when martial law is lifted, then neither will the military have to remain under the civil power.

    I think we've got a little ways to go before we get there. Not time-wise necessarily, but desperation-wise.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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