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Thread: Thoughts on crossdraw?

  1. #1
    Regular Member MikeTheGreek's Avatar
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    Question Thoughts on crossdraw?

    I'm a mechanic, so I spend a huge part of my day sitting in cars, and driving cars. I carry a CZ75B, and since it's a big gun, my iTac holster digs into my side when I sit down. I was thinking that most likely, crossdraw would fix my problem, since the left side of the car usually has much more room. Has anybody tried this?

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    I don't ever see anybody carrying crossdraw so I don't know if there's some sort of danger from doing it, or what.
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    Regular Member griffin's Avatar
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    Have you even tried wearing your holster cross-draw? Can you even release it? I see a huge problem.

    I wear a full-sized gun and have no problems in a Corvette, so I'm not sure what problems you have, but I would rethink this unless you want to go LH. It's easy to test.
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    Regular Member MikeTheGreek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by griffin View Post
    Have you even tried wearing your holster cross-draw? Can you even release it? I see a huge problem.

    I wear a full-sized gun and have no problems in a Corvette, so I'm not sure what problems you have, but I would rethink this unless you want to go LH. It's easy to test.
    My left arm is kinda messed up so carrying LH isn't smart for me. I put it on my belt crossdraw today and have no problem with the release button. I can actually release it faster and smoother crossdraw.

    I'll probably test it at work and see how it goes. I was just wondering if there were any safety issues from carrying crossdraw, since I've never seen anyone do it.
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    Re: Thoughts on crossdraw?

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeTheGreek View Post
    I was just wondering if there were any safety issues from carrying crossdraw, since I've never seen anyone do it.
    Muzzle sweeping everyone to your left as you draw.

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    Regular Member MikeTheGreek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPOProds View Post
    Muzzle sweeping everyone to your left as you draw.
    The first time I drew it was like that, but the rest of the time I pretty much did this

    http://www.gunweek.com/2005/pix0101arc/10-13.jpg

    ^ I figured that sweeping to my left probably wasn't a very good idea.
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    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    The only way I've ever carried. Never had any issues. It's all in what you train yourself to access/handle your draw.
    I find cross draw the best in many ways but you may get a whole can of worms for answers on this one.

    FYI: research and you will find that most of the noted gun fighters were cross draw users.

    JMO...
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    Regular Member MikeTheGreek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WARCHILD View Post
    The only way I've ever carried. Never had any issues. It's all in what you train yourself to access/handle your draw.
    I find cross draw the best in many ways but you may get a whole can of worms for answers on this one.

    FYI: research and you will find that most of the noted gun fighters were cross draw users.

    JMO...
    I didn't even notice the gun at first, I was too focused on the awesome mustache.

    I'm going to carry cross for a few days and see how it goes.
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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    I'm a mechanic too, but don't OC at work because the boss won't let me. Further, I'd be afraid of damaging peoples cars.

    So my work carry method is un chambered AIWB carry with no holster. My gun stays well concealed, is prevented from bumping up or scratching against cars, and when I sit down the slide just sits comfortably between my legs. My Glock 20 is probably about as big as your CZ, and I have no problems with this method.

    Were I to OC while fixing cars, I actually don't know how I'd do it.
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    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeTheGreek View Post
    I didn't even notice the gun at first, I was too focused on the awesome mustache.

    I'm going to carry cross for a few days and see how it goes.
    Thanks on the stache and no I'm not going for the hulk look. (at you Brian)

    Don't be offended but don't try it for a few days. Practice it in a safe environment (home). Never try anything new in any area where you may be put in a defensive position.
    You want your reactions to be without guessing and be automatic. If you decide to carry cross draw, then..practice, practice..you know the routine.
    You have re-train you muscle memory and reaction to the new carry position.

    As for the muzzle sweep; I don't have that as an issue. I always put my left side to the threat and draw to it. I use a side stance in lieu of the weaver and others that many use.

    JMO

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    Regular Member MikeTheGreek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    I'm a mechanic too, but don't OC at work because the boss won't let me. Further, I'd be afraid of damaging peoples cars.

    So my work carry method is un chambered AIWB carry with no holster. My gun stays well concealed, is prevented from bumping up or scratching against cars, and when I sit down the slide just sits comfortably between my legs. My Glock 20 is probably about as big as your CZ, and I have no problems with this method.

    Were I to OC while fixing cars, I actually don't know how I'd do it.
    Trust me, been there, scratched a car my first day carrying, got yelled at for a few hours and trained myself to always know exactly how far my hip is from the paint. Haven't done it since.
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    Regular Member MikeTheGreek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WARCHILD View Post
    Thanks on the stache and no I'm not going for the hulk look. (at you Brian)

    Don't be offended but don't try it for a few days. Practice it in a safe environment (home). Never try anything new in any area where you may be put in a defensive position.
    You want your reactions to be without guessing and be automatic. If you decide to carry cross draw, then..practice, practice..you know the routine.
    You have re-train you muscle memory and reaction to the new carry position.

    As for the muzzle sweep; I don't have that as an issue. I always put my left side to the threat and draw to it. I use a side stance in lieu of the weaver and others that many use.

    JMO
    I'll do that. I'll spend the weekend walking around crossdraw and then go back to work monday and try it out.
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    Regular Member griffin's Avatar
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    I can't see myself being able to comfortably press the holster release crossdraw, but if it works for you, try it. And I just figured Wildchild was trying to imitate Paul Teutel Sr., not Hulk Hogan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by griffin View Post
    I can't see myself being able to comfortably press the holster release crossdraw, but if it works for you, try it. And I just figured Wildchild was trying to imitate Paul Teutel Sr., not Hulk Hogan.

    The only downside I can think of is maybe attracting a little more attention while I'm out. I live in Northville...so my mohawk (short, but still clearly a mohawk) & tattoos get me enough attention as it is. I can only imagine how many times I'm going to get the cops called on me now.
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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Fyi

    Mike be very, very, careful about mixing OC & cars until you get your MI CPL .

    Be advised that (some) police in MI (Metro Detroit) watch this board like hawks waiting for any scrap of info to try and jam up OCers. I know your employer allows you to carry, but should you be asked to run for a part, or even move a car into the street to free up parking/garage space always remember to disarm.

    Before I had my CPL in MI I would carry 3 mags two in a mag holster and one in a pocket. When I got out of the car, I always made sure to take the pistol case completely out of the vehicle. Place it on the ground or other area not touching the car/truck/van etc. Then load the pocket mag making sure to keep safety in mind. Reverse process on departure and be sure to eject the chambered round.
    This is dance is necessary, as the law has been twisted by the prosecutors/courts in MI so badly, that LE considers the bumper/tailgate/trunk/hood or roof of your vehicle, as the same as you being inside it with a pistol - hence concealing your pistol, should you have possession of it in a non transport mode (out of case) while in contact with your vehicle.

    Be careful and please study, study & study some more before you end up in trouble. Myself, Bikenut,Venator, Michigander, DrTodd, Autosurgeon, etc.. (too many good guys here to list) are all good guys and will try to help you get started; just send a PM and most of the time you will get a prompt answer from us.

    On topic I have carried cross draw. If you stay with this style of carry make sure to train drawing with your weak hand too. This goes for any style, but drawing off hand in a crossdraw setup requires a slightly different wrist motion.
    Last edited by FreeInAZ; 11-16-2012 at 12:53 AM. Reason: ETA
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    Regular Member MikeTheGreek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    Mike be very, very, careful about mixing OC & cars until you get your MI CPL .

    Be advised that (some) police in MI (Metro Detroit) watch this board like hawks waiting for any scrap of info to try and jam up OCers. I know your employer allows you to carry, but should you be asked to run for a part, or even move a car into the street to free up parking/garage space always remember to disarm.

    Before I had my CPL in MI I would carry 3 mags two in a mag holster and one in a pocket. When I got out of the car, I always made sure to take the pistol case completely out of the vehicle. Place it on the ground or other area not touching the car/truck/van etc. Then load the pocket mag making sure to keep safety in mind. Reverse process on departure and be sure to eject the chambered round.
    This is dance is necessary, as the law has been twisted by the prosecutors/courts in MI so badly, that LE considers the bumper/tailgate/trunk/hood or roof of your vehicle, as the same as you being inside it with a pistol - hence concealing your pistol, should you have possession of it in a non transport mode (out of case) while in contact with your vehicle.

    Be careful and please study, study & study some more before you end up in trouble. Myself, Bikenut,Venator, Michigander, DrTodd, Autosurgeon, etc.. (too many good guys here to list) are all good guys and will try to help you get started; just send a PM and most of the time you will get a prompt answer from us.

    On topic I have carried cross draw. If you stay with this style of carry make sure to train drawing with your weak hand too. This goes for any style, but drawing off hand in a crossdraw setup requires a slightly different wrist motion.
    I only carry in a car on the private property, anytime I have to leave our private parking lot I put my weapon in the toolbox until I'm back.

    Theres a detective that comes to my shop all the time and when I didn't know much about open carry a long time ago he told me that was perfectly legal and just to make sure I don't leave our property with it.

    I'm not looking to get arrested anytime soon
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    Well it depends

    I personally wear cross draw on occassion, due to my state's laws I can only carry while meeting certain exemptions, so I haven't carried in my state, I have carried in Montana all the time when vacationing there, When I was doing a hike in the woods I carried cross draw so I could carry the bear spray strong side (more worried about bears and bear mace is better for them) When driving into town or through ranchland or whatever in Montana where bears weren't as much of an issue I carried no bear spray and put the revolver on strong side. I've don't have problems in cars with a pistol on but then again I'm left handed and never carry a gun outside the house anyway.

    Yes a gun is more much comfortable on the left side of your body while in the driver's seat. much more comfortable.
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    Lightbulb

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeTheGreek View Post
    I only carry in a car on the private property, anytime I have to leave our private parking lot I put my weapon in the toolbox until I'm back.

    Theres a detective that comes to my shop all the time and when I didn't know much about open carry a long time ago he told me that was perfectly legal and just to make sure I don't leave our property with it.

    I'm not looking to get arrested anytime soon
    Good to hear, make sure you are using a container designed to transport pistols. This is another cheap trick some LE use to jam up Non CPL carriers in MI. If you have doubts about what I'm saying look up Ben Wallace Felony firearms case. Part of the charges came from transporting illegally (in a back pack).
    Last edited by FreeInAZ; 11-16-2012 at 01:05 AM.
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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeTheGreek View Post
    I only carry in a car on the private property, anytime I have to leave our private parking lot I put my weapon in the toolbox until I'm back.

    Theres a detective that comes to my shop all the time and when I didn't know much about open carry a long time ago he told me that was perfectly legal and just to make sure I don't leave our property with it.

    I'm not looking to get arrested anytime soon
    Not trying to bust your balls here but if the bolded is true you need to study more and STOP GETTING INTO CARS WITH YOUR GUN ON!

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(jyl...20AND%20pistol
    (2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.
    And before you ask the "place of business" is not wherever you work, you must own the business. And no, neither the owner of the business nor the car can give you permission to carry it in the car if you don't have a CPL.

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(ggo...ghlight=pistol

    (1) Subsection (2) of section 227 does not apply to any of the following:

    (a) To a person holding a valid license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by his or her state of residence except where the pistol is carried in nonconformance with a restriction appearing on the license.
    In order to have it in a car you MUST have a CPL from your state of residence. That cop was either misinformed or lying to you, and thus the lesson for the day...never, EVER take a police officer's opinion of the law as the actual law.

    Bronson
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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    Thanks Bronson,

    I was digging for the cites before you posted. Mike you need to be careful and take sometime to learn more. MI laws are CRAZY. Learning all the quirky laws can drive you crazy too. Better to be FREE and crazy than, locked up and crazy because you didn't know the law.

    Again no one here is trying to bust your balls, we just want you to get started safely. Venator has a radio show that you can call into with questions. I suggest you do so. I think the next show is on the 17th? See the sticky near the top of the main page it has the contact info. I call in all the time, just to razz the Q usually

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    Last edited by FreeInAZ; 11-16-2012 at 01:51 AM. Reason: SAS
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    Regular Member MikeTheGreek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    Good to hear, make sure you are using a container designed to transport pistols. This is another cheap trick some LE use to jam up Non CPL carriers in MI. If you have doubts about what I'm saying look up Ben Wallace Felony firearms case. Part of the charges came from transporting illegally (in a back pack).
    Unloaded, in the trunk, in the orig CZ cast I got with the firearm and the mags in the front seat with me. I also have an old S&W plastic case with a lock hole on it in case I need some extra security.




    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    Not trying to bust your balls here but if the bolded is true you need to study more and STOP GETTING INTO CARS WITH YOUR GUN ON!

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(jyl...20AND%20pistol

    And before you ask the "place of business" is not wherever you work, you must own the business. And no, neither the owner of the business nor the car can give you permission to carry it in the car if you don't have a CPL.

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(ggo...ghlight=pistol



    In order to have it in a car you MUST have a CPL from your state of residence. That cop was either misinformed or lying to you, and thus the lesson for the day...never, EVER take a police officer's opinion of the law as the actual law.

    Bronson

    So either the cop was an idiot, or Detroit PD really doesn't care about private property. Either way, I'm going to have the other guys move the cars It's too time consuming to go to my toolbox every 10 minutes, and theres no way in hell I'm not carrying my gun at work!
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeTheGreek View Post
    I'm a mechanic, so I spend a huge part of my day sitting in cars, and driving cars. I carry a CZ75B, and since it's a big gun, my iTac holster digs into my side when I sit down. I was thinking that most likely, crossdraw would fix my problem, since the left side of the car usually has much more room. Has anybody tried this?

    I don't ever see anybody carrying crossdraw so I don't know if there's some sort of danger from doing it, or what.
    There was fella who was real respected in the gun world back in the day. He was a Border Patrol agent and supervisor from, say, the 1940's through the 1960's.. And, a demonstration speed shooter. His name was Bill Jordan.

    In his book, No Second Place Winners, among a lot of other stuff, he recommended against cross-draw. He pointed out, and even used photos, that cross-draw puts your gun butt forward towards an antagonist, making a gun-grab that much easier.

    While one might say, "Oh, I'm not a cop so I won't have to worry about that," also consider the situation where an unarmed antagonist escalates a simple argument, and then suddenly decides to pull a gun on you---yours.

    I vaguely recall Jordan saying that easy gun-grabs was the reason some police departments made policies against cross-draw.


    For anybody interested, I think the book is still available and in print. Maybe available through GunLaws.com or Paladin Press or something like that. Great book. Its not full of self-defense ninja stuff. Just old time common sense stuff that you sometimes wouldn't have thought about. Some very interesting. For example, he recommended for new guys to avoid the habit of resting their hand on the their holster. Said it stretches the holster. When you go to draw, the gun doesn't come out of the holster--holster and gun come upward together. Of course, this was back in the day of revolver holsters that hung down a ways from the belt. Not really applicable with today's OWB holsters that carry the cylinder or chamber at or above the belt line. But, interesting nonetheless, to see what the old timers had learned.
    Last edited by Citizen; 11-16-2012 at 01:50 AM.
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    Regular Member MikeTheGreek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    There was fella who was real respected in the gun world back in the day. He was a Border Patrol agent and supervisor from, say, the 1940's through the 1960's.. And, a demonstration speed shooter. His name was Bill Jordan.

    In his book, No Second Place Winners, among a lot of other stuff, he recommended against cross-draw. He pointed out, and even used photos, that cross-draw puts your gun butt forward towards an antagonist, making a gun-grab that much easier.

    While one might say, "Oh, I'm not a cop so I won't have to worry about that," also consider the situation where an unarmed antagonist escalates a simple argument, and then suddenly decides to pull a gun on you---yours.

    I vaguely recall Jordan saying that easy gun-grabs was the reason some police departments made policies against cross-draw.


    For anybody interested, I think the book is still available and in print. Maybe available through GunLaws.com or Paladin Press or something like that. Great book. Its not full of self-defense ninja stuff. Just old time common sense stuff that you sometimes wouldn't have thought about. Some very interesting. For example, he recommended for new guys to avoid the habit of resting their hand on the their holster. Said it stretches the holster. When you go to draw, the gun doesn't come out of the holster--holster and gun come upward together. Of course, this was back in the day of revolver holsters that hung down a ways from the belt. Not really applicable with today's OWB holsters that carry the cylinder or chamber at or above the belt line. But, interesting nonetheless, to see what the old timers had learned.
    I'd unload my gun and pay money to anyone who can get past me, press the button on my holster and take my gun away. You'd have to be insanely calm, focused, and smooth to do that, which would require some serious training. Now..I don't plan on getting into a fight with Steven Seagal, so I'm not insanely worried.

    + If somebody can take it out of my crossdraw, they could just as easily come up behind me if I was carrying it normally and take it. Now I can see them coming.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeTheGreek View Post
    I'd unload my gun and pay money to anyone who can get past me, press the button on my holster and take my gun away. You'd have to be insanely calm, focused, and smooth to do that, which would require some serious training. Now..I don't plan on getting into a fight with Steven Seagal, so I'm not insanely worried.

    + If somebody can take it out of my crossdraw, they could just as easily come up behind me if I was carrying it normally and take it. Now I can see them coming.
    OK. If its not a problem for your exact circumstances, its not a problem. As the OCDO motto goes, Carry On!
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  24. #24
    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeTheGreek View Post
    SNIP...

    + If somebody can take it out of my crossdraw, they could just as easily come up behind me if I was carrying it normally and take it. Now I can see them coming.
    This is why retention (not just holsters, but arm/hand placement) is important combined with situational awareness. Many of us OCers carry two or more pistols. Just in case of a grab attempt. It can be done well even without a CPL.
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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Lightbulb

    Mike - one last thing.

    DO NOT CARRY A POCKET KNIFE when you OC.

    Police have used the sight of a bulged pocket (knife) as an excuse to detain and arrest an otherwise legal OCer in MI. Why? Because knives are not covered under preemption and many cities still have laws against carrying them on the books in MI. If you must carry a knife, carry it in a case on your belt where it is in plain sight, to minimize the concealed dangerous weapon bunk.
    Last edited by FreeInAZ; 11-16-2012 at 02:23 AM.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "You must be the change you wish to see in the world" by Mahatma Gandhi

    “Your beliefs become your thoughts. Your thoughts become your words. Your words become your actions. Your actions become your habits. Your habits become your values. Your values become your destiny.” by Mahatma Gandhi

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