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Thread: Mass Shooting Intervention

  1. #1
    Regular Member Sharpender's Avatar
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    Mass Shooting Intervention

    I just finished reading "10 Lessons for Armed Citizens from the Aurora Theater Mass Murder" at http://www.activeresponsetraining.ne...armed-citizens.

    It got me wondering if anyone here has changed the weapon they carry in light of the mass shootings in Colorado, Texas, Wisconsin, etc.. Have you changed to a full-size from a compact, or maybe started carrying something with a higher capacity mag? Do you carry more mags with mass shootings in mind? Do you practice long range precision shooting with your usual OC/CC weapon? I OC/CC a P89, but I have not done much long range shooting. I typically carry one additional mag, but should probably up that with a second. I'm really just curious about any changes you have made specifically due to these types of situations.

    Another question for those of you that have kids... How do you talk to them about what to do if something like this happens without scaring the sh!t out of them? I have a 13 year old daughter and we have discussed school shootings, home invasions, attempted kidnappings, etc... and I'm afraid she's going to go agoraphobic on me if I through something else at her.

    Thanks!

    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the outcome of the vote." - Benjamin Franklin

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    I am not a cop and am only a sheepdog for my herd - not the world in general. But as that sheepdog it is my job to get my herd away from danger, not to abandon my herd to confront the danger. That step happens when evasion and escape have utterly failed (which of course means they must have been attempted before being declared a failure).

    When things go south the basic steps are 1) get the herd to cover, 2) figure out what is going on and where it is going on, 3) figure out how to put distance and time between the herd and trouble without exposing the herd to more danger, and 4) execute. Nowhere in that plan do you see drawing or shooting. Those steps are part of Plan B, for when Plan A has failed.

    As for
    Another question for those of you that have kids... How do you talk to them about what to do if something like this happens without scaring the sh!t out of them? I have a 13 year old daughter and we have discussed school shootings, home invasions, attempted kidnappings, etc... and I'm afraid she's going to go agoraphobic on me if I through something else at her
    I offer the suggestion that you and your daughter assess the probability of those situations rather than the possibility. Even with the most probably one a healthy dose of "Don't go stupid places with stupid people to do stupid things" goes a long way towards reducing the probability - listening to the gossip and watching how the crowd flows (especially away from certain kids), making your home uninviting to invaders both physically and by your behavior, situationa awareness along with the "no headphones/earbuds, no talking on the cellphone while walking/driving" rule.

    Depending on how mature she is you could consider making your daughter an active part of the defense plan instead of just another lamb to be herded. Pointing out situations and persons and asking her to tell you if they are (to use the infamous situational awareness color code) green, yellow or red. Asking her what she would do if "X" happened, or even how to decide it was time to be elsewhere before "X" happened. If she's not up for that yet, your daughter might be calmed down/less paranoid if she just had a basic set of steps to follow when Daddy declared that life had just gone all pear-shaped - which side of you to be on when she gets behind you, how flat on the ground she is to be when you yell for her to "Get down", and that she should grab your belt as opposed to your hand when you are running away.*

    For kids who are not staring down the barrel of a gun, school shooting responses of "getting the heck out of dodge" usually have better outcomes than hiding under the desk waiting for the shooter to find you. It does, of course, require that the person doing the E&E figure out where the danger is and then a route away from it. She has an "X/number of rooms in her school" chance of being caught in the actual shooting incident at school - awareness of the probabilities as opposed to the possibilities can go a long way towards keeping calm. The other part is how you get her to understand that she must disobey the instruction to hide under her desk and instead leave school without "official" permission - as well as how to do that (what exits are available? can she really get out a window? why it is OK to break the window if it won't open but otherwise would be an escape route. Etc.)

    Mass shootings like the Aurora theater incident are, at her age, more likely than the Trolley Square mall shooting (based on my completely uninformed wild guess that you do not yet let her wander the malls without an adult). There the best thing seems to be to get low and stay put - unless the shooter she is dealing with starts walking the aisles and shooting down the rows of seats. Then getting under a seat and becoming "invisible" might be the better choice than trying to get to an exit that is probably already blocked by a stampeding mob.

    Finally - while the discussions with your kid(s) is important, it is not something that needs to be made into a planning session for the re-invasion of Fortress Europe. You can also get your daughter to become engaged in developing a sense of situational awareness and working the OODA loop by throwing sudden, unexpected rewards her way when she demonstrates her ability. (After umpteen discussions with my kid, and countless times asking her "What would you do" as I pointed out something around us, she one day out of the blue turned the tables on me and asked me that question! She got, IIRC, a set of earings she had been letting me know she reallyreallyreally wanted. When she did it a second time she got, IIRC, some extra time on the computer. The third time she got a pat on the head and told she was a clever child. (And yes, she got the message that doing the trick was not always going to result in a prize. But she continued to do it every once in a while to both show off her skill and to see if that time she would get a prize.)

    Hope these ideas help.

    stay safe.
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  3. #3
    Regular Member Schlepnier's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    Nope
    Have not changed a thing. i always carry my taurus millenium pro compact .45 with a hi-cap and 2 spares. in a life or death situation if the 30+ rounds i am carrying do not do the job, i am either a terrible shot and/or i need ot leave.

    Also the theatre shooting you refer to is a red hering since lawful gun owners were not allowed to bring them into the theatre as per company policy.
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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Last edited by amlevin; 11-16-2012 at 09:20 AM.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

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  5. #5
    Regular Member DocWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharpender View Post
    I just finished reading "10 Lessons for Armed Citizens from the Aurora Theater Mass Murder" at http://www.activeresponsetraining.ne...armed-citizens.

    It got me wondering if anyone here has changed the weapon they carry in light of the mass shootings in Colorado, Texas, Wisconsin, etc.. Have you changed to a full-size from a compact, or maybe started carrying something with a higher capacity mag? Do you carry more mags with mass shootings in mind? Do you practice long range precision shooting with your usual OC/CC weapon? I OC/CC a P89, but I have not done much long range shooting. I typically carry one additional mag, but should probably up that with a second. I'm really just curious about any changes you have made specifically due to these types of situations.

    Another question for those of you that have kids... How do you talk to them about what to do if something like this happens without scaring the sh!t out of them? I have a 13 year old daughter and we have discussed school shootings, home invasions, attempted kidnappings, etc... and I'm afraid she's going to go agoraphobic on me if I through something else at her.

    Thanks!

    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the outcome of the vote." - Benjamin Franklin
    I agree that the Aurora theater was a unique situation of company policy and sheep that put their trust in the theater and police. I personally wouldn't have been in the theater..."no gun no movie".

    As for changing weapons or capacity nope, there are not many mass shootings that have 10-20 active shooters. Usally it is a 'Lone' gunman but as in the Colombine can have two or three. To me it all boils down to shot placement and hitting your target. I have been trained to shoot a 3 round burst (two to the chest and one to the head) by the military and law enforcement) when I worked for the state.

    If it takes you 30 rounds to stop "one" target then to me more training is needed.

    I carry a millenium pro 45acp with 13+1 and have a extra mag. I practice 2 times a month shooting from 10-50 feet moving in different angles and distance. (most shooters would not be standing 25 feet right in front of you; well at least every time I have been shot at).

    My wife carries a millenium pro 40cal and usally out shoots me, so I have to be nice to her.....lol

  6. #6
    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schlepnier View Post
    <snip>Also the theatre shooting you refer to is a red hering since lawful gun owners were not allowed to bring them into the theatre as per company policy.
    I don't believe it's a red herring. Rather, I think its a starting point to talk with less informed gun owners and other citizens. First, your statement, the way it is worded, is false. Lawful gun owners were allowed to bring their firearms into the theater. It was and is perfectly legal. Open carry aside, most of us on this forum know and understand the difference between the law and policy. I suggest we talk to our friends, neighbors and fellow gun owners about the difference and make sure they understand that these policies are damaging.

    As to changes in my carry. Yes, I used to pretty much just carry my firearm. Now I have been carrying an extra mag pretty much all of the time since this instance. Enough rounds to distract, engage, or generally expand some options.
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  7. #7
    Regular Member DamonK's Avatar
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    Re: Mass Shooting Intervention

    I've added a SIG P226 9mm to my inventory, with an extra mag. And now when I carry my 1911, I carry 2 power 10 spare mags as well. Either way I now carry about 30 rounds.

    Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2

  8. #8
    Regular Member Batousaii's Avatar
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    ~ Infantry ~

    In the U.S. Army infantry, in reacting to contact, in most situations we trained to go for cover first, assess and return fire second. When translating this to the civilian world, little changes. To coin a familiar anti-gunphrase, this is not the Wild West. One should not stand there in the midst of frag and lead hail counting on the capacity, size power or accuracy of their weapon to get them through it. Instead one's most valuable tool is the mind, and the weapon simply an extension of that tool, and should be used simultaneously with other tools and options. I agree with skidmark whole heartedly in regards to getting people to safety first, I.E. "Get Down / Get to cover / Get OUT" - THEN Assess and consider the clear shot, or cover fire in an effort to help escape danger. If one expects to survive by simply drawing the weapon and returning fire, then they can expect to get be a casualty, and will be of little use as a protector: One MUST Keep themselves safe and in fully functional capacity in order to effectively protect themselves or the others. If you go down, who will protect them, or you? When reacting to an ambush, where one is in close proximity and reaching cover is not an option, we are still taught to get down, and we are taught that you very well might get wounded, and you have to retain bearing and intestinal fortitude to return fire quickly. This could easily translate to a mugging, or a direct confrontation where cover or safety is not an option, and you must assess and consider options quickly. Drawing a weapon while one is being pointed directly at you is a daunting consideration, and you must use your brain before your brawn. In this I personally turn to Miyamoto Musashi who’s philosophy is to use the mind first, teaches that if it comes to blades, you must be willing to step in and get cut in order to strike down the opponent. In a close quarters combative situation, there is a high probability of receiving a wounding strike, and you must be able to maintain functionality and focus through it in order to stop the threat and dispatch the attacker. Guns, as we teach our children, are not toys, and defending one’s life or the life of others may cause great harm to the protector, and sometimes that is the only way. Always Always use the mind first, and the weapon as an extension of such.
    Last edited by Batousaii; 11-16-2012 at 11:16 AM.
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  9. #9
    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Changes to what I carry, no. I have carried a XD Subcompact in 40 S&W, Magazine capacity of 9 rounds and two extra mags for a total of 27 rounds and Crimson Laser Grips (great for low light areas)*
    When at the range I mostly engage targets around the 21 ft area but also shoot at 50 ft plus and am able to hit head shots at this distance. One must know their and their guns capability of engaging an active target and as stated before my post, there is a likelihood you will take fire but choose to fight through to eliminate the target.

    I have found that training from Firearms Academy of Seattle has enhanced my ability to engage moving targets from different positions and in low light situations and until one has the opportunity to engage such targets are behind the curve. I believe oldkim was offering most of these opportunities though I have not heard of any recent events.

    In the theater as the op stated one has just a second or two to decide on what to do, get family and self down out of view, identify the target and having no exit, take him out.

    *Crimson Laser Grips some like some don't and it is your choice. Using these laser grips it affords one an easy to turn off and on with as little as pressure applied with middle finger grip or by slightly raising your trigger finger to block the beam in low light or no light situations which is an advantage over the turn switch on and off ones on the market.
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    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    The Tacoma Mall shooting back in 2005 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacoma_Mall_shooting is a good example of what not to do.

    If Dan had shot first, and he had NOT opened his mouth, maybe he would not be paralized today. Active shooter, say nothing, and make sure your first shot is as damaging as is possible to the BG, and minimum possible harm to any others people that may be near.

    I normally carry a CZ85, 17 rounds of 9mm cannot get the job done, I need to be somewhere else. My main alternate is an Officers Model Colt 38 target poistol,,,again, if 6 cannot get the job done, I need to be somewhere else. Neither one of these carries is an offensive weapon, they are not designed to start a fight, just end it.
    Last edited by hermannr; 11-16-2012 at 02:16 PM.

  11. #11
    Regular Member tombrewster421's Avatar
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    Mass Shooting Intervention

    I've been carrying 50 rounds of 9mm for years and about a year and a half ago I got a new holster to accommodate my light laser combo. I usually conceal in an IWB at all theaters other than Yelm. But since the theater shooting I've been either covering my usual holster with a coat or keeping the light laser in my pocket should the need to use it in a dark theater arise.
    Guns don't kill people, bullets do!

  12. #12
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    OMG!!!! I am agreeing with BDave. If you have never shot the 5 in 5 drill, you should try it. It will open your eyes. From a distance of 5 yards, you draw from a CONCEALED carry, put 5 rounds in a 5" circle in 5 seconds. Sounds easy don't it? Try it and see just how easy it is... Firing more than 5 rounds is disqualifying.

  13. #13
    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trigger Dr View Post
    OMG!!!! I am agreeing with BDave. If you have never shot the 5 in 5 drill, you should try it. It will open your eyes. From a distance of 5 yards, you draw from a CONCEALED carry, put 5 rounds in a 5" circle in 5 seconds. Sounds easy don't it? Try it and see just how easy it is... Firing more than 5 rounds is disqualifying.
    Yes that's a hard drill, but worth the practice. Now do the same drill in a small space full of smoke.... even more fun.

    Good thing that when in a real life situation, there are no rules. Other than take cover, return fire, reload....ymmv
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    Regular Member Difdi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    Yes that's a hard drill, but worth the practice. Now do the same drill in a small space full of smoke.... even more fun.
    Don't forget to add randomly-timed strobe lights, if you're talking about indoor shooting in dark areas.

  15. #15
    Regular Member aa1911's Avatar
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    I haven't changed much of anything although not long before the CO shooting, I had switched to a Glock 35 for extra firepower over my beloved 1911. I love my 45 but the glock just feeds HP ammo better and holds double the rounds. the G35 is actually about the same size as my full size 45 but also lighter.

    So including my mag extension on one of my mags, I have 47 rounds on my person in .40 at all times plus my backup gun. BUG is either a NAA .22 mag or a small frame .357, always have at least 10-15 rounds for it on board.

    Then if I get to my truck, I can shoot for hours, always have a few hundred rounds or so plus about 6-10 loaded mags extra. But I'm crazy...

    It does pay to practice regularly at longer than usual handgun distances to know your side arm's true potential, not to mention your own.

    the goal is to take out BG without hitting any innocents in the process, pretty tough to do in a crowd and with a handgun at that. But chances are, if he's lighting the place up, people have 'dispersed' the area and you might be able to sling a barrage of boo-lits at him, just make that first one count especially so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Batousaii View Post
    In the U.S. Army infantry, in reacting to contact, in most situations we trained to go for cover first, assess and return fire second.
    Air Force: just nuke 'em .... problem solved...

    Protecting yourself is #1 priority of course.

  17. #17
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs
    Lawful gun owners were allowed to bring their firearms into the [Aurora] theater.
    I thought they were posted?
    Isn't that a legally-binding prohibition in CO? (Doesn't it count as notice of trespass?)

    Quote Originally Posted by aa1911
    It does pay to practice regularly at longer than usual handgun distances to know your side arm's true potential, not to mention your own.
    The first time someone convinced me to shoot @ 50 yards with my pistol I thought he was crazy.
    (I still do, just for different reasons.)
    But even as little as I've been able to practice in the last year, I can pretty reliably hit a torso-sized target.
    Even if someone has body armor, that's going to get their attention.

    ETA: to answer the original question, no, I haven't changed what pistol I carry or how much extra ammo due to the latest mass shootings (2 in the last several months here in the Milwaukee area).
    Last edited by MKEgal; 11-17-2012 at 02:38 PM.
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  18. #18
    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Not to be critical of what others do but a little more to consider.

    As to the shooting at 50 yards, I do believe it is something good to know if for nothing else to know ones own and firearms limitations but now add a moving target at that distance and the probability goes out the window though if we're able to get a still target, maybe the odds are good enough to take that shot when factoring in the threat.

    While exercises as the 5 shots in 5 seconds in a 5 inch circle may well be a good practice but as a personal note, when I go to the range I load my magazines load and let them fly as if one was encountering a conflict, no warm up shots. I feel the first shots in practice are the most important to me, they likely tell the story of hitting or not hitting your target.
    Later I will go to concentrating on single shots.

    During an incident we do not get warm up shots, you have made the choice, draw and shoot, hopefully end of incident in short order.
    Not that all incidents will not afford you the opportunity as at the Tacoma Mall it seems one would have had time to take cover or concealment, take time to aim and take out the target and follow up shots as needed.
    Drawing my firearm, putting it away then try and talk him down was his way out of it, not my choice and well, we will live with our choices, make them yours.

    Some including myself in the past have subscribed to the concept that make your first shot/s count. I have over time revised it for myself, depending on the threat and if it is here and now even getting off a shot that misses still has an effect on the perpetrator that there is another out there with a gun and is shooting, at him!
    Some who seem to be smarter then me have described what they call OODA Loop is how someone processes information in a conflict, They Observe, Orientate, Decide and Act and each time this thought process is interrupted it starts all over again and possibly giving you a chance to get ahead of the curve. This is why Law Enforcement Yells and Screams Orders quickly and loudly as it can interrupt the Decide and Act portion of this portion.
    Last edited by BigDave; 11-17-2012 at 03:35 PM.
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  19. #19
    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    Not to be critical of what others do but a little more to consider.

    As to the shooting at 50 yards, I do believe it is something good to know if for nothing else to know ones own and firearms limitations but now add a moving target at that distance and the probability goes out the window though if we're able to get a still target, maybe the odds are good enough to take that shot when factoring in the threat.
    An Air Force Security Policeman named Andrew Brown (who by the way, graduated from my Alma Mater of South Kitsap High School) scored a 70 yard head shot while under rifle fire during a mass shooting at the Fairchild AFB hospital in Spokane. If you practice enough it's not unthinkable to take a distance shot if you have it.
    Last edited by EMNofSeattle; 11-17-2012 at 05:11 PM.
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  20. #20
    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    I thought they were posted?
    Isn't that a legally-binding prohibition in CO? (Doesn't it count as notice of trespass?) <snip>
    Not according to http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/colorado.pdf

    They do not have the force of law.
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  21. #21
    Regular Member aa1911's Avatar
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    orientate is not a word... orient....

    but on a serious note, have to agree BigDave.

    moving targets add a huge challenge


    but rest assured, when someone is shooting at you, your actions will certainly be altered a tad!!!!

    known, likely, suspected enemy positions..... light 'em up, if nothing else, suppression helps quite a bit. Best suppression is death, but close shots don't hurt either... makes you re-think your actions at that moment.

    the CO shooter obviously couldn't handle a fight as he pretty much turned himself in not wanting to get shot. hmmm.... methinks a few rounds tossed back in his direction would have possibly changed his course of action at least a bit.

    oh wait, guns are scary, lets just ban them all then we'll all be 100% safe, right?

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    Regular Member Vitaeus's Avatar
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    Range I use doesn't allow draw from holster, so closest I can get is to do first shot with long trigger pull from uncocked hammer (Sig 2022) and second round from cocked. Then decock and repeat. Not as good as full dress rehearsal with al the bangs and flashing lights, but better than just relaxed shooting.

  23. #23
    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vitaeus View Post
    Range I use doesn't allow draw from holster, so closest I can get is to do first shot with long trigger pull from uncocked hammer (Sig 2022) and second round from cocked. Then decock and repeat. Not as good as full dress rehearsal with al the bangs and flashing lights, but better than just relaxed shooting.
    There are a few training schools or classes that offer the ability to do all of these and thus my point earlier.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

  24. #24
    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vitaeus View Post
    Range I use doesn't allow draw from holster, so closest I can get is to do first shot with long trigger pull from uncocked hammer (Sig 2022) and second round from cocked. Then decock and repeat. Not as good as full dress rehearsal with al the bangs and flashing lights, but better than just relaxed shooting.
    Which range, I do holster draw whenever I shoot at KRRC
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  25. #25
    Regular Member Phoenix David's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hermannr View Post
    The Tacoma Mall shooting back in 2005 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacoma_Mall_shooting is a good example of what not to do.

    If Dan had shot first, and he had NOT opened his mouth, maybe he would not be paralized today. Active shooter, say nothing, and make sure your first shot is as damaging as is possible to the BG, and minimum possible harm to any others people that may be near.

    I normally carry a CZ85, 17 rounds of 9mm cannot get the job done, I need to be somewhere else. My main alternate is an Officers Model Colt 38 target poistol,,,again, if 6 cannot get the job done, I need to be somewhere else. Neither one of these carries is an offensive weapon, they are not designed to start a fight, just end it.
    Its always been my opinion that if the use of deadly force is legally justified and I have not found in law where any warning is required. I also think that it is tactically unsound to give any warning.

    In my situation if the use of deadly force is required and legally justified I would not give any warning.
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