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Thread: NC ID statutes

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    NC ID statutes

    What exactly are the the statues for identifying yourself to an officer I know you don't have to show them your ID (papers), but what information do you have to give them if any and under what circumstances?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tCan View Post
    What exactly are the the statues for identifying yourself to an officer I know you don't have to show them your ID (papers), but what information do you have to give them if any and under what circumstances?
    What a broad question. The best I can do for you is refer you to the Fourth Amendment and Fifth Amendment and court cases Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of Nevada and Terry v. Ohio. There are a lot of good videos on youtube that deal with open carry and contact with law enforcement. I will not point out any specific one so...

    The subject you are inquiring about has been dealt with on a federal level which trumps anything at state level.
    Last edited by NC-Heel; 11-17-2012 at 03:54 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tCan View Post
    What exactly are the the statues for identifying yourself to an officer I know you don't have to show them your ID (papers), but what information do you have to give them if any and under what circumstances?
    Americans cannot be required generally to have or carry ID. Kolender v. Lawsen.

    North Carolina does not have a statute requiring open carriers to carry ID. In fact the NC S. Ct. ruled that the state cannot require open carriers to submit to licensing. State v. Kerner.

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    So suppose you are detained, do you have to tell them your name and DOB
    Last edited by tCan; 11-17-2012 at 06:37 PM.

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    Regular Member papa bear's Avatar
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    in NC you "may" give your name and address, you are not required to prove it.

    tried to find the law to cite but couldn't come up with it. do know through the 4th and %th amendment you don't have to do anything
    Luke 22:36 ; 36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

    "guns are like a Parachute, if you don't have one when you need it, you will not need one again"
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    i you call a CHP a CCW then you are really stupid. period.

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    North carolina is not a stop and ID state, which means a LEO cannot simply stop you and tell you to produce ID unless he believes with reasonable articulable suspicion that you are about too or have commited a crime. So can they stop you for open carry? sure they can they can stop you for anything. But your response needs to be " Am I free to go or am I being detained." in any situation with a official LEO encounter. But open carry is not a licensed activity so carrying a ID is not essential to being able to carry a pistol openly but you are licensed to carry concealed so you have to produce ID for them no matter what,see how great open carry is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tCan View Post
    So suppose you are detained, do you have to tell them your name and DOB
    To be detained means you are suspected of committing a crime that warrants further investigation. A common conversation in a open carriers contact by a LEO goes something like this:


    Officer: What is your name?

    OC'er: Am I being detained or am I Free to go?

    Officer: Just trying to find out who you are.

    OC'er: Am I required by law to give you this information? Are you giving me a dutiful command?

    Officer: I just need your name so I can make sure you can legally carry a gun. Make sure you are not a felon. (They want you to prove you are innocent. What happened to innocent until proven guilty?)

    OC'er: Do you have reasonable suspicion that I have committed, am committing or am about to commit a crime?

    Officer: Just trying to find out who I am speaking to.

    OC'er: Am I being detained or am I free to go?

    Officer: Have a good day.
    Last edited by NC-Heel; 11-18-2012 at 05:36 AM.
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    Great! Now I can continue my civil resistance with anonymity.

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    I believe, in North Carolina, you are not required to give any identifying information to an officer or answer any questions while stopped on the street unless you're being detained for a crime.

    While in a vehicle, you do have to provide identification:
    "§ 20-29. Surrender of license.

    Any person operating or in charge of a motor vehicle, when requested by an officer in uniform, or, in the event of accident in which the vehicle which he is operating or in charge of shall be involved, when requested by any other person, who shall refuse to write his name for the purpose of identification or to give his name and address and the name and address of the owner of such vehicle, or who shall give a false name or address, or who shall refuse, on demand of such officer or such other person, to produce his license and exhibit same to such officer or such other person for the purpose of examination, or who shall refuse to surrender his license on demand of the Division, or fail to produce same when requested by a court of this State, shall be guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor. Pickup notices for drivers' licenses or revocation or suspension of license notices and orders or demands issued by the Division for the surrender of such licenses may be served and executed by patrolmen or other peace officers or may be served in accordance with G.S. 20-48. Patrolmen and peace officers, while serving and executing such notices, orders and demands, shall have all the power and authority possessed by peace officers when serving the executing warrants charging violations of the criminal laws of the State. (1935, c. 52, s. 23; 1949, c. 583, s. 7; 1975, c. 716, s. 5; 1979, c. 667, s. 25; 1981, c. 938, s. 1; 1993, c. 539, s. 323; 1994, Ex. Sess., c. 24, s. 14(c).)
    "
    However you are allowed to refuse to answer any questions beyond that. You do have to comply with any officer instructions, though.

    I have read that an officer can charge you with "resist and delay" for not providing your name when stopped on the street if he has "reasonable suspicion" to presume you were involved in a crime, however the statute:

    Quote :
    "§ 14-223. Resisting officers.

    If any person shall willfully and unlawfully resist, delay or obstruct a public officer in discharging or attempting to discharge a duty of his office, he shall be guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor. (1889, c. 51, s. 1; Rev., s. 3700; C.S., s. 4378; 1969, c. 1224, s. 1; 1993, c. 539, s. 136; 1994, Ex. Sess., c. 24, s. 14(c).)"


    Is a bit vague.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dashowdy View Post
    ....... but you are licensed to carry concealed so you have to produce ID for them no matter what,see how great open carry is.
    not exactly. Just cuz you have a CHP means nothing, the only time you are required to show ID is if you are actually CCing at the time of LEO encounter

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    "While many states have enacted “stop and identify” statutes such as the one in Hiibel, North Carolina has not.   The State overlooks this crucial distinction.   We further note that in Hiibel, the Supreme Court did not hold that an officer could, during the Terry frisk, search for proof of identification as well as weapons.   Although the Court did note in passing that officers called to investigate domestic disputes need to know whom they are dealing with in order to assess the situation and the threat to their own safety, the Court did not suggest that an officer can use a pat-down to locate an identification card.  Id. at 186, 124 S.Ct. at 2458, 159 L.Ed.2d at 303."

    ^From: http://caselaw.findlaw.com/nc-court-...s/1577841.html

    Hiibel is largely irrelevant in NC and other states who have not adopted "stop and ID" statutes.

    You don't have to show your ID, or provide your info in NC. Even if you're being detained. However, I was arrested for refusing to do just that and charged with obstruction. It was dismissed 5 months later, after much stress and heartache (and a night in county, and $1500 bond, and $1500 attorney fees, and stealing my favorite 1911 until the matter was settled etc...)

    Weigh your decision, and if at all possible film / record the encounter. My recording is the only thing that saved my ass from a cop who had no problem providing completely false statements to the DA, which were subsequently completely countered by my video evidence.

    I think the best thing to do would be to film the officer threatening you with arrest or charges for failing to provide ID (which is a lie), and then filing a complaint as soon as possible. You have the law on your side, but that may not keep you out of jail if you "stick to your guns" on the issue.
    "In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." - Mark Twain

    I don't bother with pragmatic statistics while discussing my constitutional rights. The issue is far less complex, to me. Free men should be able to act like free men.

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    Regular Member carolina guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smith45acp View Post
    "While many states have enacted “stop and identify” statutes such as the one in Hiibel, North Carolina has not.   The State overlooks this crucial distinction.   We further note that in Hiibel, the Supreme Court did not hold that an officer could, during the Terry frisk, search for proof of identification as well as weapons.   Although the Court did note in passing that officers called to investigate domestic disputes need to know whom they are dealing with in order to assess the situation and the threat to their own safety, the Court did not suggest that an officer can use a pat-down to locate an identification card.  Id. at 186, 124 S.Ct. at 2458, 159 L.Ed.2d at 303."

    ^From: http://caselaw.findlaw.com/nc-court-...s/1577841.html

    Hiibel is largely irrelevant in NC and other states who have not adopted "stop and ID" statutes.

    You don't have to show your ID, or provide your info in NC. Even if you're being detained. However, I was arrested for refusing to do just that and charged with obstruction. It was dismissed 5 months later, after much stress and heartache (and a night in county, and $1500 bond, and $1500 attorney fees, and stealing my favorite 1911 until the matter was settled etc...)

    Weigh your decision, and if at all possible film / record the encounter. My recording is the only thing that saved my ass from a cop who had no problem providing completely false statements to the DA, which were subsequently completely countered by my video evidence.

    I think the best thing to do would be to film the officer threatening you with arrest or charges for failing to provide ID (which is a lie), and then filing a complaint as soon as possible. You have the law on your side, but that may not keep you out of jail if you "stick to your guns" on the issue.
    From another post by MKEgal had this good list:

    "The Claim and exercise of a Constitutional Right cannot be converted into a crime."
    Miller v. U.S.

    The Third Circuit found that an individual’s lawful possession of a firearm in a crowded place did not justify a search or seizure.
    United States v. Ubiles

    The Tenth Circuit found that an investigatory detention initiated by an officer after he discovered that the defendant lawfully possessed a loaded firearm lacked sufficient basis because the firearm alone did not create a reasonable suspicion of criminal activity.
    United States v. King

    "Stopping a car for no other reason than to check the license and registration was unreasonable under the 4th amendment."
    Delaware v. Prouse
    [So obviously stopping someone solely to check for a carry license is also an unreasonable search.]

    "The mere presence of firearms does not create exigent circumstances."
    Wisconsin v. Kiekhefer

    "Mr. St. John’s lawful possession of a loaded firearm in a crowded place could not, by itself, create a reasonable suspicion sufficient to justify an investigatory detention."
    St. John v. McColley

    "Police conduct does not need to be egregious or outrageous in order to be coercive. Subtle pressures are considered to be coercive if they exceed the defendant’s ability to resist. Pressures that are not coercive in one set of circumstances may be coercive in another set of circumstances."
    Wisconsin v. Hoppe


    *****


    42USC1983 Civil action for deprivation of rights
    Every person who, under color of any statute, ordinance, regulation, custom, or usage, of any State or Territory or the District of Columbia, subjects, or causes to be subjected, any citizen of the United States or other person within the jurisdiction thereof to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured by the Constitution and laws, shall be liable to the party injured in an action at law, suit in equity, or other proper proceeding for redress...

    42USC1985 Conspiracy to interfere with civil rights
    (which is applicable to anyone but is still only a civil action)
    (3) Depriving persons of rights or privileges
    If two or more persons in any State ... conspire ... for the purpose of depriving, either directly or indirectly, any person ... of equal privileges and immunities under the laws
    ...
    in any case of conspiracy set forth in this section, if one or more persons engaged therein do, or cause to be done, any act in furtherance of the object of such conspiracy, whereby another is ... deprived of having and exercising any right or privilege of a citizen of the United States, the party so injured or deprived may have an action for the recovery of damages occasioned by such injury or deprivation, against any one or more of the conspirators.

    18USC241 Conspiracy against rights, however, is a felony & is applicable to anyone.
    If two or more persons conspire to injure, oppress, threaten, or intimidate any person in any State ... in the free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege secured to him by the Constitution or laws of the United States, or because of his having so exercised the same
    ...
    They shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both...
    Ever thought of suing?
    Last edited by carolina guy; 11-26-2012 at 06:51 PM. Reason: edited to include post link
    If something is wrong for ONE person to do to another, it is still wrong if a BILLION people do it.

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    Regular Member dmatting's Avatar
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    Driver License Checkpoints?

    I was less than a mile from my house at around 1am on Monday night / Tuesday morning. I'm driving home from the airport - so I didn't have my gun with me (only took carry-on items and I was not going to leave it in the car at the airport) - after a long day of travel from Austin, TX. I'm in Northern Durham county on a secondary road (maybe even tertiary - idk) and come up on a roadblock consisting of 2 sheriff deputies. They said it was a "license check". What a crock that is. I didn't argue because I remembered reading somewhere that the courts said that those kinds of stops were OK as long as they were stopping everyone.

    I'm still not sure - but it was bs, nonetheless.

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    to cigarface

    if you are carrying concealed you have to notify imediatly when adressed and produce you cc permit.you cc permit refers the cop to your drvers licence.
    you must show your drivers licence.
    i'd rather be a hammer than a nail.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dmatting View Post
    I was less than a mile from my house at around 1am on Monday night / Tuesday morning. I'm driving (snip).
    I know this is an OC site.

    Had a DL check when I got on 321N a few weeks ago. Handed my DL and permit over and the officer just said 'thank you' and we were on our way. I was carrying and I notified. Problem was my wife noticed the two IDs and asked what the second was for. I've been carrying for 10 years and she don't know. Oh well...

    Was the stop legal or not I don't know. I did know that it was not the right time to fight that battle.

    -R
    Last edited by rdinatal; 11-29-2012 at 11:48 PM.

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    The last time I came through a license check the SHP guy waved me through before I could even disclose. I was like but, but... ok.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bellyfat View Post
    if you are carrying concealed you have to notify imediatly when adressed and produce you cc permit.you cc permit refers the cop to your drvers licence.
    you must show your drivers licence.
    how does a CHP refer a cop to your DL?

    if you are driving a car, you have to show your DL regardless. Other than that keep your DL in your wallet! IF you are CCing and are dealing with a LEO you must notify them you are CCing and produce your CHP and any legal form of ID. I usually don't carry my passport with me at all times, but I do carry my military ID, neither of which show my address pretty much all they have is my name and DOB.

  18. #18
    Regular Member papa bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dmatting View Post
    I was less than a mile from my house at around 1am on Monday night / Tuesday morning. I'm driving home from the airport - so I didn't have my gun with me (only took carry-on items and I was not going to leave it in the car at the airport) - after a long day of travel from Austin, TX. I'm in Northern Durham county on a secondary road (maybe even tertiary - idk) and come up on a roadblock consisting of 2 sheriff deputies. They said it was a "license check". What a crock that is. I didn't argue because I remembered reading somewhere that the courts said that those kinds of stops were OK as long as they were stopping everyone.

    I'm still not sure - but it was bs, nonetheless.
    i have always wondered about 6the "search everyone" tactic,or search at random tactic. does that mean that if you search all apartments in a building, you can search a specific one too, or maybe a whole block, or a whole city, etc...

    same for random, if i spin a wheel, and search just a few homes, can i search the one i want too?
    Luke 22:36 ; 36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

    "guns are like a Parachute, if you don't have one when you need it, you will not need one again"
    - unknown

    i you call a CHP a CCW then you are really stupid. period.

  19. #19
    Regular Member carolina guy's Avatar
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    When the police allow people to search their homes/cars, I might consider allowing them to search our home/cars. Until then...fair is fair, and the Constitution is still (for now) the Constitution.
    If something is wrong for ONE person to do to another, it is still wrong if a BILLION people do it.

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