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Thread: Mass shooting at Mo. theater averted

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Mass shooting at Mo. theater averted

    http://tinyurl.com/cdyb2nf

    Police in Bolivar, Mo. said they uncovered a young man's plan to commit mass murder at a screening of the new "Twilight" movie.
    According to court documents obtained by KCTV, [name redacted to deny him recognition] planned to carry out a mass shooting at a theater in Bolivar and later decided a better location would be a Walmart, because it would have access to more ammunition.
    ....
    KY3TV reports that [name redacted to deny him recognition] also allegedly told police "he had a lot in common" with people who have carried out recent mass shootings, according to a probable cause statement obtained by the station. "He stated that he was quiet, kind of a loner, had recently purchased firearms and didn't tell anybody about it, and had homicidal thoughts," the statement said.
    Even including the homocidal thoughts this nut-job is really not that different from the rest of us. What makes him different, among important tings, is that he has a mother who both keeps tab on what her kid is doing* and is willing to "do the right thing". What makes this guy different from many of the recent mass shooters is that he did not post his plans on FaceBook.

    stay safe.

    * - It's just a guess, but I do not think he lived in his mother's basement eating Cheetos, drinking Mountain Dew, and playing video games all day and night. And it's also just a guess that his mother was not constantly monitoring (spying) on him.

    I am waiting for the anti-gun rights crowd to chime in and say we need to pass another law to make sure something like this sdoes not happen again. He knew there were laws (lots of laws!) against what he was thinking of doing. Those laws do not seem to have made any difference. But apparently, so the anti-gun rights crowd says, we have not passed the law that will be able to stop these things from happening.

    IMHO what we as a society ought to do is let his mother know that we support her decision to turn in her son.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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    Regular Member Griz's Avatar
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    He did have an interesting thought process. Changing to Walmart for more ammunition shows more intelligence than some of the more recent shooters.

    On the lighter side, it was "Twilight". How much damage (benefit?) could he do to the gene pool?

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    Situations like this make me wonder; are the mentally upset so much more prone to violence, or are they simply more susceptible to suggestion?


    Quote Originally Posted by Griz View Post
    On the lighter side, it was "Twilight". How much damage (benefit?) could he do to the gene pool?
    I may or may not have just snorted coffee through my nose...

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    Regular Member MikeTheGreek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Griz View Post
    He did have an interesting thought process. Changing to Walmart for more ammunition shows more intelligence than some of the more recent shooters.

    On the lighter side, it was "Twilight". How much damage (benefit?) could he do to the gene pool?

    I know I shouldn't be laughing but I am...

    Although..being younger, most girls I've dated have loved Twilight, so I've seen all of the movies at least 3 times..

    They're....not that bad
    Molon Labe

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    Maybe he was making plans so to design a counter plan to protect people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeTheGreek View Post
    I know I shouldn't be laughing but I am...

    Although..being younger, most girls I've dated have loved Twilight, so I've seen all of the movies at least 3 times..

    They're....not that bad
    Please turn in your man card.
    Last edited by zack991; 11-17-2012 at 02:32 PM.
    -I come in peace, I didn't bring artillery. But I am pleading with you with tears in my eyes: If you screw with me, I'll kill you all.
    -Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.
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    Regular Member Lord Sega's Avatar
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    While it's good that another mass shooting may have been avoided, what do they really have on him?
    Just to play the devils advocate...

    Being a loner (even if still living in mom's basement) is not a crime. (and if at mom's, she as the owner could prohibit guns in her house.)
    Buying and owning guns is not a crime (unless he was prohibited... is his mental illness documented to the point he can't have guns?)
    Thinking about doing something is not a crime. (1984 thought crimes, really?)

    So, all they have is his statements. The news article doesn't state that he made statements to his mom, just her saying he bought guns.
    What was the RAS or PC to investigate prior to his statements to police?

    Now this is off the cuff, I need to read the actual laws of his state for the charges, but my thoughts at first...

    After being interviewed they charge him with:
    First-degree assault - who did he assault? Maybe attempted assault, but if he never even started his plan, he hadn't attempted anything... yet.
    Making a terroristic threat - only based on his statements to the LEOs, again, thought crime based.
    Armed criminal action - where is the action? He had not done anything yet, until there is action this doesn't appear to apply.

    Once he has a lawyer, and recants his confession, and it's determined that the LEOs did not have RAS or PC to "interview" him so the statements are thrown out, what then?

    Shouldn't the LEOs have advised the mom that there was nothing they could do but keep an eye on him at that point, but recommend that she get her son in to see a shrink if she felt he was having problems? Then based of the shrink's findings, she could possibly petition the courts for an order to remove / confiscate the guns as a danger to himself and others i.e officially declaring him prohibited?

    If he had taken the 5th instead of opening up and confessing his thoughts, he would been back hone, with his guns, still planning or maybe executing his plan.
    It's good to stop a mass shooting, but I'm just seeing a real over-reach by the LEOs and a real mess in the courts once he gets a competent lawyer.

    Just my thoughts...
    "Guns are not the problem … crazy is the problem” ... “We cannot legislate our society to the craziest amongst us.” - Jon Stewart
    “I do not love the bright sword for it's sharpness, nor the arrow for it's swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend." - Tolkien

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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Griz View Post
    He did have an interesting thought process. Changing to Walmart for more ammunition shows more intelligence than some of the more recent shooters.

    On the lighter side, it was "Twilight". How much damage (benefit?) could he do to the gene pool?
    The Walmartians might have been the real target.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    The Walmartians might have been the real target.
    "Walmart" or "Gun Emporium" ... which target to choose ... hmmmmm

    Really, we have no idea what the idiot told the cops .. me may have hung himself ... time will tell.

    But just making a "plan" isn't enough ... IMO

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Sega View Post
    While it's good that another mass shooting may have been avoided, what do they really have on him?
    Just to play the devils advocate...

    Being a loner (even if still living in mom's basement) is not a crime. (and if at mom's, she as the owner could prohibit guns in her house.)
    Buying and owning guns is not a crime (unless he was prohibited... is his mental illness documented to the point he can't have guns?)
    Thinking about doing something is not a crime. (1984 thought crimes, really?)

    So, all they have is his statements. The news article doesn't state that he made statements to his mom, just her saying he bought guns.
    What was the RAS or PC to investigate prior to his statements to police?

    Now this is off the cuff, I need to read the actual laws of his state for the charges, but my thoughts at first...

    After being interviewed they charge him with:
    First-degree assault - who did he assault? Maybe attempted assault, but if he never even started his plan, he hadn't attempted anything... yet.
    Making a terroristic threat - only based on his statements to the LEOs, again, thought crime based.
    Armed criminal action - where is the action? He had not done anything yet, until there is action this doesn't appear to apply.

    Once he has a lawyer, and recants his confession, and it's determined that the LEOs did not have RAS or PC to "interview" him so the statements are thrown out, what then?

    Shouldn't the LEOs have advised the mom that there was nothing they could do but keep an eye on him at that point, but recommend that she get her son in to see a shrink if she felt he was having problems? Then based of the shrink's findings, she could possibly petition the courts for an order to remove / confiscate the guns as a danger to himself and others i.e officially declaring him prohibited?

    If he had taken the 5th instead of opening up and confessing his thoughts, he would been back hone, with his guns, still planning or maybe executing his plan.
    It's good to stop a mass shooting, but I'm just seeing a real over-reach by the LEOs and a real mess in the courts once he gets a competent lawyer.

    Just my thoughts...
    My thoughts exactly.

    If all they have is his confession to the police, then they have NOTHING. He can say he was going to do whatever he pleases, but without evidence that a crime has taken place, then they will have nothing to charge him with in court. I don't see how he could be charged with terroristic threatening or any like charge because it was a self-confession to the investigators, and not to an individual person.

    It has long been established that without evidence, a crime cannot be prosecuted. I could walk into my local police station right now and admit to a murder, but without evidence that shows the crime was committed and that it is probable that it was committed by me then they have nothing to charge me with.

    I am confused here; is there other information in this case floating around or is this it?
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    My thoughts exactly.
    ....

    It has long been established that without evidence, a crime cannot be prosecuted. I could walk into my local police station right now and admit to a murder, but without evidence that shows the crime was committed and that it is probable that it was committed by me then they have nothing to charge me with.

    ....
    I'm sorry. I'll stop laughing as soon as I can - that might take some time so feel free to go get a drink and a snack.

    While it is supposed to be that they cannot convict you without evidence, we all know that is not how the system always works.

    And I have looked at my original post where I said that his mother "did the right thing". I stand by that. But I agree with everybody else that the police seem to have gone way out of bounds in what they did after Mom contacted them. I suppose their "thinking" was that it is far better to violate the rights of one guy and most likely not have that plastered all over the media than to risk his carrying something out before they could start the temporary detention process of getting him in for a psych eval.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
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    Some have already mentioned that we are missing alot of details but....Who's to say he didn't volunteer all the info to the cops after being advised of his rights. If that's the case I see no issues with police action yet. The charges they filed sound odd because he didn't attempt anything yet. What they should and probably will charge him with is conspiracy of some kind. A crime doesn't need to take place just the planning of the crime.

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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mustangkiller View Post
    Some have already mentioned that we are missing alot of details but....Who's to say he didn't volunteer all the info to the cops after being advised of his rights. If that's the case I see no issues with police action yet. The charges they filed sound odd because he didn't attempt anything yet. What they should and probably will charge him with is conspiracy of some kind. A crime doesn't need to take place just the planning of the crime.
    Unless there was another helping him then it cannot be conspiracy.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Regular Member carolina guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    Unless there was another helping him then it cannot be conspiracy.
    What happens with multiple personalities? :-)
    If something is wrong for ONE person to do to another, it is still wrong if a BILLION people do it.

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Sega
    What was the RAS or PC to investigate prior to his statements to police?
    We need more information, real, good information, & we're unlikely to get that from the media.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Sega
    First-degree assault - whom did he assault? Maybe attempted assault, but if he never even started his plan, he hadn't attempted anything... yet.
    Making a terroristic threat - only based on his statements to the LEOs, again, thought crime based.
    Armed criminal action - where is the action? He had not done anything yet, until there is action this doesn't appear to apply.
    In some states, the attempt is considered by law to be the same as a completed crime.
    But it seems he hadn't actually done anything (illegal) yet, so they shouldn't even be able to use that against him.

    Quote Originally Posted by article
    if he ran out of ammunition... he would just break the glass where the ammunition is stored and get some more
    Completely ignoring the fact that it leaves him vulnerable to someone attacking him while he's out of ammo.

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    Here is the link to the discussion in the MO thread.

    In court yesterday, it was ordered by the judge for him to go under a psychological review. I asked an attorney friend of mine yesterday about the charges, he was a little confused too. (Disclosure...this attorney deals with civil matters, not criminal.)
    "I can live for two weeks on a good compliment."
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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carolina guy View Post
    What happens with multiple personalities? :-)
    The don't talk to each other and they often do things that the other ones don't seem to know about.

    Source: My ex-wife.

    She had multiple personality disorder and believe you me, if it didn't count as a "group activity" then, it's not conspiracy now.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Regular Member Lord Sega's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    The don't talk to each other and they often do things that the other ones don't seem to know about.

    Source: My ex-wife.

    She had multiple personality disorder and believe you me, if it didn't count as a "group activity" then, it's not conspiracy now.
    So Freedom1Man... while married to your ex, were you married to all the personalities thus guilty of bigamy, or just the one personality thus guilty of infidelity with the others?
    "Guns are not the problem … crazy is the problem” ... “We cannot legislate our society to the craziest amongst us.” - Jon Stewart
    “I do not love the bright sword for it's sharpness, nor the arrow for it's swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend." - Tolkien

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    Regular Member Lord Sega's Avatar
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    Now THAT'S how you go off topic in a thread around here!
    "Guns are not the problem … crazy is the problem” ... “We cannot legislate our society to the craziest amongst us.” - Jon Stewart
    “I do not love the bright sword for it's sharpness, nor the arrow for it's swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend." - Tolkien

  20. #20
    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Sega View Post
    So Freedom1Man... while married to your ex, were you married to all the personalities thus guilty of bigamy, or just the one personality thus guilty of infidelity with the others?
    Well it that was not polygamy then this guy is not guilt of conspiracy for having multiple personalities.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Regular Member DocWalker's Avatar
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    Why did "Judge Dread" come to mind. You are guilty of crimes you haven't done yet.....

    I'm not saying the guy has all his chairs pulled to the table or that he isn't a few fries short of a happy meal but what is it to say the cops or goverment don't just come in an take your guns and say we are arresting you for crimes you "might" commit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    I'm sorry. I'll stop laughing as soon as I can - that might take some time so feel free to go get a drink and a snack.

    While it is supposed to be that they cannot convict you without evidence, we all know that is not how the system always works.

    And I have looked at my original post where I said that his mother "did the right thing". I stand by that. But I agree with everybody else that the police seem to have gone way out of bounds in what they did after Mom contacted them. I suppose their "thinking" was that it is far better to violate the rights of one guy and most likely not have that plastered all over the media than to risk his carrying something out before they could start the temporary detention process of getting him in for a psych eval.

    stay safe.
    You are right, it does not always work that way; however, it does work this way the majority of the time.

    Although I will agree with you that the Justice system is becoming more of a joke everyday. I don't even know that I would still call it a justice system, because justice is rarely served on either end.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

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