Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 70

Thread: Info LEO's have.

  1. #1
    Activist Member golddigger14s's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Lacey, Washington, USA
    Posts
    1,991

    Info LEO's have.

    Found this on seattleguns.net
    http://seattleguns.net/showthread.ph...info-in-a-stop
    "I always thought the police did not know I had a cpl or that I owned firwarms in a stop, well I found out differently today. A good friend of mine is a former SPD and current bellevue PD took me for a ride today. He ran my plate whch brought up the registered owner, me...clicked on my license number which showed my photo, ss#, driving record, etc. Scroll down a little, motorcycle license, CPL #, WTF...CPL... Issue date, exp, issued by kc sheriff, then this shocked me most...A list of every firearm I own, model, serial, where I bought it WTF. I had no idea they had all this info. I still cant believe it."
    "The beauty of the Second Amenment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." Thomas Jefferson
    "Evil often triumphs, but never conquers." Joseph Roux
    http://nwfood.shelfreliance.com

  2. #2
    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Okanogan Highland
    Posts
    2,332
    Quote Originally Posted by golddigger14s View Post
    Found this on seattleguns.net
    http://seattleguns.net/showthread.ph...info-in-a-stop
    "I always thought the police did not know I had a cpl or that I owned firwarms in a stop, well I found out differently today. A good friend of mine is a former SPD and current bellevue PD took me for a ride today. He ran my plate whch brought up the registered owner, me...clicked on my license number which showed my photo, ss#, driving record, etc. Scroll down a little, motorcycle license, CPL #, WTF...CPL... Issue date, exp, issued by kc sheriff, then this shocked me most...A list of every firearm I own, model, serial, where I bought it WTF. I had no idea they had all this info. I still cant believe it."
    If you read RCW 9.41 carefully you will see that LE can access: #1: The information as to your CPL status, and #2: all weapons purchased in Washington State through a state licensed Firearms dealers (since 1986)....when they access your DL and warrent info.

    T0 most officers (everyone I've met) this information shows you are a "good guy". Never been asked for my paper CPL, never been disarmed,,,even when OC in a vehicle. I don't view my CPL as any different than my DL...yes, it is good if LE can see the status, especially if I just do not happen to have it on my person.

    My only problem is the sales information...I would prefer that records of those transactions did not exist...but as they do exist, I have no problem with LE having access to the information.
    Last edited by hermannr; 11-20-2012 at 08:11 PM.

  3. #3
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766
    Oh, I didn't realize y'all had firearm registration. Curious, given the state's good protections for search and seizure.

    Too bad. Hope y'all can get that cleaned up.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  4. #4
    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Okanogan Highland
    Posts
    2,332
    Quote Originally Posted by golddigger14s View Post
    Found this on seattleguns.net
    http://seattleguns.net/showthread.ph...info-in-a-stop
    "I always thought the police did not know I had a cpl or that I owned firwarms in a stop, well I found out differently today. A good friend of mine is a former SPD and current bellevue PD took me for a ride today. He ran my plate whch brought up the registered owner, me...clicked on my license number which showed my photo, ss#, driving record, etc. Scroll down a little, motorcycle license, CPL #, WTF...CPL... Issue date, exp, issued by kc sheriff, then this shocked me most...A list of every firearm I own, model, serial, where I bought it WTF. I had no idea they had all this info. I still cant believe it."
    Seperate reply...because I missed it in the first on:

    Maybe not many people have had this experience, but, I have a bad back so I no longer keep my wallet in my hip pocket. Because of this, I have had occation (like last Friday) when I have gone to town (20 miles and over 2000' each way) and put on the "wrong" jacket. OOPs, no wallet, no DL, no CPL, no credit cards and no money....

    Well, the money problem I fixed by going to the bank (OC) armed. Now, what would happen if I should have been stopped? I always OC...so, NO DL, no CPL, loaded pistol on my person. IF a LEO had stopped me, if he could not tell that I actually had a valid DL and CPL...I could see a totally different outcome (in the short term), then if he had that information available to him.

    As to the "de facto" "registration" (sales report) of all firearms transaction through a licensed dealer in this state...well, IMHO, taht is not necessary information...the license yes, the sales info, no.
    Last edited by hermannr; 11-20-2012 at 08:22 PM.

  5. #5
    Regular Member compmanio365's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Pierce County, Washington, USA
    Posts
    2,013

    Question

    That doesn't make sense. My understanding has always been that the paperwork filed for background checks on guns purchased are only kept at the shop as a paper copy, where purchased and only handed over if legally demanded by authorities with a court order. How do they get this info from the shop that sells you the firearm? When they call in to do a NICS check, do they tell them all the info via that system? I can see the CPL being visible to LE, but the firearms info shouldn't be available because the shop never tells them specifically what you purchase.

    I also thought there was a voluntary registration form you could fill out, in case your firearms were stolen or the like but it wasn't mandatory.

  6. #6
    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Okanogan Highland
    Posts
    2,332
    Quote Originally Posted by compmanio365 View Post
    That doesn't make sense. My understanding has always been that the paperwork filed for background checks on guns purchased are only kept at the shop as a paper copy, where purchased and only handed over if legally demanded by authorities with a court order. How do they get this info from the shop that sells you the firearm? When they call in to do a NICS check, do they tell them all the info via that system? I can see the CPL being visible to LE, but the firearms info shouldn't be available because the shop never tells them specifically what you purchase.

    I also thought there was a voluntary registration form you could fill out, in case your firearms were stolen or the like but it wasn't mandatory.
    It is not a read "registration"...by law it is a "sales record"..only applies to WA licensed dealers.

  7. #7
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Whatcom County
    Posts
    17,338
    I have been stating for a few years this is the case we have a "de facto" registration in this state, they know all you firearms you bought through a dealer.

    I think their computers even notify them of CPL drivers, watch the cops who have computers and license plate readers as you pass their cars.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  8. #8
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    earth's crust
    Posts
    17,838
    Odd, in my state, the state says that collecting this data in respect to police departments creates a safety risk....

  9. #9
    Campaign Veteran slapmonkay's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Montana
    Posts
    1,267
    Quote Originally Posted by 18 U.S.C. 926 (2) (a)
    No such rule or regulation prescribed after the date of the enactment of the Firearms Owners Protection Act may require that records required to be maintained under this chapter or any portion of the contents of such records, be recorded at or transferred to a facility owned, managed, or controlled by the United States or any State or any political subdivision thereof, nor that any system of registration of firearms, firearms owners, or firearms transactions or disposition be established. Nothing in this section expands or restricts the Secretary's authority to inquire into the disposition of any firearm in the course of a criminal investigation.
    Quote Originally Posted by RCW 9.41.129
    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.129
    The department of licensing may keep copies or records of applications for concealed pistol licenses provided for in RCW 9.41.070, copies or records of applications for alien firearm licenses, copies or records of applications to purchase pistols provided for in RCW 9.41.090, and copies or records of pistol transfers provided for in RCW 9.41.110. The copies and records shall not be disclosed except as provided in RCW 42.56.240(4).
    Quote Originally Posted by RCW 42.56.240
    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=42.56.240

    The following investigative, law enforcement, and crime victim information is exempt from public inspection and copying under this chapter:

    (1) Specific intelligence information and specific investigative records compiled by investigative, law enforcement, and penology agencies, and state agencies vested with the responsibility to discipline members of any profession, the nondisclosure of which is essential to effective law enforcement or for the protection of any person's right to privacy;

    (2) Information revealing the identity of persons who are witnesses to or victims of crime or who file complaints with investigative, law enforcement, or penology agencies, other than the commission, if disclosure would endanger any person's life, physical safety, or property. If at the time a complaint is filed the complainant, victim, or witness indicates a desire for disclosure or nondisclosure, such desire shall govern. However, all complaints filed with the commission about any elected official or candidate for public office must be made in writing and signed by the complainant under oath;

    (3) Any records of investigative reports prepared by any state, county, municipal, or other law enforcement agency pertaining to sex offenses contained in chapter 9A.44 RCW or sexually violent offenses as defined in RCW 71.09.020, which have been transferred to the Washington association of sheriffs and police chiefs for permanent electronic retention and retrieval pursuant to RCW 40.14.070(2)(b);

    (4) License applications under RCW 9.41.070; copies of license applications or information on the applications may be released to law enforcement or corrections agencies;

    (5) Information revealing the identity of child victims of sexual assault who are under age eighteen. Identifying information means the child victim's name, address, location, photograph, and in cases in which the child victim is a relative or stepchild of the alleged perpetrator, identification of the relationship between the child and the alleged perpetrator;

    (6) The statewide gang database referenced in RCW 43.43.762;

    (7) Data from the electronic sales tracking system established in RCW 69.43.165;

    (8) Information submitted to the statewide unified sex offender notification and registration program under RCW 36.28A.040(6) by a person for the purpose of receiving notification regarding a registered sex offender, including the person's name, residential address, and e-mail address; and

    (9) Personally identifying information collected by law enforcement agencies pursuant to local security alarm system programs and vacation crime watch programs. Nothing in this subsection shall be interpreted so as to prohibit the legal owner of a residence or business from accessing information regarding his or her residence or business.
    Posted for cites related.
    Last edited by slapmonkay; 11-20-2012 at 09:00 PM.
    I Am Not A Lawyer, verify all facts presented independently.

    It's called the "American Dream" because you have to be asleep to believe it. - George Carlin

    I carry a spare tire, in case I have a flat. I carry life insurance, in case I die. I carry a gun, in case I need it.

  10. #10
    Campaign Veteran slapmonkay's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Montana
    Posts
    1,267
    It seems to me that RCW 42.56.240(4) only allows the disclosure of CPL license/application information...
    I Am Not A Lawyer, verify all facts presented independently.

    It's called the "American Dream" because you have to be asleep to believe it. - George Carlin

    I carry a spare tire, in case I have a flat. I carry life insurance, in case I die. I carry a gun, in case I need it.

  11. #11
    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Philipsburg, Montana
    Posts
    3,139
    I leave the scanner playing on my laptop during the day as background noise. What a neighborhood we live in. Have a listen. I hear CPL info all the time when a LEO is on approach. Just makes sense to be fore warned. The pivotal point here is the reaction of the LEO to a Legally Armed Citizen, whether concealed or Open Carry.

    http://bhamscanner.kicks-ass.org/
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

  12. #12
    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Federal Way, Washington, USA
    Posts
    5,667
    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie View Post
    I leave the scanner playing on my laptop during the day as background noise. What a neighborhood we live in. Have a listen. I hear CPL info all the time when a LEO is on approach. Just makes sense to be fore warned. The pivotal point here is the reaction of the LEO to a Legally Armed Citizen, whether concealed or Open Carry.

    http://bhamscanner.kicks-ass.org/
    Why does it make sense to be fore warned? It actually makes no sense to me... do gang member's, felons get CPL's?


    Reminds me of a previous quote:

    Wrong! As I said, logically he should assume I'm one of the "good guys" and that therefore I am armed! You are swallowing the propaganda, that as Americans we need a piece of paper to exercise our right to keep and bear arms. You also share the assumption that having a gun means you are probably one of the "bad guys". Being a good citizen means you are armed! You need a fundamental shift in your thinking. It's clear that unless I'm engaged in felonious activity I have a right to carry (With one of the unconstitutional permits) and he doesn't need to know I'm armed. I'm no more dangerous being armed than he is!

    Not showing a LEO my permit does not mean I don't respect him, as I and others have said, my possession of a permit has nothing to do with the stop!
    Live Free or Die!

  13. #13
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Whatcom County
    Posts
    17,338
    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    Why does it make sense to be fore warned? It actually makes no sense to me... do gang member's, felons get CPL's?


    Reminds me of a previous quote:
    Nick I think what John was saying is the forewarning is for us CPL holders to be aware they already know.

    I agree with you that government agents being forewarned makes no sense.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  14. #14
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    in front of my computer, WI
    Posts
    4,426
    Quote Originally Posted by hermannr
    it is good if LE can see the status...
    I have no problem with LE having access to the information.
    I can see how it would be handy if you've forgotten your purse at home, but as a general rule I don't think they need to know. A cc license very rarely has anything to do with why they want to interact with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie
    I hear CPL info all the time when a LEO is on approach. Just makes sense to be fore warned.
    Forewarned of what?
    Knowing that I have a carry license should (if he's thinking) tell Officer Friendly that I'm very unlikely to be any danger.
    Besides, it's been pointed out that the registered owner is not always going to be the driver. The car could be stolen from an anti-rights person, & the criminals are armed & dangerous,
    or it could be registered to a LAC & loaned to a family member who is anti-rights & tries never to look at a firearm.

    I'm no more dangerous being armed than he is!
    Actually, if you go by statistics, LEO are (in general) more dangerous with a gun than are armed citizens.
    They miss their targets more often (which has something to do with training & something to do with the distances they try to shoot at), they harm citizens with no legal backing (Harless et. al.)...

    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner
    watch the cops who have computers and license plate readers as you pass their cars.
    Good reason for a license plate cover, one of those lenses that protects against traffic cameras.
    And if they went on high alert every time they passed someone with a carry license, they'd be out of adrenaline in short order.
    Last edited by MKEgal; 11-20-2012 at 10:14 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by MLK, Jr
    The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort & convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge & controversy.
    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie
    Citizenship is a verb.
    Quote Originally Posted by Proverbs 27:12
    A prudent person foresees the danger ahead and takes precautions.
    The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences.
    Quote Originally Posted by Proverbs 31:17
    She dresses herself with strength and makes her arms strong.

  15. #15
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766
    Quote Originally Posted by hermannr View Post
    It is not a read "registration"...by law it is a "sales record"..only applies to WA licensed dealers.
    Uh-huh. Suuuuure it's a sales record. That's why the police have the data--because they are so uniquely situated to compile economic data on that market segment. Why, any day now the police will come forward with programs designed to assist gun dealers, having taken over the duties of the Small Business Administration and Chamber of Commerce.

    Right.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  16. #16
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Long gone
    Posts
    2,575
    LEOs only know that at some time you purchased a particular firearm they do not know if you still have it or if you simply gave it away as a Christmas present. But I agree it is de-facto registration.

  17. #17
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766
    Ironically, Abe Lincoln, who called The War to Force Involuntary Union putting down a rebellion, supplies us with a wonderful little lesson.

    He asked, "If you call a tail a leg, how many legs does a dog have?" When someone answered, "Five", Lincoln replied, "Four. Calling a tail a leg does not make it a leg." Changing its name does not change its essential nature.

    Calling a registration scheme a sales record does not make it a sales record.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  18. #18
    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    2,227
    Cash FTF FTW!

    And the real goal of the anti-gunners, regarding the 'closing the gun show loophole' is to totally END private transfers - just like in Cal-e-forn-i-a.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    2,227
    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    data in respect to police departments creates a safety risk....
    It sure does create a post-ban seize me list.

    It also creates a rob-me list, once some hacker gets a copy and sells it on some underground Russian website. Name, address, firearms owned: sold to a local gang by the Russian mob. ::knock knock knock:: on your front door.

  20. #20
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Tacoma, Washington, USA
    Posts
    1,327
    Oh, I didn't realize y'all had firearm registration.
    We don't have firearm registration; it's perfectly legal to own firearms that the state has no record of us owning.

    Compmanio365, don't confuse the federal [should not exist, fwiw] background check with the state purchase record.

  21. #21
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766
    Quote Originally Posted by kparker View Post
    We don't have firearm registration; it's perfectly legal to own firearms that the state has no record of us owning.
    Uh-huh.

    "We're not registering all the firearms. Just the one's we can get away with. So, its not really registration."

    You can almost hear the gun-grabber conversation:

    GG1 "No, no. We can't possibly require every gun to be registered. It would cause a real uproar. Plus, it would be too obvious."

    GG2 "And, we'd never be able to enforce it. Those sneaky gun [bleep]ards sell and trade stuff privately all the time."

    GG3 "Well, there must be something we can do!"

    GG1 "I know. We can register just the one's sold through licensed dealers! Oh, ho, ho! And, just so we can claim it isn't registration, we'll call it a Sales Record."

    GG2 [evil grin] "I like it!"
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  22. #22
    Regular Member amzbrady's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Marysville, Washington, USA
    Posts
    3,522
    This is why I could never understand someone telling an officer he/she is armed in a traffic stop. It seems an cop worth their salt would already know you are able to be armed and should just assume you are.
    If you voted for Obama to prove you are not a racist...
    what will you do now to prove you are not stupid?

    "The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of "liberalism," they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." - Norman Thomas

    "They who can who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve niether liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin

  23. #23
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766
    Quote Originally Posted by amzbrady View Post
    This is why I could never understand someone telling an officer he/she is armed in a traffic stop. It seems an cop worth their salt would already know you are able to be armed and should just assume you are.
    Oh, didn't you know? The logic goes something like this.


    All cops are trained to assume all traffic stop-ees might be armed and dangerous. This is why you see some standing at the door pillar.

    But, not all drivers are armed-and-dangerous.

    So, cops tend to forget that a cop can get shot every once in a great while.

    So, some states pass laws requiring informing the cop to remind those cops who forget and don't stand at the door pillar as per training and best practices.

    And, police have the gun info tied to driver's license records so the cop is reminded when he runs the info in his computer.

    And, some gun-rights supporters advocate telling cops so they are reminded of something they already know.

    And, some gun carriers think its courteous to remind a cop of something he's supposed to already know.

    And, some cops have spun that into a moral obliglation to tell the cop so he is reminded he's supposed to be already assuming it.


    So, that's all its about. Reminding cops of something they already know because they forget. And, they forget because its not true that all drivers are armed and dangerous. In fact, way, way more are not armed and dangerous.

    So, we're just Post-It Note reminders for cops.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Wolfebane's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Bellingham, WA
    Posts
    113
    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie View Post
    I leave the scanner playing on my laptop during the day as background noise. What a neighborhood we live in. Have a listen. I hear CPL info all the time when a LEO is on approach. Just makes sense to be fore warned. The pivotal point here is the reaction of the LEO to a Legally Armed Citizen, whether concealed or Open Carry.

    http://bhamscanner.kicks-ass.org/
    I used to listen to this all the time when I was attending WWU, but since I graduate I don't because, well, I don't live there anymore. I tried to find one for Oak Harbor PD or Island County related but my net-fu wasn't very good. Anyone know of one for Island County/Oak Harbor?

  25. #25
    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Greater Eastside Washington
    Posts
    4,690
    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Oh, didn't you know? The logic goes something like this.


    All cops are trained to assume all traffic stop-ees might be armed and dangerous. This is why you see some standing at the door pillar.

    But, not all drivers are armed-and-dangerous.

    So, cops tend to forget that a cop can get shot every once in a great while.

    So, some states pass laws requiring informing the cop to remind those cops who forget and don't stand at the door pillar as per training and best practices.

    And, police have the gun info tied to driver's license records so the cop is reminded when he runs the info in his computer.

    And, some gun-rights supporters advocate telling cops so they are reminded of something they already know.

    And, some gun carriers think its courteous to remind a cop of something he's supposed to already know.

    And, some cops have spun that into a moral obliglation to tell the cop so he is reminded he's supposed to be already assuming it.


    So, that's all its about. Reminding cops of something they already know because they forget. And, they forget because its not true that all drivers are armed and dangerous. In fact, way, way more are not armed and dangerous.

    So, we're just Post-It Note reminders for cops.
    That is very similar to the conversation had about the Socialist Security and Income tax laws.
    CC1 (congress critter): Social Security has to be legally voluntary, so how to we force people to pay it?
    CC2: We'll rename a couple of sections and make it look like the income tax to confuse people.
    CC3: Yeah, then we'll have the IRS do a bait and switch when they don't want to participate.
    CC1: Bait and switch how?
    CC3: Simple put it in IRS records that he/she didn't pay the income tax (payment is required on payments to nonresident aliens) and then tell the jury that the social security tax is the income tax. People are stupid and will convict their fellow citizens, it's ingenious, plus it will keep people so confused that they will never know what they are paying unless they read the law.
    CC2: Yeah, we'll make the law look supper complex and sell news stories so most never read it and it will be worded in such away that unless you understand that it's voluntary, you'll try to force others to comply with it simply to have a job.


    Now see how similar the conversations were?

    So the good news is that the police record goes to crap if you've gone through mostly private sales.
    I believe that I've only purchased 5 guns from a licensed dealer here in Washington.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •