Info LEO's have.

golddigger14s · Nov 20, 2012

Found this on seattleguns.net
http://seattleguns.net/showthread.p...e-my-CPL-and-firearm-ownership-info-in-a-stop
"I always thought the police did not know I had a cpl or that I owned firwarms in a stop, well I found out differently today. A good friend of mine is a former SPD and current bellevue PD took me for a ride today. He ran my plate whch brought up the registered owner, me...clicked on my license number which showed my photo, ss#, driving record, etc. Scroll down a little, motorcycle license, CPL #, WTF...CPL... Issue date, exp, issued by kc sheriff, then this shocked me most...A list of every firearm I own, model, serial, where I bought it WTF. I had no idea they had all this info. I still cant believe it."

hermannr · Nov 20, 2012

golddigger14s said:
Found this on seattleguns.net
http://seattleguns.net/showthread.p...e-my-CPL-and-firearm-ownership-info-in-a-stop
"I always thought the police did not know I had a cpl or that I owned firwarms in a stop, well I found out differently today. A good friend of mine is a former SPD and current bellevue PD took me for a ride today. He ran my plate whch brought up the registered owner, me...clicked on my license number which showed my photo, ss#, driving record, etc. Scroll down a little, motorcycle license, CPL #, WTF...CPL... Issue date, exp, issued by kc sheriff, then this shocked me most...A list of every firearm I own, model, serial, where I bought it WTF. I had no idea they had all this info. I still cant believe it."

If you read RCW 9.41 carefully you will see that LE can access: #1: The information as to your CPL status, and #2: all weapons purchased in Washington State through a state licensed Firearms dealers (since 1986)....when they access your DL and warrent info.

T0 most officers (everyone I've met) this information shows you are a "good guy". Never been asked for my paper CPL, never been disarmed,,,even when OC in a vehicle. I don't view my CPL as any different than my DL...yes, it is good if LE can see the status, especially if I just do not happen to have it on my person.

My only problem is the sales information...I would prefer that records of those transactions did not exist...but as they do exist, I have no problem with LE having access to the information.

Citizen · Nov 20, 2012

Oh, I didn't realize y'all had firearm registration. Curious, given the state's good protections for search and seizure.

Too bad. Hope y'all can get that cleaned up.

hermannr · Nov 20, 2012

golddigger14s said:
Found this on seattleguns.net
http://seattleguns.net/showthread.p...e-my-CPL-and-firearm-ownership-info-in-a-stop
"I always thought the police did not know I had a cpl or that I owned firwarms in a stop, well I found out differently today. A good friend of mine is a former SPD and current bellevue PD took me for a ride today. He ran my plate whch brought up the registered owner, me...clicked on my license number which showed my photo, ss#, driving record, etc. Scroll down a little, motorcycle license, CPL #, WTF...CPL... Issue date, exp, issued by kc sheriff, then this shocked me most...A list of every firearm I own, model, serial, where I bought it WTF. I had no idea they had all this info. I still cant believe it."

Seperate reply...because I missed it in the first on:

Maybe not many people have had this experience, but, I have a bad back so I no longer keep my wallet in my hip pocket. Because of this, I have had occation (like last Friday) when I have gone to town (20 miles and over 2000' each way) and put on the "wrong" jacket. OOPs, no wallet, no DL, no CPL, no credit cards and no money....

Well, the money problem I fixed by going to the bank (OC) armed. Now, what would happen if I should have been stopped? I always OC...so, NO DL, no CPL, loaded pistol on my person. IF a LEO had stopped me, if he could not tell that I actually had a valid DL and CPL...I could see a totally different outcome (in the short term), then if he had that information available to him.

As to the "de facto" "registration" (sales report) of all firearms transaction through a licensed dealer in this state...well, IMHO, taht is not necessary information...the license yes, the sales info, no.

compmanio365 · Nov 20, 2012

That doesn't make sense. My understanding has always been that the paperwork filed for background checks on guns purchased are only kept at the shop as a paper copy, where purchased and only handed over if legally demanded by authorities with a court order. How do they get this info from the shop that sells you the firearm? When they call in to do a NICS check, do they tell them all the info via that system? I can see the CPL being visible to LE, but the firearms info shouldn't be available because the shop never tells them specifically what you purchase.

I also thought there was a voluntary registration form you could fill out, in case your firearms were stolen or the like but it wasn't mandatory.

hermannr · Nov 20, 2012

compmanio365 said:
That doesn't make sense. My understanding has always been that the paperwork filed for background checks on guns purchased are only kept at the shop as a paper copy, where purchased and only handed over if legally demanded by authorities with a court order. How do they get this info from the shop that sells you the firearm? When they call in to do a NICS check, do they tell them all the info via that system? I can see the CPL being visible to LE, but the firearms info shouldn't be available because the shop never tells them specifically what you purchase.

I also thought there was a voluntary registration form you could fill out, in case your firearms were stolen or the like but it wasn't mandatory.

It is not a read "registration"...by law it is a "sales record"..only applies to WA licensed dealers.

sudden valley gunner · Nov 20, 2012

I have been stating for a few years this is the case we have a "de facto" registration in this state, they know all you firearms you bought through a dealer.

I think their computers even notify them of CPL drivers, watch the cops who have computers and license plate readers as you pass their cars.

davidmcbeth · Nov 20, 2012

Odd, in my state, the state says that collecting this data in respect to police departments creates a safety risk....

slapmonkay · Nov 20, 2012

18 U.S.C. 926 (2) (a) said:
No such rule or regulation prescribed after the date of the enactment of the Firearms Owners Protection Act may require that records required to be maintained under this chapter or any portion of the contents of such records, be recorded at or transferred to a facility owned, managed, or controlled by the United States or any State or any political subdivision thereof, nor that any system of registration of firearms, firearms owners, or firearms transactions or disposition be established. Nothing in this section expands or restricts the Secretary's authority to inquire into the disposition of any firearm in the course of a criminal investigation.

RCW 9.41.129 said:
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.129
The department of licensing may keep copies or records of applications for concealed pistol licenses provided for in RCW 9.41.070, copies or records of applications for alien firearm licenses, copies or records of applications to purchase pistols provided for in RCW 9.41.090, and copies or records of pistol transfers provided for in RCW 9.41.110. The copies and records shall not be disclosed except as provided in RCW 42.56.240(4).

RCW 42.56.240 said:
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=42.56.240

The following investigative, law enforcement, and crime victim information is exempt from public inspection and copying under this chapter:

(1) Specific intelligence information and specific investigative records compiled by investigative, law enforcement, and penology agencies, and state agencies vested with the responsibility to discipline members of any profession, the nondisclosure of which is essential to effective law enforcement or for the protection of any person's right to privacy;

(2) Information revealing the identity of persons who are witnesses to or victims of crime or who file complaints with investigative, law enforcement, or penology agencies, other than the commission, if disclosure would endanger any person's life, physical safety, or property. If at the time a complaint is filed the complainant, victim, or witness indicates a desire for disclosure or nondisclosure, such desire shall govern. However, all complaints filed with the commission about any elected official or candidate for public office must be made in writing and signed by the complainant under oath;

(3) Any records of investigative reports prepared by any state, county, municipal, or other law enforcement agency pertaining to sex offenses contained in chapter 9A.44 RCW or sexually violent offenses as defined in RCW 71.09.020, which have been transferred to the Washington association of sheriffs and police chiefs for permanent electronic retention and retrieval pursuant to RCW 40.14.070(2)(b);

(4) License applications under RCW 9.41.070; copies of license applications or information on the applications may be released to law enforcement or corrections agencies;

(5) Information revealing the identity of child victims of sexual assault who are under age eighteen. Identifying information means the child victim's name, address, location, photograph, and in cases in which the child victim is a relative or stepchild of the alleged perpetrator, identification of the relationship between the child and the alleged perpetrator;

(6) The statewide gang database referenced in RCW 43.43.762;

(7) Data from the electronic sales tracking system established in RCW 69.43.165;

(8) Information submitted to the statewide unified sex offender notification and registration program under RCW 36.28A.040(6) by a person for the purpose of receiving notification regarding a registered sex offender, including the person's name, residential address, and e-mail address; and

(9) Personally identifying information collected by law enforcement agencies pursuant to local security alarm system programs and vacation crime watch programs. Nothing in this subsection shall be interpreted so as to prohibit the legal owner of a residence or business from accessing information regarding his or her residence or business.

Posted for cites related.

slapmonkay · Nov 20, 2012

It seems to me that RCW 42.56.240(4) only allows the disclosure of CPL license/application information...

MSG Laigaie · Nov 20, 2012

I leave the scanner playing on my laptop during the day as background noise. What a neighborhood we live in. Have a listen. I hear CPL info all the time when a LEO is on approach. Just makes sense to be fore warned. The pivotal point here is the reaction of the LEO to a Legally Armed Citizen, whether concealed or Open Carry.

http://bhamscanner.kicks-ass.org/

gogodawgs · Nov 20, 2012

MSG Laigaie said:
I leave the scanner playing on my laptop during the day as background noise. What a neighborhood we live in. Have a listen. I hear CPL info all the time when a LEO is on approach. Just makes sense to be fore warned. The pivotal point here is the reaction of the LEO to a Legally Armed Citizen, whether concealed or Open Carry.

http://bhamscanner.kicks-ass.org/

Why does it make sense to be fore warned? It actually makes no sense to me... do gang member's, felons get CPL's?

Reminds me of a previous quote:

Wrong! As I said, logically he should assume I'm one of the "good guys" and that therefore I am armed! You are swallowing the propaganda, that as Americans we need a piece of paper to exercise our right to keep and bear arms. You also share the assumption that having a gun means you are probably one of the "bad guys". Being a good citizen means you are armed! You need a fundamental shift in your thinking. It's clear that unless I'm engaged in felonious activity I have a right to carry (With one of the unconstitutional permits) and he doesn't need to know I'm armed. I'm no more dangerous being armed than he is!

Not showing a LEO my permit does not mean I don't respect him, as I and others have said, my possession of a permit has nothing to do with the stop!

sudden valley gunner · Nov 20, 2012

gogodawgs said:
Why does it make sense to be fore warned? It actually makes no sense to me... do gang member's, felons get CPL's?

Reminds me of a previous quote:

Nick I think what John was saying is the forewarning is for us CPL holders to be aware they already know.

I agree with you that government agents being forewarned makes no sense.

MKEgal · Nov 20, 2012

hermannr said:
it is good if LE can see the status...
I have no problem with LE having access to the information.

I can see how it would be handy if you've forgotten your purse at home, but as a general rule I don't think they need to know. A cc license very rarely has anything to do with why they want to interact with you.

MSG Laigaie said:
I hear CPL info all the time when a LEO is on approach. Just makes sense to be fore warned.

Forewarned of what?
Knowing that I have a carry license should (if he's thinking) tell Officer Friendly that I'm very unlikely to be any danger.
Besides, it's been pointed out that the registered owner is not always going to be the driver. The car could be stolen from an anti-rights person, & the criminals are armed & dangerous,
or it could be registered to a LAC & loaned to a family member who is anti-rights & tries never to look at a firearm.

I'm no more dangerous being armed than he is!

Actually, if you go by statistics, LEO are (in general) more dangerous with a gun than are armed citizens.
They miss their targets more often (which has something to do with training & something to do with the distances they try to shoot at), they harm citizens with no legal backing (Harless et. al.)...

sudden valley gunner said:
watch the cops who have computers and license plate readers as you pass their cars.

Good reason for a license plate cover, one of those lenses that protects against traffic cameras.
And if they went on high alert every time they passed someone with a carry license, they'd be out of adrenaline in short order.

Citizen · Nov 20, 2012

hermannr said:
It is not a read "registration"...by law it is a "sales record"..only applies to WA licensed dealers.

Uh-huh. Suuuuure it's a sales record. That's why the police have the data--because they are so uniquely situated to compile economic data on that market segment. Why, any day now the police will come forward with programs designed to assist gun dealers, having taken over the duties of the Small Business Administration and Chamber of Commerce.

Right.

Jeff Hayes · Nov 20, 2012

LEOs only know that at some time you purchased a particular firearm they do not know if you still have it or if you simply gave it away as a Christmas present. But I agree it is de-facto registration.

Citizen · Nov 20, 2012

Ironically, Abe Lincoln, who called The War to Force Involuntary Union putting down a rebellion, supplies us with a wonderful little lesson.

He asked, "If you call a tail a leg, how many legs does a dog have?" When someone answered, "Five", Lincoln replied, "Four. Calling a tail a leg does not make it a leg." Changing its name does not change its essential nature.

Calling a registration scheme a sales record does not make it a sales record.

Dave_pro2a · Nov 20, 2012

Cash FTF FTW!

And the real goal of the anti-gunners, regarding the 'closing the gun show loophole' is to totally END private transfers - just like in Cal-e-forn-i-a.

Dave_pro2a · Nov 20, 2012

davidmcbeth said:
data in respect to police departments creates a safety risk....

It sure does create a post-ban seize me list.

It also creates a rob-me list, once some hacker gets a copy and sells it on some underground Russian website. Name, address, firearms owned: sold to a local gang by the Russian mob. ::knock knock knock:: on your front door.

kparker · Nov 20, 2012

Oh, I didn't realize y'all had firearm registration.

We don't have firearm registration; it's perfectly legal to own firearms that the state has no record of us owning.

Compmanio365, don't confuse the federal [should not exist, fwiw] background check with the state purchase record.

Info LEO's have.

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