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Thread: Are the attitudes of LEOs changing towards Open Carriers?

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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    Are the attitudes of LEOs changing towards Open Carriers?

    http://www.policeone.com/investigati...er-open-carry/

    First the link.
    I watched the video first to get the full perspective of the incident. Then I went to the comments, expecting the usual rants against OCers and why don't you cover if you have a permit BS. I was pleasantly surprised to see them policing their own. Are the times changing? Are LEOs who support the Law becoming the norm? I think "good works", on both sides, is becoming successful in improving attitudes.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    Regular Member WOD's Avatar
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    I don't think their attitude towards open carriers is changing, I think they're finally getting the message from the higher ups, to stop getting their departments sued. The ones who were posting favorably to any LAC carrying or possessing firearms, are just of the same mindset that we are. Then you had the MY SAFETY guys, and the opinion enforcers, jumping in, and those two classes are the problem. I was happy to see that there were quite a few posts that said "as officers we should know the laws we're able to enforce."
    Be safe, be prepared, and carry on!

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    Regular Member Batousaii's Avatar
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    I would think so..

    - Somthing to concider too, as cutbacks in LE and our resession continue, the Leo numbers decrease, crimials become more common place, who are the Leo going to look towards to "keep their back" if sh!t goes south? - likely the good Leo is realising it will be the common good citizen who is armed that will be rushing in where libies fear to tread to back them up... because their other budies will be minutes away when seconds count. Keeping the common armed citizen at odds with them is not in their best interest, and I believe this is finally being realised, at least by some of the good ones.
    - of course i might be lucky, and it might just be that the ones i know are pro-OC and pro-good citizen too.

    (Note: i did not read link, just replying to the poster himself).
    Last edited by Batousaii; 11-21-2012 at 04:29 PM.
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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    The first question is, "What is your Social Security Number?"

    What law requires a citizen to even HAVE a SSN in the first place?

    Edit...

    WOW theses cops are idiots!

    They need their asses sued off.
    Last edited by Freedom1Man; 11-21-2012 at 02:02 PM.
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    Why talk to them much less argue with them? Why did he tell them the make, model and caliber of his pistol? Simply shut up except to ask if you are free to go or if you are being detained.

    It was hilarious that 5 minutes into it the Cops tell him to put his hands on his head.

    The Cop committed battery I would have complained about being touched to emphasize the officers opinion.

    Looks like it turned out well for him.

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    Regular Member aa1911's Avatar
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    Oh no, the hollow point bullet scare.... cause if he only had FMJ's, those are TOTALLY safe, not deadly at all. Just a 165gn chunk of lead and copper going 1100 fps, nothing to worry about...

    The more videos like that I see, the more I read and learn on here. I've yet to have any negative LE encounters but I want to be armed with more than my sidearms when I do.

    Love how the officer goes into the 'tactical' reasons why he shouldn't OC. Thanks dude...

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Batousaii View Post
    - Somthing to concider too, as cutbacks in LE and our resession continue, the Leo numbers decrease, crimials become more common place, who are the Leo going to look towards to "keep their back" if sh!t goes south? - likely the good Leo is realising it will be the common good citizen who is armed that will be rushing in where libies fear to tread to back them up... because their other budies will be minutes away when seconds count. Keeping the common armed citizen at odds with them is not in their best interest, and I believe this is finally being realised, at least by some of the good ones.
    - of course i might be lucky, and it might just be that the ones i know are pro-OC and pro-good citizen too.

    (Note: i did not read link, just replying to the poster himself).
    Hopefully people will use some common sense before they "come running up to help a LEO with a gun in their hand".
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    Hopefully people will use some common sense before they "come running up to help a LEO with a gun in their hand".
    A big + 1 on that.

    Running up to a LEO with a gun in hand in a SHTF situation could get you shot by the LEO you are attempting to help not to mention the very high chance of his LEO buddies that are right behind you responding to his/her call for help shooting you and then asking questions.
    Last edited by Jeff Hayes; 11-21-2012 at 04:53 PM.

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    I'd seen the multi-page PAFOA discussion of this video,
    and the several-page discussion here,
    but it's interesting to see LEO perspective.
    Some are decent, others not so much.
    I learned long time ago when I butted heads with a lawyer and lost. Now I learn the laws and refuse to be baited. With computers in our vehicles and smart phones, no reason not to know the law.
    I'm curious why s/he hadn't learned them in the first place. Isn't that part of the job description?

    Common sense would dictate that the overwhelming majority of permit holders ARE NOT a danger to us. We do not need to perpetuate [the] notion that everyone who carries a gun, who is not a police officer, wants to shoot someone. In many states the training received by these holders, exceed that of most police officers
    Your safety, my safety, our safety, does NOT trump the Constitution of the United States of America and the Rights it affords to Citizens of this Nation. Don't like it, GET A DIFFERENT JOB.
    I like this one:
    this officer needs to go sell flowers. I have made my share of mistakes on the street but this is bad and it only gets worse when the officer realizes he is in the wrong.
    the officers should be made to sit through the firearms revised code portion of the local police academy with all the other newbies
    Then there are the wrong-headed people:
    If I contact a person for any reason and he has immediate access to a deadly weapon, that weapon is going to be in my hands until the end of the contact, period. It's not about ignorance of the law or whether the person has the right to carry, but about MY SAFETY


    i have ALWAYS been against open carry. this is just one reason why it's a bad idea
    Bad/ignorant cops are a reason why I shouldn't worship, meet with friends, vote, or exercise any other Constitutionally-protected civil right?

    get informed and educated regarding the carry laws in your area. It will make it look allot less stupid and as we all know many citizens out there "bait" us on purpose. This video and others are proof of that.
    How exactly is it 'baiting' to walk to the barbershop for a haircut?

    Why push the officer. IF an officer would have asked me to cover it up then I would "just cooperate to graduate." There was no need to start the confrontation in the first place
    The guy filming was clearly baiting LEOs by open carrying when he had a valid CCW permit... The citizen needs to just cover it up and quit needlessly challenging LEOs
    Confrontation & challenge? That would be done by the cops, right? Maybe those posters don't realize that it was the officers who created the problem by stopping the citizen who was going about his lawful business, not bothering anyone.
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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post

    How exactly is it 'baiting' to walk to the barbershop for a haircut?
    It's not. Just like it's not baiting when I exercise any other fundamental right I have that others oppose.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member Batousaii's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    Hopefully people will use some common sense before they "come running up to help a LEO with a gun in their hand".
    - Yes i hope so too... proper aproach is paramount. I am mostly saying, it could come to that eventually, where we dont really have a choice. Things are rocky but survivable today, but if we keep going along this trend of failing government, recession / depression, and cutting infrastructure to shreds, then at sompoint the we will be left to fend for our selves. I am really not the conspiracy type, but it the future is not going in a good direction currently. Criminals seem to have too much room to breath, and the cops are out numbered and out gunned. "We the People" may have to be more asertive in the near future if a course correction on this path to self consumption is not changed. It's a sad state of affairs, and
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    Quote Originally Posted by WOD View Post
    I don't think their attitude towards open carriers is changing, I think they're finally getting the message from the higher ups, to stop getting their departments sued. "
    You idiots are costing us the ability for us to buy our toys .... stop it!

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    Regular Member Difdi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orphan View Post
    A big + 1 on that.

    Running up to a LEO with a gun in hand in a SHTF situation could get you shot by the LEO you are attempting to help not to mention the very high chance of his LEO buddies that are right behind you responding to his/her call for help shooting you and then asking questions.
    On the one hand, I can understand the tendency to see only enemies when the SHTF. On the other hand, assuming everyone around you is hostile and acting accordingly in absence of any evidence isn't justifiable.

    To be honest, if I saw a friend of mine running to help a cop and get gunned down, my own natural response would be to put two rounds into the shooter. If someone in uniform shot someone I know in those circumstances, my first thought would be "police impersonator, take him down."
    Last edited by Difdi; 11-23-2012 at 03:06 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    The first question is, "What is your Social Security Number?"

    What law requires a citizen to even HAVE a SSN in the first place?

    Edit...

    WOW theses cops are idiots!

    They need their asses sued off.
    I think there are federal privacy laws about SSNs. I have this vague recollection that a government agency has to disclose things like what statutory authority allows them to ask for the SSN, how it will be used, and whether its disclosure is voluntary or mandatory.


    ETA: Hey! I was right. Scroll down to section 3 here: https://www.privacyrights.org/fs/fs10-ssn.htm
    Last edited by Citizen; 11-23-2012 at 05:26 AM.
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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    I think there are federal privacy laws about SSNs. I have this vague recollection that a government agency has to disclose things like what statutory authority allows them to ask for the SSN, how it will be used, and whether its disclosure is voluntary or mandatory.


    ETA: Hey! I was right. Scroll down to section 3 here: https://www.privacyrights.org/fs/fs10-ssn.htm
    My point is that you're not required to even HAVE on in the first place.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Difdi View Post
    On the one hand, I can understand the tendency to see only enemies when the SHTF. On the other hand, assuming everyone around you is hostile and acting accordingly in absence of any evidence isn't justifiable.

    To be honest, if I saw a friend of mine running to help a cop and get gunned down, my own natural response would be to put two rounds into the shooter. If someone in uniform shot someone I know in those circumstances, my first thought would be "police impersonator, take him down."
    You can have my six any day. Having a gun in your hand would make a big difference on if you were perceived as a threat or as help especially for the LEOs that are just rolling up to a chaotic scene.

    I jumped in the middle of a fight that a Cop was loosing badly and ended up on the ground cuffed when his buddies showed up a minute or two later. I will never help a Cop again unless it is a life or death situation but that stems from what happened after they knew I was a good guy and had helped the down officer not from being cuffed and put on the ground.
    Last edited by Jeff Hayes; 11-23-2012 at 09:42 AM.

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    I think there are federal privacy laws about SSNs. I have this vague recollection that a government agency has to disclose things like what statutory authority allows them to ask for the SSN, how it will be used, and whether its disclosure is voluntary or mandatory.


    ETA: Hey! I was right. Scroll down to section 3 here: https://www.privacyrights.org/fs/fs10-ssn.htm
    You are right but sometimes it's a matter of giving up the number and having ID verified immediately rather than sitting in a Police Station while your identity is verified by other means.

    The use of the SSN has infiltrated just about all levels of Government for ID even though it was originally prohibited. Check out he list of where it can be used:

    http://ssa-custhelp.ssa.gov/app/answ...ecurity-number

    Oneof them people often run across is: "States to administer any tax, general public assistance, motor vehicle or drivers license law within its jurisdiction;"


    More likely than not you will have a choice if there is a question of ID when interacting with a LEO. Give up your SSN or sit in a holding cell until your ID is verified.

    For people who are often mistaken for others (in the NICS Records), giving a SSN on the 4473 can often make the difference between a quick purchase or a delayed one.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orphan View Post
    You can have my six any day. Having a gun in your hand would make a big difference on if you were perceived as a threat or as help especially for the LEOs that are just rolling up to a chaotic scene.

    I jumped in the middle of a fight that a Cop was loosing badly and ended up on the ground cuffed when his buddies showed up a minute or two later. I will never help a Cop again unless it is a life or death situation but that stems from what happened after they knew I was a good guy and had helped the down officer not from being cuffed and put on the ground.
    Isn't that the thing...I often have less problem with the misunderstanding and the stuffed and cuffed , it's the Balderdash they continue with after the incident.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

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    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member DocWalker's Avatar
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    You are right but sometimes it's a matter of giving up the number and having ID verified immediately rather than sitting in a Police Station while your identity is verified by other means.

    The use of the SSN has infiltrated just about all levels of Government for ID even though it was originally prohibited. Check out he list of where it can be used:

    http://ssa-custhelp.ssa.gov/app/answ...ecurity-number

    Oneof them people often run across is: "States to administer any tax, general public assistance, motor vehicle or drivers license law within its jurisdiction;"


    More likely than not you will have a choice if there is a question of ID when interacting with a LEO. Give up your SSN or sit in a holding cell until your ID is verified.

    For people who are often mistaken for others (in the NICS Records), giving a SSN on the 4473 can often make the difference between a quick purchase or a delayed one.
    Yes but sitting in a cell for a few hours can make you a weathy person. Once you get done suing the department, city, and others for crushing your rights.

  20. #20
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocWalker View Post
    Yes but sitting in a cell for a few hours can make you a weathy person. Once you get done suing the department, city, and others for crushing your rights.
    Please cite a case where someone who refused to provide ID, was then detained until their ID was verified, and became wealthy? I'm only talking about instances where providing ID would be required by statute, not just a LEO walking up to you and demanding it.
    Last edited by amlevin; 11-24-2012 at 08:21 AM.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    You are right but sometimes it's a matter of giving up the number and having ID verified immediately rather than sitting in a Police Station while your identity is verified by other means.

    The use of the SSN has infiltrated just about all levels of Government for ID even though it was originally prohibited. Check out he list of where it can be used:

    http://ssa-custhelp.ssa.gov/app/answ...ecurity-number

    Oneof them people often run across is: "States to administer any tax, general public assistance, motor vehicle or drivers license law within its jurisdiction;"


    More likely than not you will have a choice if there is a question of ID when interacting with a LEO. Give up your SSN or sit in a holding cell until your ID is verified.

    For people who are often mistaken for others (in the NICS Records), giving a SSN on the 4473 can often make the difference between a quick purchase or a delayed one.
    Again the statement I am making is this. There is no law that requires a citizen to have a SSN in the first place. They are NOT required to be able to live and work within the states of the union. The only ones who are required to be issued a number are those who WANT a SSN and a best effort will be given to issue a SSN to all aliens upon lawful entry to the country.

    So again, the cops had no business asking for a SSN. THAT is the source of a large pay out if the cop arrests them for not providing a SSN and locks them up for a time to "verify ID" simply for not providing a SSN. Now if you bother to look at the laws around the creation of the SS program. You will find that the number was not to be used as ID.

    However the IRS and congress has allowed the misuse of the number for so long that it's become a de facto ID number. There is zero lawful authority for the government to have created the program in the first place except that it was created as a treaty with socialist countries and was so the citizens of other countries could still gain a socialist retirement benefit while working in the USofA IF the company they were working at wanted to support socialism.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Take a look at this

    I thought this comment was interesting on the police1 board that MSG posted

    Quote Originally Posted by brokenarrow34 (policeone.com)
    To those of you who are wishing suits on these guys, shame on you. You're a bunch of ********, suggesting that the ACLU should be involved. The thin blue line is fading because of people like you. Yes, they clearly aren't right here, but that isn't the point that I'm arguing. How many times have you been wrong and not gotten sued and were lucky because of it?

    Its sad that we still have cops on the street that are as uneducated about a topic as hot as open carry, but still, you're hoping they get sued? WOW.
    It must be bad when cops are accusing other cops of hurting them because the other cops are simply advocating knowing and staying within the law...
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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    I thought this comment was interesting on the police1 board that MSG posted
    It must be bad when cops are accusing other cops of hurting them because the other cops are simply advocating knowing and staying within the law...
    It must be good when cops are accusing other cops of hurting them because the other cops are not simply advocating knowing and staying within the law..

    That was my point. The dinosaurs, and you know who they are, are fading away. The new troops are not believing the cr@p and following the law. The times they are a changing, my friends. And aren't you glad to be able to see the beginning of the change.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

  24. #24
    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie View Post
    It must be good when cops are accusing other cops of hurting them because the other cops are not simply advocating knowing and staying within the law..

    That was my point. The dinosaurs, and you know who they are, are fading away. The new troops are not believing the cr@p and following the law. The times they are a changing, my friends. And aren't you glad to be able to see the beginning of the change.
    Well I think it's great. my problem here is that, I could completely understand the level of police encounters and questionable detentions back when open carry was still a niche movement and when activists began pushing it mainstream in the 2000s, but now with the years of advocacy and encounters, departments where OC is legal should not still be having these issues. it should be well known what you can and can't do as far as responding to an MWAG or an open carry contact.

    I think it's good really, I mean people complain about police now, but I think our police forces are more constitutional then ever. My grandfather is old enough to remember when he was growing up Misdemeanors were prosecuted with a beating at the end of a wooden straight baton, this was widely ignored if not tacitly encouraged by police superiors. but in giant increments, starting with the televised footage of innocent blacks just gathering to demand the rights they deserved as citizens, being beaten or shot or having dogs cut loose on them, I think that started a level of reforms, and then in the 70s with Serpico another level of reforms begans, and then in the 90s with the first real "portable" video equipment available to the average citizen now police officers were being taped, and with the advent of the same VHS based cameras in the police cruisers, accountability to the public has only increased, and with the better pay and more professional training drawing educated younger people who I believe are very into civil rights and equal protection, I think we're seeing the next big wave of reform and self policing in the ranks.

    I think it's a wonderful thing to read the comments on policeone to see just how many officers posting seem to be friendly to our side and growing acceptance of the open carry movement, becuase the open carry movement isn't just about the 2A, it's also about the 4A and 5A and the state constitutions as well.

    So I'm hopeful that things will only get better from here. police corruption will never disappear really because humans are not perfect, but I think in the not too distant future we'll have an era in which effective policing and respect for constitutional rights co-exist in harmony and the majority of the problems will be far behind us.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    Well I think it's great. my problem here is that, I could completely understand the level of police encounters and questionable detentions back when open carry was still a niche movement and when activists began pushing it mainstream in the 2000s, but now with the years of advocacy and encounters, departments where OC is legal should not still be having these issues. it should be well known what you can and can't do as far as responding to an MWAG or an open carry contact.

    I think it's good really, I mean people complain about police now, but I think our police forces are more constitutional then ever. My grandfather is old enough to remember when he was growing up Misdemeanors were prosecuted with a beating at the end of a wooden straight baton, this was widely ignored if not tacitly encouraged by police superiors. but in giant increments, starting with the televised footage of innocent blacks just gathering to demand the rights they deserved as citizens, being beaten or shot or having dogs cut loose on them, I think that started a level of reforms, and then in the 70s with Serpico another level of reforms begans, and then in the 90s with the first real "portable" video equipment available to the average citizen now police officers were being taped, and with the advent of the same VHS based cameras in the police cruisers, accountability to the public has only increased, and with the better pay and more professional training drawing educated younger people who I believe are very into civil rights and equal protection, I think we're seeing the next big wave of reform and self policing in the ranks.

    I think it's a wonderful thing to read the comments on policeone to see just how many officers posting seem to be friendly to our side and growing acceptance of the open carry movement, becuase the open carry movement isn't just about the 2A, it's also about the 4A and 5A and the state constitutions as well.


    So I'm hopeful that things will only get better from here. police corruption will never disappear really because humans are not perfect, but I think in the not too distant future we'll have an era in which effective policing and respect for constitutional rights co-exist in harmony and the majority of the problems will be far behind us.
    "Somewhere, Over the rainbow....."

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