Are the attitudes of LEOs changing towards Open Carriers?

Freedom1Man · Nov 24, 2012

amlevin said:
You are right but sometimes it's a matter of giving up the number and having ID verified immediately rather than sitting in a Police Station while your identity is verified by other means.

The use of the SSN has infiltrated just about all levels of Government for ID even though it was originally prohibited. Check out he list of where it can be used:

http://ssa-custhelp.ssa.gov/app/ans...ements-to-provide-your-social-security-number

Oneof them people often run across is: "States to administer any tax, general public assistance, motor vehicle or drivers license law within its jurisdiction;"

More likely than not you will have a choice if there is a question of ID when interacting with a LEO. Give up your SSN or sit in a holding cell until your ID is verified.

For people who are often mistaken for others (in the NICS Records), giving a SSN on the 4473 can often make the difference between a quick purchase or a delayed one.

Again the statement I am making is this. There is no law that requires a citizen to have a SSN in the first place. They are NOT required to be able to live and work within the states of the union. The only ones who are required to be issued a number are those who WANT a SSN and a best effort will be given to issue a SSN to all aliens upon lawful entry to the country.

So again, the cops had no business asking for a SSN. THAT is the source of a large pay out if the cop arrests them for not providing a SSN and locks them up for a time to "verify ID" simply for not providing a SSN. Now if you bother to look at the laws around the creation of the SS program. You will find that the number was not to be used as ID.

However the IRS and congress has allowed the misuse of the number for so long that it's become a de facto ID number. There is zero lawful authority for the government to have created the program in the first place except that it was created as a treaty with socialist countries and was so the citizens of other countries could still gain a socialist retirement benefit while working in the USofA IF the company they were working at wanted to support socialism.

EMNofSeattle · Nov 24, 2012

Take a look at this

I thought this comment was interesting on the police1 board that MSG posted

brokenarrow34 (policeone.com) said:
To those of you who are wishing suits on these guys, shame on you. You're a bunch of ********, suggesting that the ACLU should be involved. The thin blue line is fading because of people like you. Yes, they clearly aren't right here, but that isn't the point that I'm arguing. How many times have you been wrong and not gotten sued and were lucky because of it?

Its sad that we still have cops on the street that are as uneducated about a topic as hot as open carry, but still, you're hoping they get sued? WOW.

It must be bad when cops are accusing other cops of hurting them because the other cops are simply advocating knowing and staying within the law...

MSG Laigaie · Nov 24, 2012

EMNofSeattle said:
I thought this comment was interesting on the police1 board that MSG posted
It must be bad when cops are accusing other cops of hurting them because the other cops are simply advocating knowing and staying within the law...

It must be good when cops are accusing other cops of hurting them because the other cops are not simply advocating knowing and staying within the law..

That was my point. The dinosaurs, and you know who they are, are fading away. The new troops are not believing the cr@p and following the law. The times they are a changing, my friends. And aren't you glad to be able to see the beginning of the change.

EMNofSeattle · Nov 24, 2012

MSG Laigaie said:
It must be good when cops are accusing other cops of hurting them because the other cops are not simply advocating knowing and staying within the law..

That was my point. The dinosaurs, and you know who they are, are fading away. The new troops are not believing the cr@p and following the law. The times they are a changing, my friends. And aren't you glad to be able to see the beginning of the change.

Well I think it's great. my problem here is that, I could completely understand the level of police encounters and questionable detentions back when open carry was still a niche movement and when activists began pushing it mainstream in the 2000s, but now with the years of advocacy and encounters, departments where OC is legal should not still be having these issues. it should be well known what you can and can't do as far as responding to an MWAG or an open carry contact.

I think it's good really, I mean people complain about police now, but I think our police forces are more constitutional then ever. My grandfather is old enough to remember when he was growing up Misdemeanors were prosecuted with a beating at the end of a wooden straight baton, this was widely ignored if not tacitly encouraged by police superiors. but in giant increments, starting with the televised footage of innocent blacks just gathering to demand the rights they deserved as citizens, being beaten or shot or having dogs cut loose on them, I think that started a level of reforms, and then in the 70s with Serpico another level of reforms begans, and then in the 90s with the first real "portable" video equipment available to the average citizen now police officers were being taped, and with the advent of the same VHS based cameras in the police cruisers, accountability to the public has only increased, and with the better pay and more professional training drawing educated younger people who I believe are very into civil rights and equal protection, I think we're seeing the next big wave of reform and self policing in the ranks.

I think it's a wonderful thing to read the comments on policeone to see just how many officers posting seem to be friendly to our side and growing acceptance of the open carry movement, becuase the open carry movement isn't just about the 2A, it's also about the 4A and 5A and the state constitutions as well.

So I'm hopeful that things will only get better from here. police corruption will never disappear really because humans are not perfect, but I think in the not too distant future we'll have an era in which effective policing and respect for constitutional rights co-exist in harmony and the majority of the problems will be far behind us.

Trigger Dr · Nov 24, 2012

EMNofSeattle said:
Well I think it's great. my problem here is that, I could completely understand the level of police encounters and questionable detentions back when open carry was still a niche movement and when activists began pushing it mainstream in the 2000s, but now with the years of advocacy and encounters, departments where OC is legal should not still be having these issues. it should be well known what you can and can't do as far as responding to an MWAG or an open carry contact.

I think it's good really, I mean people complain about police now, but I think our police forces are more constitutional then ever. My grandfather is old enough to remember when he was growing up Misdemeanors were prosecuted with a beating at the end of a wooden straight baton, this was widely ignored if not tacitly encouraged by police superiors. but in giant increments, starting with the televised footage of innocent blacks just gathering to demand the rights they deserved as citizens, being beaten or shot or having dogs cut loose on them, I think that started a level of reforms, and then in the 70s with Serpico another level of reforms begans, and then in the 90s with the first real "portable" video equipment available to the average citizen now police officers were being taped, and with the advent of the same VHS based cameras in the police cruisers, accountability to the public has only increased, and with the better pay and more professional training drawing educated younger people who I believe are very into civil rights and equal protection, I think we're seeing the next big wave of reform and self policing in the ranks.

I think it's a wonderful thing to read the comments on policeone to see just how many officers posting seem to be friendly to our side and growing acceptance of the open carry movement, becuase the open carry movement isn't just about the 2A, it's also about the 4A and 5A and the state constitutions as well.

So I'm hopeful that things will only get better from here. police corruption will never disappear really because humans are not perfect, but I think in the not too distant future we'll have an era in which effective policing and respect for constitutional rights co-exist in harmony and the majority of the problems will be far behind us.

"Somewhere, Over the rainbow....."

MKEgal · Nov 24, 2012

EMNofSeattle said:
I think in the not too distant future we'll have an era in which effective policing and respect for constitutional rights co-exist in harmony and the majority of the problems will be far behind us.

I'm not entirely sure, but I think you're actually serious.
That's worrisome.
I think it's going to get a lot worse before having the opportunity to get better.
Well, that's not completely correct.
I think that some of the rank & file boots on the street sorts of officers are getting a better attitude toward protecting & defending the Constitution.
I also think that overall, institutionally, our rights are being disregarded more & more - more frequently & more seriously.

EMNofSeattle · Nov 25, 2012

MKEgal said:
I'm not entirely sure, but I think you're actually serious.
That's worrisome.
I think it's going to get a lot worse before having the opportunity to get better.
Well, that's not completely correct.
I think that some of the rank & file boots on the street sorts of officers are getting a better attitude toward protecting & defending the Constitution.
I also think that overall, institutionally, our rights are being disregarded more & more - more frequently & more seriously.

I don't, as I've pointed out, the system has only gotten better.

I mean I know there are some holdouts and some areas where corruption is greater. but on the whole I think law enforcement as a profession is only getting more respectable, and more professional. I don't see any evidence that unlawful acts by cops are increasing in number and severity. As i've said, when my grandfather was a child mouthing off to a cop meant a little one on one "physical therapy" in the alleyway.

obviously the civil rights marchers were treated terribly by police, and even in the 1970s a large number of big city police officers were moonlighting for organized crime. There are some concerns about SWAT teams and militarization of police, but frankly I think that's been over-hyped. there's been some concerns over wrong address warrants and no-knock raids, but I'm not aware of any serious study done showing the frequency of how often that happens, and I think it's comparitively rare. I mean lets say we had one wrong address raid in which an innocent was harmed, a day, and that each raid involved 100 police officers, all complicit in the decision, we have 36,500 crooked officers in these raids gone wrong, there's about 850,000 people who can be reasonably defined as LEOs in the USA, we have .04% of LEOs in these crooked raids. obviously this is not a huge percentage, and these controversial no knock raids do not occur once a day involving 100 officers each.

so I'm actually convinced things are better and looking up.

of course you may feel the other way, and I've read your thread about your trouble with Milwauke Police and really I can't blame you for having that view and nothing says I'm completely right. It's just my observation from the reading I've done that policing is really not that corrupt a profession compared to even 30 years ago. of course YMMV

*Caveat, I think the Federal Govt is a different story, the Federal Government has been taking a bigger and bigger role over the last few years, while there's a healthy debate as to whether that's good or bad, a Federal Government that is involved in more will enforce more, and need more people to do it, who are less likely to question authority.

My observation are from observing State & Local LEOs, not nessecarily Federal.

Freedom1Man · Nov 25, 2012

EMNofSeattle said:
I don't, as I've pointed out, the system has only gotten better.

I mean I know there are some holdouts and some areas where corruption is greater. but on the whole I think law enforcement as a profession is only getting more respectable, and more professional. I don't see any evidence that unlawful acts by cops are increasing in number and severity. As i've said, when my grandfather was a child mouthing off to a cop meant a little one on one "physical therapy" in the alleyway.

After listening to former cops speak on this subject, I believe that this is false.

The first one had never ever used a no-knock warrant. If he had a warrant to arrest someone he would knock on the door, present the warrant, allow them to lock up their house, maybe make a quick phone call, and then he would take them down the station/jail. He did not issue speeding tickets to some going 100mph on the freeway unless they were being idiots about it or there was too much traffic to do it safely then he would issue a to fast for conditions ticket.

Another one was bragging about how he called in a false gas leak so he could search an apartment without a warrant. He is a former Snohomish Sheriff's Deputy. I asked him about OC and he told me that if he saw someone OCing he knew it was not illegal but he said he would still go and talk to (harass) them.

Two more were talking about how they found out officers were training their dogs to give false alerts. They both quit the force.

FreeInAZ · Nov 25, 2012

My 2 cents.

I think location has alot to do with how police conduct themselves in general. I am from Detroit. Born there, lived there, worked there lived within a 15 min. drive from there all my life until recently. You would think police in a hell hole like Detroit would want: law abiding citizens to know how to defend themselves and to do so. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Here is a typical response from a Detroit area LEO to legal OC. It is shocking how down right cruel this officer is all while at least four other LEO's stand by holding tightly to the "thin blue line" and the "code of silence".
www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2xOpF4z_v0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNQ1EglO3TY&feature=related (DPD bending the truth into a pretzel).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdVWg8499Zs&feature=channel&list=UL (Warren PD who later lose Federal suit)

These are all cities in the same metropolitan area. And none of them know the law? Even after Michigan Open Carry has contacted them and provided it to them...hmmm...

Now I have the good fortune of living in a very wealthy suburb of Phoenix AZ. I don't see open carry here often, as many people choose to CC via Constitutional carry or with a AZ CCW, but I do OC, and so far nothing. Sat in a restaurant next to a table full of County Sheriff's, not a peep or a funny look. Most smart police understand as a general rule CRIMINALS DO NOT OPEN CARRY.

Citizen · Nov 25, 2012

FreeInAZ said:
I think location has alot to do with how police conduct themselves in general. I am from Detroit. Born there, lived there, worked there lived within a 15 min. drive from there all my life until recently. You would think police in a hell hole like Detroit would want: law abiding citizens to know how to defend themselves and to do so. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Here is a typical response from a Detroit area LEO to legal OC. It is shocking how down right cruel this officer is all while at least four other LEO's stand by holding tightly to the "thin blue line" and the "code of silence".
www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2xOpF4z_v0

I only listened to a little bit of that first recording.

Rather disgusting really.

I guess it just doesn't occur to certain the thugs-in-blue that free men might behave as though...gee...maybe as though they are free?

What a buncha idiots. Bwahahahahahahhahahahaahhaa!!!

Click to expand...

sudden valley gunner · Nov 25, 2012

MKEgal said:
I'm not entirely sure, but I think you're actually serious.
That's worrisome.
I think it's going to get a lot worse before having the opportunity to get better.
Well, that's not completely correct.
I think that some of the rank & file boots on the street sorts of officers are getting a better attitude toward protecting & defending the Constitution.
I also think that overall, institutionally, our rights are being disregarded more & more - more frequently & more seriously.

+1
He wants to be a cop or prosecutor. And doesn't understand why I don't want him to be one with this attitude. We already have enough problems with cops getting away with crime in this state without more apologists being in power.

http://www.policemisconduct.net/the-problem-with-prosecuting-police-in-washington-state/

Police are agents of the government they enforce way more malum prohibitum rules over crime.

http://www.policemisconduct.net/

OC is not the only issue, lets ask these cops about unconstitutional proactive enforcement and see what sort of attitude they show.

amlevin · Nov 25, 2012

Freedom1Man said:
Again the statement I am making is this. There is no law that requires a citizen to have a SSN in the first place.

Just out of curiosity, do YOU have an SSN?

If not, how does that work out for you with Employers? Banks? The IRS?

There are more and more laws today that do require one to have and provide a SSN. Try buying a Hunting/Fishing license in some states. Ditto for anyone receiving "State Assistance".

Freedom1Man · Nov 25, 2012

amlevin said:
Just out of curiosity, do YOU have an SSN?

If not, how does that work out for you with Employers? Banks? The IRS?

There are more and more laws today that do require one to have and provide a SSN. Try buying a Hunting/Fishing license in some states. Ditto for anyone receiving "State Assistance".

I do not.

The hunting/fishing is not easy the first time because you have to call the department of fish and wildlife while in a store paying for a license. For the first time only do it during government working hours. You will get a wild ID number that you can use for all future licenses.

The IRS, well they won't talk to me at all because I don't have a SSN.

"Employer" is a legal term that implies that you're asking to pay Social Security Taxes. Finding a job is difficult due to the general public being ignorant and illiterate. The government makes overt threats against businesses who are willing to hire someone who does not have a SSN. I did find an article from Texas that clearly shows that providing/having a SSN is not legally required to get a job. The government benefits from your enslavedness though and so the courts will side with any business who only wants to hire government slaves (those who have a SSN).

As for Banks, in Washington you can file suite to have the credit union's charter pulled for violating their charter with the state. They are required to be open too ALL legal residents/citizens of Washington.

EMNofSeattle · Nov 25, 2012

sudden valley gunner said:
+1
He wants to be a cop or prosecutor. And doesn't understand why I don't want him to be one with this attitude. We already have enough problems with cops getting away with crime in this state without more apologists being in power.

http://www.policemisconduct.net/the-problem-with-prosecuting-police-in-washington-state/

Police are agents of the government they enforce way more malum prohibitum rules over crime.

http://www.policemisconduct.net/

OC is not the only issue, lets ask these cops about unconstitutional proactive enforcement and see what sort of attitude they show.

uggghh

Please cite in which post I stated I wanted to be a prosecutor?

Why don't you define what you mean by "unconstitutional proactive enforcement".

sudden valley gunner · Nov 26, 2012

EMNofSeattle said:
uggghh

Please cite in which post I stated I wanted to be a prosecutor?

Why don't you define what you mean by "unconstitutional proactive enforcement".

The forum won't let me go back that far in your posts, so I'll leave it at lawyer and cop.

Our constitution is based on common law, in common law you have to have 3 elements for a crime. Victim, actus reus, mens rea. Things like going 10 over on the road, jaywalking, ingesting substances into your own body, wearing blue clothing, etc...meet none of these standards.

Also proactive is trying to stop a crime before it happens this is just wrong on so many levels. Where in the constitution does it grant you the authority to cruise around and find "criminals" that have harmed no one? But have committed a malum prohibitum offense?

Our governments have had to make many many changes not only to common law but to definitions and culture of our society to institute a "proactive" police force.

Roger Roots "Are cops Constitutional" is a pretty good and informative read. A better book in my opinion backed with more cites and written by lawyers is Roberts and Stratton's Tyranny of Good intentions, How Prosecutors and Law Enforcement are Trampling the Constitution in the name of Justice

rapgood · Nov 26, 2012

EMNofSeattle said:
obviously the civil rights marchers were treated terribly by police, and even in the 1970s a large number of big city police officers were moonlighting for organized crime. There are some concerns about SWAT teams and militarization of police, but frankly I think that's been over-hyped. there's been some concerns over wrong address warrants and no-knock raids, but I'm not aware of any serious study done showing the frequency of how often that happens, and I think it's comparitively rare. I mean lets say we had one wrong address raid in which an innocent was harmed, a day, and that each raid involved 100 police officers, all complicit in the decision, we have 36,500 crooked officers in these raids gone wrong, there's about 850,000 people who can be reasonably defined as LEOs in the USA, we have .04% of LEOs in these crooked raids. obviously this is not a huge percentage, and these controversial no knock raids do not occur once a day involving 100 officers each.

And 67% of all statistics are plucked from thin air.

Citizen · Nov 26, 2012

rapgood said:
And 67% of all statistics are plucked from thin air.

Actually, 67.239%. But, we shouldn't be insulting air like that.

rapgood · Nov 26, 2012

Citizen said:
Actually, 67.239%. But, we shouldn't be insulting air like that.

You're right. My bad. Sorry, air!

Citizen · Nov 26, 2012

EMNofSeattle said:
SNIP obviously the civil rights marchers were treated terribly by police, and even in the 1970s a large number of big city police officers were moonlighting for organized crime. There are some concerns about SWAT teams and militarization of police, but frankly I think that's been over-hyped. there's been some concerns over wrong address warrants and no-knock raids, but I'm not aware of any serious study done showing the frequency of how often that happens, and I think it's comparitively rare. I mean lets say we had one wrong address raid in which an innocent was harmed, a day, and that each raid involved 100 police officers, all complicit in the decision, we have 36,500 crooked officers in these raids gone wrong, there's about 850,000 people who can be reasonably defined as LEOs in the USA, we have .04% of LEOs in these crooked raids. obviously this is not a huge percentage, and these controversial no knock raids do not occur once a day involving 100 officers each.

Happy to help. http://www.cato.org/publications/white-paper/overkill-rise-paramilitary-police-raids-america

You can buy a copy, or, scroll down the page a bit and read it for free.

----------------------

One of the problems with claiming statistical rarity is modern communications. After the first two or three such incidents, police all over the country should know about the dangers and be taking concrete steps to avoid it. In fact, hurting innocents, killing innocents, killing their dogs is so strong a disincentive that these considerations should come up as a concern that argues against even considering these raids in any but the most unavoidable situations. Given how fast other departments can learn about the dangers--that should have been obvious without having to learn about it--these raids should never have gotten very far off the ground as a policy in the first place.

EMNofSeattle · Nov 26, 2012

rapgood said:
And 67% of all statistics are plucked from thin air.

Well Obviously I created those numbers on a hyperbole hypothetical to make a point. I didn't hide that at all....

Are the attitudes of LEOs changing towards Open Carriers?

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