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Thread: Lawrence County backs down..... too bad

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    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    Lawrence County backs down..... too bad

    I read today in the Big Sandy printed newspaper than Lawrence county decided Monday Nov 19 that they will not be pursuing this in court but will revise their current ordinance to come into compliance with state law.

    This was a disappointment to me because I was hoping to get some politicians out of office quick. I was torn between the two options. The first was they would take this to court and waste my tax payer money but we can always use a win (we would have won) and with the amount of time it would have took we (I, or anyone else. I really didn't care) could have filed suit against Lawrence county and hopefully brought official misconduct against them.

    I still count this as a win though. It is less dramatic and not as strong, but it is there.

    County Attorney Mike Hogan apparently didn't have time to draft a law suit, so he claimed (by the newspaper). I don't know if this is true, I think he was doing it to save face. He will always have this black mark on his record though. So much for "2nd amendment friendly" campaign flyers.

    I am going to do my best to clean the courthouse next election.
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    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    I read today in the Big Sandy printed newspaper than Lawrence county decided Monday Nov 19 that they will not be pursuing this in court but will revise their current ordinance to come into compliance with state law.

    This was a disappointment to me because I was hoping to get some politicians out of office quick. I was torn between the two options. The first was they would take this to court and waste my tax payer money but we can always use a win (we would have won) and with the amount of time it would have took we (I, or anyone else. I really didn't care) could have filed suit against Lawrence county and hopefully brought official misconduct against them.

    I still count this as a win though. It is less dramatic and not as strong, but it is there.

    County Attorney Mike Hogan apparently didn't have time to draft a law suit, so he claimed (by the newspaper). I don't know if this is true, I think he was doing it to save face. He will always have this black mark on his record though. So much for "2nd amendment friendly" campaign flyers.

    I am going to do my best to clean the courthouse next election.
    Hey man, a wins a win. It may not have been how we wanted it, but I'll take it. Kinda a stupid question but do you think our protest played a part in their choice not to pursue?
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

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    Regular Member KYKevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by self preservation View Post
    Hey man, a wins a win. It may not have been how we wanted it, but I'll take it. Kinda a stupid question but do you think our protest played a part in their choice not to pursue?
    +1 I agree.
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    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by self preservation View Post
    Kinda a stupid question but do you think our protest played a part in their choice not to pursue?
    Honestly, no.

    I think he thinks he is above us common folks. In my opinion, he asked someone for their input and they told him it wasn't going to work out.

    But it is possible, he is a politician.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    Honestly, no.

    I think he thinks he is above us common folks. In my opinion, he asked someone for their input and they told him it wasn't going to work out.

    But it is possible, he is a politician.
    I belive through our e-mails, and the thousands he most certainly received from NRA members, he came to his senses. We all knew he would never file a lawsuit because we have always known that he had no case.

    This is a BIG win and you should be proud of yourself and what you have accomplished! You squashed tyranny, even if it was at a small level!

    I did find it amuzing that Hogan refused to return my e-mails! Oh well, it sounds like he FINALLY got the message!
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

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    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    Do you think that I should continue to try to get CC legal in our courthouse too? Now that they know they can't stop firearms in the courthouse I think I can go a bit further where they don't try to control CC either.
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

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    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    Do you think that I should continue to try to get CC legal in our courthouse too? Now that they know they can't stop firearms in the courthouse I think I can go a bit further where they don't try to control CC either.
    I have no dog in it but I say strike while the iron is still hot. I would continue to fight for all our gun rights. Not just the OC ones. Plus I would let them know that a CC ban will only encourage people to OC. And it seems that OC is what they hate the most so they may allow CC just so they can have the whole "out of sight, out of mind" thing going for them.
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

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    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post

    This is a BIG win and you should be proud of yourself and what you have accomplished! You squashed tyranny, even if it was at a small level!
    I agree 110%. When it comes to protecting our gun rights there is no such thing as a small win. Any time we can defeat tyranny it's always a big win. Even at a small level as you have said. A win is a win regardless.........
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

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    Regular Member DrakeZ07's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by self preservation View Post
    I have no dog in it but I say strike while the iron is still hot. I would continue to fight for all our gun rights. Not just the OC ones. Plus I would let them know that a CC ban will only encourage people to OC. And it seems that OC is what they hate the most so they may allow CC just so they can have the whole "out of sight, out of mind" thing going for them.
    Personally... No, just... No. Why bother pushing for CC, when it is something granted only to people with a permission slip, and in my opinion, would lead other places to thing they can get away with allowing CC, and harassing OC. And the ones who go agaisnt state law really don't care about lawsuits and judgements, else they wouldn't be going against state law. I dunno if that makes any sense, but to say "hey, out of sight out of mind, allow CC since you hate OC so much" kinda sounds like it's okay to give a big 'F&#$ you' to OC'ers, and people who cant afford, or have no need for, a CCDW.

    Just my stupid opinion, though.
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    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeZ07 View Post
    Personally... No, just... No. Why bother pushing for CC, when it is something granted only to people with a permission slip, and in my opinion, would lead other places to thing they can get away with allowing CC, and harassing OC. And the ones who go agaisnt state law really don't care about lawsuits and judgements, else they wouldn't be going against state law. I dunno if that makes any sense, but to say "hey, out of sight out of mind, allow CC since you hate OC so much" kinda sounds like it's okay to give a big 'F&#$ you' to OC'ers, and people who cant afford, or have no need for, a CCDW.

    Just my stupid opinion, though.
    I respectively have to disagree with some of what you are saying. Why push to allow CC as well you ask? I would because I like to advocate for all gun rights/"privileges"(CC) and not just Open Carry in general. Some people will only CC and would never think of OC for lots of different reasons. I refuse to get in a pi$$ing match over "us vs them" and who is carrying the "better way". I OC all the time..I CC from time to time. If my next door neighbor will only CC, I say good for him. At least he is carrying.

    Imagine if Owingsville banned CC like they tried to do a few months back. Imagine it passed and one of your family members/loved ones that do not carry stopped into city hall to pay a water bill, their taxes or any reason for that matter. Now if a mentally ill person walks in and starts shooting, even though my next door neighbor is in there paying his water bill as well but has left his gun out in the car due to the CC ban, you now have a bunch of defenseless sitting ducks.

    My point being is disarming innocent, LAC, doesn't not protect innocent, LAC. Be it that the ban be against OC, CC, high capacity mags, certain calibers etc etc. And you express a concern that if you are OC'ing in a place that also allows CC that we may be harassed......... Doesn't this happen all the time already? That's why we carry recorders, constantly keep abreast on KY gun laws, have an attorney in mind to call in case our negative encounters go south, and that's why we share our bad encounters with each other so we can learn from each others situations.

    Just like you this is only my opinion. But I still feel that carrying is carrying....regardless of how you do it.
    Last edited by self preservation; 11-24-2012 at 11:32 AM.
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    Do you think that I should continue to try to get CC legal in our courthouse too? Now that they know they can't stop firearms in the courthouse I think I can go a bit further where they don't try to control CC either.
    Why not? In order to change the ordinance in question they must completely rescind it and start over. If they didn't want to mess with trying to get another ordinance correct (because I am sure they will not get it right the first time), then they could just rescind the current ordinance and that would be the end of it.

    If they do attempt to come back with an ordinance than prohibits CC (even though it is useless because we can still CC regardless) then I would guaruntee they get it wrong on their first attempt.

    Fight for it, and if they insist on banning CC make sure they do it right. They can't arrest for violation of the ordinance; they can only prohibit CC inside buildings (they must make exceptions for certain buildings under authority of KRS 237.115); the ordinance must state that asking one to leave that is carrying concealed is the only option they have -- they cannot put the current wording which states the Sheriff and his deputies can do whatever they believe is needed to ensure compliance.

    If they insist on restricting CC then give them a sample ordinance that is spot-on and urge them to use it so they get it right.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

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    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    Let Mr. Hogan earn his money and let him attempt to draft a proper ordinance. He has plenty of resources if he wants to use them. KACO will give him a sample ordinance, if he wants it. I've never understood why a public official would want to argue about any of this. They have the perfect out if things go wrong. All they have to do is say, "We didn't have a choice. The state law required us to do it."
    I meant to post a the news article, but I seemed to have misplaced my newspaper.

    Do you want to know what the kicker is? The fiscal court says that if Mike cannot do it in the time frame then they'll bring in an outside attorney. That is my county employees for you.

    I tried to tell them that, if they follow state law then they would assume little liability for any of it.

    I think I will make a presentation to bring up at the next meeting.
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    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    The fiscal court says that if Mike cannot do it in the time frame then they'll bring in an outside attorney.
    Wait..........I thought they dropped this issue!!! Or are you talking about a CC ordinance?
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

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    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by self preservation View Post
    Wait..........I thought they dropped this issue!!! Or are you talking about a CC ordinance?
    Yes, if they can't make an ordinance that complies with state law before the deadline then they'll call in an outside attorney.
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    I meant to post a the news article, but I seemed to have misplaced my newspaper.

    Do you want to know what the kicker is? The fiscal court says that if Mike cannot do it in the time frame then they'll bring in an outside attorney. That is my county employees for you.

    I tried to tell them that, if they follow state law then they would assume little liability for any of it.

    I think I will make a presentation to bring up at the next meeting.
    Then do as you are suggesting and go and ask them why they even need a new ordinance.

    If the CA cannot do his job then he is useless and needs to be charged with malfeasance.

    The Fiscal Court just needs to abolish the current ordinance immediately -- in an emergency session if they must. After the current ordinance is abolished then they can take their time doing whatever comes next. But you can stress to them that having an ordinance is pointless because A) we can still carry concealed in their buildings and they can do nothing to us for doing so, and B) we can still carry openly and they cannot stop us from doing so. So why would they want to attempt another ordinance when we can ignore it?

    Also, I would make sure to inform them that in order for their ordinance to be enforceable they must have proper signs manufactured to hang on EVERY door entering EVERY building they have control of.

    This might make them realize that their ordinance would be useless, because as we all know, it would be.

    And Gutshot is right, I don't know why I was speaking of helping them. Let them get it wrong, and have to keep trying to get it right. I will say that if Hogan cannot professionaly execute his posistion, then he needs to be removed -- especially since he has two or three assistant CAs.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

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    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    I talked to Judge Executive John Osbourn today, he said that he is trying to have a revised ordinance ready by December 6th (I think they're doing a special meeting). He told me that he wanted to get rid of the ordinance all together and not revise it. He seemed to be under the impression that 237(.115) requires an ordinance. I don't know if he believed me that it does not.

    He told me he would try to get the magistrates on board with just getting rid of the whole thing. I think I can convince all of them to but I don't know if I can explain it simply enough for them to understand. Last time I talked to anyone of them they seemed to be under the impression that a sign is similar to a magic forcefield.

    It seems he and County Attorney Hogan are at odds with each other. Those two are trying their best to distance themselves from each other for some reason. I really don't know what is going on, but I doubt it is a small as a simple firearm ordinance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    I talked to Judge Executive John Osbourn today, he said that he is trying to have a revised ordinance ready by December 6th (I think they're doing a special meeting). He told me that he wanted to get rid of the ordinance all together and not revise it. He seemed to be under the impression that 237(.115) requires an ordinance. I don't know if he believed me that it does not.

    He told me he would try to get the magistrates on board with just getting rid of the whole thing. I think I can convince all of them to but I don't know if I can explain it simply enough for them to understand. Last time I talked to anyone of them they seemed to be under the impression that a sign is similar to a magic forcefield.

    It seems he and County Attorney Hogan are at odds with each other. Those two are trying their best to distance themselves from each other for some reason. I really don't know what is going on, but I doubt it is a small as a simple firearm ordinance.
    That is a good thing.

    I will say that I received good vibes from Osbourne. He seems like he is a good guy, but he was being led astray by Hogan. He needs to exert his authority over the rest of them and make decisions for himself. He believes he must have Hogan approve everything, and that nearly got him in trouble. Had we (you mainly) dealt with him and him only, I believe you would have solved this problem without issue.

    As for the commissioners (magistrates) -- they are just regular citizens unless they are acting in their official capacity at Fiscal Court meetings. Osbourne is the man that controls the County's day to day functions and is delegated the power to make sure the County operates smoothly.

    Make sure they know the only reason they need an ordinance is if they are attempting to ban CC; and hope they just abolish it altogether.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

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    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    I noticed that the levisa lazer didn't bother to run a story on the back down. They sure as hell didn't mind to report all of the other Nazi activity in Lawrence county. After reading the levisa lazer a couple of times I would only buy a copy to use when I'm out of toilet paper. Man, what a shi@ty newspaper.
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

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