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Thread: Black Friday Shopper uses his CCW to defend himself.

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    Black Friday Shopper uses his CCW to defend himself.

    I understand this is not a open carry story, but i am sure the man would have never been attacked if he was open carrying. AT least he had a firearm to defend himself.\

    A concealed handgun license-holder pulled his gun on a man who punched him in the face at a San Antonio Sears during Black Friday sales Thursday night. A man tried to cut in line, argued with people and threw a punch, police said. The punched man drew his gun and caused a panic with people "tumbling over things, dropping boxes," said shopper Roger Rivera. "It kind of went a little crazy in there." The gun owner was not charged with a crime, said San Antonio Police Sgt. Rob Carey.

    http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/loc...ll-4060598.php
    Last edited by zack991; 11-23-2012 at 06:25 PM.
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    Regular Member compmanio365's Avatar
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    Wonderful journalism, making the victim out to be the perp here as you read the article. Obviously the man reacted in self defense as far as the police were concerned. But I am wondering on what grounds they took his weapon? And the sensationalist reports from shoppers in the store....."reports of a shooting", when no shots were fired. Apparently comments in the article are stating other news agencies in the area are a bit more unbiased.

    EDIT: Looks like the police report states they gave him back his gun, person claiming the man provoked the situation was the mother of the guy punching the CCWer in the mouth....a little biased to be sure.

    Link to police report: http://www.ksat.com/blob/view/-/1753...ormat=rsss_2.0
    Last edited by compmanio365; 11-23-2012 at 07:09 PM. Reason: More info obtained

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    I was just surprised they did not screw up more detail.
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    Killed in jerkwater, USA ... nice ...

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    Regular Member MikeTheGreek's Avatar
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    From what I gathered, the two men got into each others faces, one man threw a punch and the other drew his handgun and kept it pointed at the ground, everyone (including the guy who threw the punch) took off running.


    I would not have drawn, to me a punch doesn't justify even contemplating deadly force, and I would only draw my firearm if I was ready to use it.

    Should have just walked away..or decked the guy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeTheGreek View Post
    (snip)to me a punch doesn't justify even contemplating deadly force
    To be fair, just because a punch doesn't equate to deadly force for you, doesn't necessarily mean the same for everyone else. Not stating this is the case for this specific individual, but someone with a possibility of paralysis, brain injury, etc, may find that deadly force is absolutely justified in such an altercation.

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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PistolPackingMomma View Post
    To be fair, just because a punch doesn't equate to deadly force for you, doesn't necessarily mean the same for everyone else. Not stating this is the case for this specific individual, but someone with a possibility of paralysis, brain injury, etc, may find that deadly force is absolutely justified in such an altercation.
    It also applies to those of us who do not wish to fight.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PistolPackingMomma View Post
    To be fair, just because a punch doesn't equate to deadly force for you, doesn't necessarily mean the same for everyone else. Not stating this is the case for this specific individual, but someone with a possibility of paralysis, brain injury, etc, may find that deadly force is absolutely justified in such an altercation.
    The courts may agree and may not depending on the circumstance ... can you see the DA on this one "he drew his gun out in a crowd of people trying to get christmas gifts for their loved ones and children were present waaa waaa waaa" -- get the noose on that guy huh?

    But I don't think I would pull a gun out (and I only would pull my gun to shoot, not scare) for a hit if it did not cause me to be unable to walk back from the guy...but maybe I would if the situation deemed it necessary (like if the guy was part of a group that looked like they were threatening me).

    There are plenty of 1 punch homicides .. that's for sure ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    The courts may agree and may not depending on the circumstance ... can you see the DA on this one "he drew his gun out in a crowd of people trying to get christmas gifts for their loved ones and children were present waaa waaa waaa" -- get the noose on that guy huh?

    But I don't think I would pull a gun out (and I only would pull my gun to shoot, not scare) for a hit if it did not cause me to be unable to walk back from the guy...but maybe I would if the situation deemed it necessary (like if the guy was part of a group that looked like they were threatening me).

    There are plenty of 1 punch homicides .. that's for sure ...
    The law says you take a person as you find them. There's no requirement for the BG to know you are more physically fragile than you may appear. For example:

    Defense Attorney to jury: "Mr. skidmark has condition A, condition B, condition (well, you get the picture). Any blow has, as Dr. X has testified, great potential to cause any of a number of chains of response leading to <consequence of conditions> which, again as Dr. X has testified, hold a high risk of death for Mr. skidmark. Repeated blows increase that risk, as Dr. X has testified, to a high likelihood."

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PistolPackingMomma View Post
    To be fair, just because a punch doesn't equate to deadly force for you, doesn't necessarily mean the same for everyone else. Not stating this is the case for this specific individual, but someone with a possibility of paralysis, brain injury, etc, may find that deadly force is absolutely justified in such an altercation.
    This is true. One of the criteria constituting serious bodily harm is broken bones. The face is full of bone structure which can be rather easy to break with a hard and well delivered punch.

    Still, if at all possible it is best to avoid such encounters, especially when armed, and leave those who wish to join in to their own devices.
    Last edited by SouthernBoy; 11-24-2012 at 08:28 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    The courts may agree and may not depending on the circumstance ... can you see the DA on this one "he drew his gun out in a crowd of people trying to get christmas gifts for their loved ones and children were present waaa waaa waaa" -- get the noose on that guy huh?

    But I don't think I would pull a gun out (and I only would pull my gun to shoot, not scare) for a hit if it did not cause me to be unable to walk back from the guy...but maybe I would if the situation deemed it necessary (like if the guy was part of a group that looked like they were threatening me).

    There are plenty of 1 punch homicides .. that's for sure ...
    Which is why I stated that this may not be the case for this specific individual, but across the board generalizations that one punch is not lethal force for everyone is too generalized to be accurate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    This is true. One of the criteria constituting serious bodily harm is broken bones. The face is full of bone structure which can be rather easy to break with a hard and well delivered punch.

    Still, if at all possible it is best to avoid such encounters, especially when armed, and leave those who wish to join in to their own devices.
    Concur 100%

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    I'm a walking disabled Vet with a broken back and drawing down with deadly force on a guy who just punched me in the face would be justified in my opinion, if I could recover from the pain of being knocked to the ground that is.

    I agree that fear of getting a continued beating with the chance of enough bodily injury is enough of a reason to draw in that situation even if your not disabled.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    This is why I do most shopping online. I have a bad ticker, so it would be stupid for me to go shopping when I know there is going to be pushing and shoving and short fuses. How can one have any kind of situational awareness in this type of chaos. IF I had been in his place I would not have drawn, but then he would have a cane tip mark in one of his eyes. And no I don't use rubber tipped canes.
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    Re: Black Friday Shopper uses his CCW to defend himself.

    Let's not forget that this happened in Texas, where the open carrying of handguns is illegal. On the one hand, it pleases me that the guy who got punched was able to end it without further incident, but at the same time, I feel that as able-bodied men, we should be able to take a punch and throw a punch. Responding to a punch by drawing a gun rather than jus fighting back, is the very reason gun crime is so high in many urban areas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tattedupboy View Post
    Let's not forget that this happened in Texas, where the open carrying of handguns is illegal. On the one hand, it pleases me that the guy who got punched was able to end it without further incident, but at the same time, I feel that as able-bodied men, we should be able to take a punch and throw a punch. Responding to a punch by drawing a gun rather than jus fighting back, is the very reason gun crime is so high in many urban areas.

    Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
    What about the folks who have to wear corrective lenses, or have partials/dentures that cost thousands of dollars for those without insurance, or hearing aids that also cost thousands of dollars for those without insurance. Law abiding, retired, working, or disabled folks shouln't have to MMA their way through life.

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    Re: Black Friday Shopper uses his CCW to defend himself.

    Quote Originally Posted by SpringerXDacp View Post
    What about the folks who have to wear corrective lenses, or have partials/dentures that cost thousands of dollars for those without insurance, or hearing aids that also cost thousands of dollars for those without insurance. Law abiding, retired, working, or disabled folks shouln't have to MMA their way through life.
    My last post referred to those who are able bodied. Obviously that would have to be defined under the law, and I don't know anything about the guy in this particular scenario, but in general, I still believe no self-respecting, able bodied man should rely ONLY on his gun to protect himself. Learn how to throw a punch, and learn how to take one as well.

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    Last edited by tattedupboy; 11-24-2012 at 01:41 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tattedupboy View Post
    My last post referred to those who are able bodied. Obviously that would have to be defined under the law, and I don't know anything about the guy in this particular scenario, but in general, I still believe no self-respecting, able bodied man should rely ONLY on his gun to protect himself. Learn how to throw a punch, and learn how to take one as well.

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    Why? why should "able bodied" men have to fistfight over that kind of thing? how would you define able bodied?

    No, I think a quick show of force to end the fight is nessecary, leave this "able body" and "fair fight" crap to cheesy samurai movies, I don't fight fair, I fight to win, and if showing off the level of force I'm willing to use at the start causes the other guy to re-consider then that's a win for everyone.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tattedupboy View Post
    My last post referred to those who are able bodied. Obviously that would have to be defined under the law, and I don't know anything about the guy in this particular scenario, but in general, I still believe no self-respecting, able bodied man should rely ONLY on his gun to protect himself. Learn how to throw a punch, and learn how to take one as well....
    I'm self-respecting. I'm able-bodied. I don't fight.

    To this day, I breathe with difficulty through my nose because I was sucker-punched in the face by a bully as a young teen.

    If I can stop it, I will NOT be punched.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeTheGreek View Post
    From what I gathered, the two men got into each others faces, one man threw a punch and the other drew his handgun and kept it pointed at the ground, everyone (including the guy who threw the punch) took off running.


    I would not have drawn, to me a punch doesn't justify even contemplating deadly force, and I would only draw my firearm if I was ready to use it.

    Should have just walked away..or decked the guy.
    It certainly does to me! I have an enlarged spleen and liver from a disease I contracted called epstein-barr (which over 90% of the adult population carries the virus, however effects are different in everyone), and one punch to my abdomen and I could be in a life or death situation. If someone punches you in the face, then the abdomen is next I am sure, and that could be bad if someone were in my situation. Perhaps this man has a condition where his organs are enlarged, or perhaps he is epileptic and cannot sustain blows to the head -- you never know.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpringerXDacp View Post
    What about the folks who have to wear corrective lenses, or have partials/dentures that cost thousands of dollars for those without insurance, or hearing aids that also cost thousands of dollars for those without insurance. Law abiding, retired, working, or disabled folks shouln't have to MMA their way through life.
    No offense but, I don't think you would get very far with that argument with a judge or jury. Replacing expensive items usually does not give an excuse for lethal force.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArmyVet73 View Post
    I'm a walking disabled Vet with a broken back and drawing down with deadly force on a guy who just punched me in the face would be justified in my opinion, if I could recover from the pain of being knocked to the ground that is.

    I agree that fear of getting a continued beating with the chance of enough bodily injury is enough of a reason to draw in that situation even if your not disabled.
    First off, thank you for your service to our country and your sacrifice.

    I am in a similar boat as you since I have osteoarthritis in both knees. I did have a total knee replacement 7 1/2 weeks ago but I am still at a serious disadvantage to an attack. Such disparity would put me in serious jeopardy.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

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    Why are some folks saying that as long as a person os "able-bodied" it is OK to be assaulted and battered?

    As to the extent of the injury, that only addresses a small part of the question of whether or not the guy was justified in drawing his handgun.

    The fact is, we just don't know enough to know if he was justified or not.

    But somehow that does not seem to stop anybody from forming a judgement and expressing it.

    I know what I would do if I found myself in that situation. You will have to wait to read the newspaper report to find out what it would be. But because I believe going shopping in places where there are large crowds of emotional people is a violation of "Don't go stupid places with stupid people to do stupid things" you probably will never read about me being involved in something like that.

    stay safe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    No offense but, I don't think you would get very far with that argument with a judge or jury. Replacing expensive items usually does not give an excuse for lethal force.
    In Michigan, you can not use lethal force to protect property whether it's a dog, horse, a walking cane, eye glasses, etc, but the cost ($$$) is not the point. Getting hit in the face while utilizing/wearing corrective lenses, hearing aids, or plates/dentures, can inflict serious, permanent damage. It's bad enough to be attacked, especially by a worthless dirtbag such in this case, and then add to that the financial burden of replacing those damaged, lost, etc, items. The victim in this case, was only punched once in the mouth (as far as I know) and was not charged.

    "We don't see this very often," Officer Matthew Porter said, adding that Salame did not break the law by displaying the weapon. "He was within his rights."
    Police confiscated the gun, which was loaded and had one round in a chamber, the report says.
    Salame reportedly showed proof that he had a concealed handgun license, and he told officers that he pulled the gun out to defend himself because he was punched in the face by Alejandro Alex, 35. Salame, who did not fire the weapon, said he feared further injury by Alex.



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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeTheGreek View Post
    I would not have drawn, to me a punch doesn't justify even contemplating deadly force, and I would only draw my firearm if I was ready to use it.

    Should have just walked away..or decked the guy.
    I used to say the same thing... until an attack where I should've drawn my gun and didn't. There was head trauma and now I have a permanent injury. People tried to tell me (on various forums) that It'd be a mistake not to draw in those close-in situations. I had disarmed persons/defended myself before with my hands so, in my hubris, I thought that I'd always be fine.

    It only takes one "lucky" hit by a perpetrator to cause serious damage. I'll never let that happen to me again. I learned my lesson. Hopefully, others take heed.

    Quote Originally Posted by tattedupboy View Post
    but in general, I still believe no self-respecting, able bodied man should rely ONLY on his gun to protect himself. Learn how to throw a punch, and learn how to take one as well.
    Bad mindset... I used to have the same... bad advice for anyone.
    Last edited by JmE; 11-25-2012 at 12:16 AM.

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