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Thread: Experiences @ Key Arena?

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    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Experiences @ Key Arena?

    So I'm taking the wife to see Trans Siberian Orchestra at Key Arena tomorrow. Now as I understand it, despite being a govt institution they get around preemption with the old "we're leasing it so someone so THEY can actually prohibit firearms" excuse, etc etc. According to their website they DO provide firearm lockers and checking one should be a non issue, but I'm curious what experiences others have had there, especially recently. Never had to check a firearm before. Given the nature of the show I really don't know if they'd do pat downs or not.


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    State Researcher Bill Starks's Avatar
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    no lock boxes, no checking of firearms....concealed means concealed.

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    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Starks View Post
    no lock boxes, no checking of firearms....concealed means concealed.
    The website appears to contradict. It specifically states they have lock boxes for checking firearms...
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

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    Regular Member badkarma's Avatar
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    I have an email from them that refused to acknowledge open carry as legal. They just said that a cop would come and take it. I can't remember the exact wording but I will see if I can find the email.
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  6. #6
    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Experiences @ Key Arena?

    Yes, I am planning to cc. Gonna be cold & rainy anyway. Concerned about a search more than anything else.


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    Regular Member Gilead_Gunslinger's Avatar
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    been there twice in the last couple of years for concerts... they checked bags... no pat downs... dont even think they asked me to open my coat....
    I aim with my eye... I shoot with my mind... I kill with my heart....
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    Regular Member boosteddreams's Avatar
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    I know this is too late for you, but I wanted to post in case anyone else was curious. I also went to see TSO at Key Arena today (AWESOME show, BTW) and, just like last year, they checked bags & purses but didn't pat down or wand anyone. As said above, concealed means concealed - this is why I have my little LCP.

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    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boosteddreams View Post
    I know this is too late for you, but I wanted to post in case anyone else was curious. I also went to see TSO at Key Arena today (AWESOME show, BTW) and, just like last year, they checked bags & purses but didn't pat down or wand anyone. As said above, concealed means concealed - this is why I have my little LCP.

    Like he said. Non event (well the event its self was awesome, but no search). I had a big heavy motorcycle jacket on with the CZ82. Could have fit a couple in that thing and they never looked at me twice.

    Where were you at? We had killer seats down in the last row of the first block of floor seats. Could actually see what the musicians were doing
    Last edited by Metalhead47; 11-25-2012 at 03:41 AM.
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

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    Regular Member boosteddreams's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metalhead47 View Post
    Like he said. Non event (well the event its self was awesome, but no search). I had a big heavy motorcycle jacket on with the CZ. Could have fit a couple in that thing and they never looked at me twice.
    *She.

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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    Well,,,

    Quote Originally Posted by boosteddreams View Post
    I know this is too late for you, but I wanted to post in case anyone else was curious. I also went to see TSO at Key Arena today (AWESOME show, BTW) and, just like last year, they checked bags & purses but didn't pat down or wand anyone. As said above, concealed means concealed - this is why I have my little LCP.
    yes,,, concealled means concealled...

    I could never tell from your avitar pic,, if that was just folds in your shirt,,, or if that was a back up gun...
    Then I met you again at the Vancouver meet... Then I was "like for sure" ,,, that is a back up gun..
    I made note that they are both carried, strong hand draw..
    I think I prefer that the back up gun be,, off hand draw,,, or, better yet,, ambidexrious,,,
    Your strong hand maybe guarding or retaining your main gun from a grab attempt...
    AND,,, I prefer that, If you cant,, or wont, do that,,, that your back up gun be a Concealled,,, surprise!!
    When I carry a back up,, it is concealled,,, and I can grab it with either hand...
    Just some things I think about...
    Last edited by 1245A Defender; 11-25-2012 at 05:44 AM.
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    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

  12. #12
    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Key Arena is owned by seattle right?

    So State preemption applies

    RCW 9.41.290
    State preemption.

    The state of Washington hereby fully occupies and preempts the entire field of firearms regulation within the boundaries of the state, including the registration, licensing, possession, purchase, sale, acquisition, transfer, discharge, and transportation of firearms, or any other element relating to firearms or parts thereof, including ammunition and reloader components. Cities, towns, and counties or other municipalities may enact only those laws and ordinances relating to firearms that are specifically authorized by state law, as in RCW 9.41.300, and are consistent with this chapter. Such local ordinances shall have the same penalty as provided for by state law. Local laws and ordinances that are inconsistent with, more restrictive than, or exceed the requirements of state law shall not be enacted and are preempted and repealed, regardless of the nature of the code, charter, or home rule status of such city, town, county, or municipality.
    RCW 9.41.300
    Weapons prohibited in certain places — Local laws and ordinances — Exceptions — Penalty.

    ......... (2) Cities, towns, counties, and other municipalities may enact laws and ordinances:

    (a) Restricting the discharge of firearms in any portion of their respective jurisdictions where there is a reasonable likelihood that humans, domestic animals, or property will be jeopardized. Such laws and ordinances shall not abridge the right of the individual guaranteed by Article I, section 24 of the state Constitution to bear arms in defense of self or others; and

    (b) Restricting the possession of firearms in any stadium or convention center, operated by a city, town, county, or other municipality, except that such restrictions shall not apply to:

    (i) Any pistol in the possession of a person licensed under RCW 9.41.070 or exempt from the licensing requirement by RCW 9.41.060; .....................
    Guess what, CPL holders and police officers can carry in Key all they want, that ordinance or policy is repealed....
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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    Regular Member badkarma's Avatar
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    Ok, I had a conversation with Key Arena in March of this year. Their web site contradicts this email but it is fair to say they have no ambition to update the site. I removed the personnel email addresses and names to protect the innocent.

    From: Burke, Edie (SC) [mailto:Edie.BurkeSC@seattle.gov]
    Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 12:09 PM
    To: CCCC@XXXX; CCCC@CCCC
    Cc: Customer Service Desk, Seattle Center; Zhang, Chris; Blanks, Cynthia; Bryant, Barbara
    Subject:

    <NAME> and <NAME> –
    Recently, both of you have contacted Seattle Center about our Firearms Policy. I want to explain what we do at KeyArena events so there is no confusion. We ASK that ALL persons carrying concealed weapons check in at our entry doors with a staff member. The staff member contacts SPD Sgt. in the facility to speak with you. At that time, we offer a gun safe that you can leave your weapon in while you attend the event. The safe is in our security office, a security officer is always present, and, you have the only key to the safe. You can retrieve your weapon before you leave.
    OR, if that is not what you would like to do, we ASK that you provide the SPD Sgt. with your seat location so he is aware of the location of a weapon in the seating area.
    Of course, we would prefer that you leave your weapon at home if you could graciously agree to do so. However, if that is not an option, the above procedures and participation on your part is appreciated.
    Please let me know if you have any questions or concerns.
    Thanks, Edie

    Edie E. Burke
    Facility Manager
    KeyArena at Seattle Center
    305 Harrison Street
    Seattle, WA 98109
    (206) 684.7208 (office)
    edie.burkesc@seattle.gov
    WA Guns
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  14. #14
    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boosteddreams View Post
    *She.
    Whoops my bad, apologies

    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    So State preemption applies
    Guess what, CPL holders and police officers can carry in Key all they want, that ordinance or policy is repealed....
    But, since they are leasing the facility to the event promoter, they can get around that, since the lessee can prohibit whatever they want.... right?

    Quote Originally Posted by badkarma View Post
    Ok, I had a conversation with Key Arena in March of this year. Their web site contradicts this email but it is fair to say they have no ambition to update the site. I removed the personnel email addresses and names to protect the innocent.
    ... and then we have this, which certainly seems like a bureaucrat trying very hard to convince you not to carry while actually staying within the confines of .300. Interesting.
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metalhead47 View Post
    But, since they are leasing the facility to the event promoter, they can get around that, since the lessee can prohibit whatever they want.... right?
    But isn't it interesting how ALL of their event promoters have decided to ban guns at their events? and how the regulation is put on the Arena's website. This is what the Arena's OFFICIAL website says

    Guests, including law enforcement personnel not present in an official capacity, are prohibited from bringing weapons into the arena. KeyArena does provide weapon lockers. See any KeyArena Admissions staff member to check your weapon. Weapons include, but are not limited to, the following: firearms, explosives, stun guns, handcuffs, brass knuckles, sticks, clubs, batons, martial arts instruments, pepper spray, tear gas, knives, etc. Guests found in possession of the above-mentioned items will be asked to remove the item from the arena or dispose of it. Guests who refuse to comply will be ejected from the arena and may be subject to arrest.
    So if that's the case then the city is uniformly banning firearms at the arena, it's not the event promoters if the rule is uniformly applied to all events (i'm sure the event promoters do not disagree with the rule in most cases, but it's not THEIR rule)

    And look at the email address in the previously posted email, that's a "seattle.gov" address and the official to whom the address belongs to admitted that they cannot prohibit you from taking your weapon into the seating area.
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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    Regular Member boosteddreams's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metalhead47
    Whoops my bad, apologies
    No problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    But isn't it interesting how ALL of their event promoters have decided to ban guns at their events? and how the regulation is put on the Arena's website.

    ...


    So if that's the case then the city is uniformly banning firearms at the arena, it's not the event promoters if the rule is uniformly applied to all events (i'm sure the event promoters do not disagree with the rule in most cases, but it's not THEIR rule)

    And look at the email address in the previously posted email, that's a "seattle.gov" address and the official to whom the address belongs to admitted that they cannot prohibit you from taking your weapon into the seating area.
    This is exactly why I just went with a concealed gun.

  17. #17
    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    But isn't it interesting how ALL of their event promoters have decided to ban guns at their events? and how the regulation is put on the Arena's website. This is what the Arena's OFFICIAL website says



    So if that's the case then the city is uniformly banning firearms at the arena, it's not the event promoters if the rule is uniformly applied to all events (i'm sure the event promoters do not disagree with the rule in most cases, but it's not THEIR rule)

    And look at the email address in the previously posted email, that's a "seattle.gov" address and the official to whom the address belongs to admitted that they cannot prohibit you from taking your weapon into the seating area.
    They probably require the lessee to prohibit firearms as a condition of getting their lease in the first place. Seattle SOP. My mind is drawing a blank at the moment, but there's another local venue that's rather notorious on here for doing exactly that to skirt around pre-emption, but until someone with much deeper pockets than mine gets hassled it probably won't change.
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

  18. #18
    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boosteddreams View Post
    No problem.



    This is exactly why I just went with a concealed gun.
    Oh I completely agree, call me a wimpy 2A supporter, but If I've paid good money for a ticket then I'm not going to risk wasting the money arguing with some low-level city official over preemption and an OC gun.

    definitely CC is the way to go, the only point I'm making is that the city rule has no support and cannot be used to charge you with any offense should they catch you...
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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  19. #19
    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metalhead47 View Post
    They probably require the lessee to prohibit firearms as a condition of getting their lease in the first place. Seattle SOP. My mind is drawing a blank at the moment, but there's another local venue that's rather notorious on here for doing exactly that to skirt around pre-emption, but until someone with much deeper pockets than mine gets hassled it probably won't change.
    So then it's a city issued rule/ordinance/regulation that's inconsistent with what's allowed under state law and it's preempted. The city is well within their rights to print a combination of letters on signs and a website that happen to say "firearms prohibited" but they can't enforce that sign, that's why the parks ban went down, they didn't just hang up gunbuster signs, they trespassed people who carried guns.

    So if you go and they search you and find your CCW and trespass you, you have a very easy legal claim against the city, if their police sergeant (who hopefully knows better then whichever person is giving you lip at the door) does not know better and gives you some nice city issued shiny bracelets now you have a false arrest you can sue for. Seattle it pretty thick headed, but I think they would drop the issue like a hot potato to avoid being sued now that their last attempt was smacked down like legal whack-a-mole at two levels of court review.
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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    Regular Member mtlhdtodd's Avatar
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    I was at the TSO show and have been to numerous shows at the Key. I just conceal and have never had a problem.

  21. #21
    Regular Member Alpine's Avatar
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    I could not go, but a friend of mine who carries went to the Rush concert 2 weeks ago told me he cc'ed with no problem.

  22. #22
    Regular Member jt59's Avatar
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    From my trip to Key Arena, Feb 2011

    I went to the Clapton concert and went through the same questions posted here....I cc'd in the end, but chased down the head of security...this was my post and outcome back then...maybe it will help, but don't know if the staff are the same...

    Chased down the answer



    The part of the story that didn't get told, was the conversation I had with an unknown security officer at Key Arena....he got pretty hostile when I asked him about the policy, that I was confused since what he was telling me was inconsistent with the information on the website and his indication that no weapons were allowed period, and that I would be thrown out if found with one....and then went on to (incorrectly) rationalize his position by stating that all Seattle City owned public building were exempt, etc. etc, and that since he was a retired SPDO, that I should just accept that.

    So, I am waiting for a phone call with Edi Birk, the Key Center, manager, but in the meantime spoke with "Lt. Tony Lucero", head of Seattle Center Security for Key Center.

    He advised me that his officer, came immediately to him and advised that he was "less professional than he should have been" with a caller and to expect a my call.

    He also said that he did not advise me correctly on their policy and availabilty of lock boxes.

    So, Here's the deal:

    Lt. Lucero was very professional and supportive of gun rights. He indicated that Seattle is pretty weird right now and that we go from 0 to 60 with the 3 inch knives and the rest of the prohibited weapons list, straight to forcing people the only option of carrying a gun for self protection and that the Mayor, depending on some court case in Kitsap, has implemented the policy that recognizes the state pre-emption, but in their use contracts with promoters of Key Arena (and others), require that they not allow firearms at their event....A clever means to get around the law until challenged....but I digress.

    He said that they have firearms lockers in his office and the procedure is:

    Advise the ticket taker (at the door) that you need to "check" a firearm with security.
    Security will escort you to the office where they will have you put your (loaded) firearm in a box.

    They do not clear the firearm when it is put away and there is only 1 key, so don't lose it.

    They will take basic information of name, address and phone, but after your gone, so is the info...they don't keep it.

    ......they have had issues in the past with people at events, forgetting their property after too much adult beverage, but after the event you can return, pick up you firearm, stick it in the holster and head home.

    I talked with Edi Birk and asked her to update and upgrade the information on the website regarding weapons to include the lock box reference and procedures.


    .....or just CC, as they don't body check males, but did a purse check on my wife.
    Last edited by jt59; 11-27-2012 at 02:08 AM.
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by jt59 View Post
    ...

    I talked with Edi Birk and asked her to update and upgrade the information on the website regarding weapons to include the lock box reference and procedures.

    ...
    Did you offer her one of SVG's tee shirts?

  24. #24
    Regular Member rapgood's Avatar
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    I think that their policy is fine. They ASK you to either check the weapon or, in the alternative, they ASK you to notify the SPD Sgt. of "your seat location so he is aware of the location of a weapon in the seating area." If you disagree with their policy, the way I read it, you have the legal right to decline their request and not say anything. Personally, I never talk to cops (unless I'm cross-examining them) other than to ask them if I'm free to go. Why would you want to be the designated felon?

    Quote Originally Posted by badkarma View Post
    Ok, I had a conversation with Key Arena in March of this year. Their web site contradicts this email but it is fair to say they have no ambition to update the site. I removed the personnel email addresses and names to protect the innocent.
    From: Burke, Edie (SC) [mailto:Edie.BurkeSC@seattle.gov]
    Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 12:09 PM
    To: CCCC@XXXX; CCCC@CCCC
    Cc: Customer Service Desk, Seattle Center; Zhang, Chris; Blanks, Cynthia; Bryant, Barbara
    Subject:

    <NAME> and <NAME> –
    Recently, both of you have contacted Seattle Center about our Firearms Policy. I want to explain what we do at KeyArena events so there is no confusion. We ASK that ALL persons carrying concealed weapons check in at our entry doors with a staff member. The staff member contacts SPD Sgt. in the facility to speak with you. At that time, we offer a gun safe that you can leave your weapon in while you attend the event. The safe is in our security office, a security officer is always present, and, you have the only key to the safe. You can retrieve your weapon before you leave.
    OR, if that is not what you would like to do, we ASK that you provide the SPD Sgt. with your seat location so he is aware of the location of a weapon in the seating area.
    Of course, we would prefer that you leave your weapon at home if you could graciously agree to do so. However, if that is not an option, the above procedures and participation on your part is appreciated.
    Please let me know if you have any questions or concerns.
    Thanks, Edie

    Edie E. Burke
    Facility Manager
    KeyArena at Seattle Center
    305 Harrison Street
    Seattle, WA 98109
    (206) 684.7208 (office)
    edie.burkesc@seattle.gov
    Rev. Robert Apgood, Esq.

    A right cannot be lost by exercising it. McDonald v. Chicago, 561 U.S. 3025, 130 S. Ct. 3020, 3021, 177 L. Ed. 2d 894 (2010) (citing Near v. Minn., 283 U.S. 697 (1931)).

    Although IAAL, anything I say here is not legal advice. No conversations we may have privately or otherwise in this forum constitute the formation of an attorney-client relationship, and are not intended to do so.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rapgood View Post
    I think that their policy is fine. They ASK you to either check the weapon or, in the alternative, they ASK you to notify the SPD Sgt. of "your seat location so he is aware of the location of a weapon in the seating area." If you disagree with their policy, the way I read it, you have the legal right to decline their request and not say anything. Personally, I never talk to cops (unless I'm cross-examining them) other than to ask them if I'm free to go. Why would you want to be the designated felon?

    If it's a REQUEST (not a requirement) it should be stated as so. Both the website and the frequent announcements while we were waiting in line specifically said firearms were PROHIBITED, not "we ask..."
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

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