rvrctyrngr
Regular Member
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Riding a Motorcycle and OC'ing
- Thread starter carcrazycorey1
- Start date
Talesman
Regular Member
Only on non-rez property.
Talesman
Regular Member
Perhaps you know more than 2nd District Court of Appeal Chief Judge Chris W. Altenbernd. Referring to the Seminoles' Hard Rock Casino on Interstate 4, 2nd District Court of Appeal Chief Judge Chris W. Altenbernd wrote in a June 15 (2005) opinion, "This casino is not legally in Florida," even though the $100-million facility is advertised as a hotel and casino in Tampa.
"The average tourist has no idea that (his or) her constitutional rights to access to the courts and to trial by jury do not apply to any claims that may arise while (he or) she visits the hotel and casino," Altenbernd wrote. "The tribe itself does not post warnings that its tourist attraction is exempt from these basic Florida constitutional protections."
According to press reports about Judge Altenbernd's ruling "The judge felt compelled to uphold immunity, but he also was dismayed about their business practices," said Jack Gordon of Many & Gordon. "He reminds that as you step onto the Seminole property, you are stepping onto a foreign land where the protections of federal and state law no longer apply."
State law (as quoted and currently meaningless) cannot and does not supersede federal law which grants the tribes total sovereign immunity. Tried and true in every court in every state with a tribe. In Florida, even via the existing compacts, only a minuscule part of the several tribes' sovereignty has been waived and that only applies to casino operations - nothing more. In fact, the state legislature EXTENDED our state's financial immunity to the Seminoles, complete with our state's immunity cap for their casino operations. Elsewhere the NA's retain their complete immunity and tribal law governs.
What am I saying? Even though you may meet any/all state or federal guidelines for open or concealed carry for your locale - once you enter what is collectively called Indian Country those laws or rules of law NO LONGER APPLY(!!!) even though you may be physically and geographically sited within the boundaries of your county or state.
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notalawyer
Regular Member
Please provide a link to these statements. Although I'm pretty sure it relates to the gambling situation.
Again, you are totally and completely wrong.
notalawyer
Regular Member
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ADulay
Regular Member
Well, the laws appear to be changing almost daily now so what worked last year may not be the same this year. It's a sad situation, but a true one.
I basically carried OWB for most of the trip but California is the joker in the run so you have to pull the magazine, empty it, put the gun in one saddlebag, the magazine somewhere else and the ammunition somewhere else. As we carry camping equipment, the bullets wind up in the bag with the camping gear, which is all that it contains.
Your best bet is to check EACH STATE's gun laws, as much of a pain as that is, and make sure you're complying with whatever odd regulations they may have.
New Mexico was open carry all the way, so that's the easy one. As you're running I-10, Florida is self-explanatory (open carry for me!). All of the states along that route accept Florida's Concealed Permit, so you're good to go there.
On the Indian reservations, I'm always concealed, no matter what state.
Hope this helps a bit and be sure and check www.handguns.us for more current information.
AD
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Talesman
Regular Member
Take any portion of my post and GOOGLE it. It should lead to at least a 1/2 dozen or so news reports
WRONG??? Hardly.
Here's what to do. Sustain or feign a personal injury on Seminole or Miccosukee land (either trust or rez property) and then lawyer shop. Most lawyers will tell you you can't bring them to state civil court. Unknowledgeable lawyers who file will will be told by the judge that his/her court has no jurisdiction and try tribal court for any redress. If the injury was on casino property then the compact will apply, elsewhere it will not.
In Tampa, before the Seminole Casino compact was blessed by the BIA several incidents took place. One was a woman in the parking lot who was attacked and brutally raped by two assailants. The second was when a woman exited her vehicle on a stormy night (low visibility) and stepped into a parking lot pothole and shattered her ankle in multiple places.
Both attempted to sue and were rebuffed by various levels of Florida courts on sovereign immunity grounds. There was no redress for those two unfortunate women. The state statute, as you posted, was useless. As it was for several subcontractors who built portions of the Hard Rock and were never paid. At least one had a binding arbitration clause in the construction contract. He and the Seminoles attended arbitration. The Seminoles didn't like the outcome. Contractor sued and the courts (federal and state) were powerless to enforce the terms of contract as well as the arbitration ruling. I would also mention a suit for wrongful death on the premesis of the HardRock by the parents of the deceased but never followed up on the final outcome.
I, myself, was asked to consult and bid on some graphic work for the Seminole Hardrock as we did such a bang-up job for Busch Gardens on similar work. Knowing of their immunity I proposed a contract where their immunity was fully waived and if there was a dispute that Hillsborough County Circuit court would be the sole decider. That was a deal breaker for them. Their choice and they paid at least 30% more for what they got. Hope that contractor got paid in full.
I didn't expect my original post to turn into a p**sing contest - but I am comforted that it wasn't me who started same. However, I will stand by everything I have stated to-date.
notalawyer
Regular Member
The you should not have posted incorrect information about the actual law.
Then you point to a handful of unlawful activities and use those incidents to support your position, when the case law available repeatedly refutes it.
The law is clear, both State and Federal.
Like I said before, people, cities, counties, states, tribes, and yes even the Federal government violate the law frequently. What does that prove? Nothing.
Talesman
Regular Member
Are you serious? At least stay on the topic of jurisdiction.
The law is very clear. Tribes have complete police jurisdiction on their lands even though they may well allow co-concurrent jurisdiction with other non-Native American police agencies be they local, county, state or federal. Violate tribal law and get caught and you will be arrested and perhaps be the subject of a forfeiture.
I merely pointed out said jurisdiction for informational purposes. Just like many a Florida firearms carrier who dutifully follows Florida law to a 'T' can be woefully ignorant of the current federal Gun Free School Zone Act. It's nice to know before a problem arises.
notalawyer
Regular Member
Yes, the law is clear. Indian tribes do not have jurisdiction over non-Indians for violations of so-called 'tribal law', PERIOD.
In Florida, the only crimes you can be lawfully arrested for on 'Indian land' are for violations of Florida law, and possibly County ordinances if an intra-local agreement is in place between the tribe and the county.
Talesman
Regular Member
I quit.
Your take is virtually insane.
In each and every Rez in the nation non-native Americans have been arrested, booked and incarcerated for violation of tribal law by tribal police. That is a fact. I refuse to argue any more. Live in your total dream world all you care to. And if chance permits I hope to see your comments (YOU CAN"T ARREST ME, I AIN"T NO G**D*** F****G INDIAN!!!) published in Turtle Talk (probably in their humor section) or other related NA publications dealing with Indian law. That would be a hoot!
notalawyer
Regular Member
In other news, police officers and sheriff's deputies in every state have also unlawfully arrested people for activities that are not unlawful.
It's not my take. It's the position of the Supreme Court of the United States.
rvrctyrngr
Regular Member
In other news, police officers and sheriff's deputies in every state have also unlawfully arrested people for activities that are not unlawful.
It's not my take. It's the position of the Supreme Court of the United States.
You're take on the topic is spot-on, NAL....but you already knew that.
We-the-People
Regular Member
I just finished reading Oliphant. Not a "hard call" to make when the Court says this: "We granted certiorari, 431 U.S. 964, to decide whether Indian tribal courts have criminal jurisdiction over non-Indians. We decide that they do not."
If it's only a violation of indian law then they have no jurisdiction unless you're an indian. Pretty plain and simple statement from the "supremes".
If it's only a violation of indian law then they have no jurisdiction unless you're an indian. Pretty plain and simple statement from the "supremes".
Talesman
Regular Member
Tribal courts are a step and a half away from tribal police.
Let's say it is 6:00 p.m. on a Friday afternoon and you are traveling on a road through Indian country. A vehicls light is out or you are exceeding the posted speed limit. Tribal cop pulls you over. In the course of events there is an unlawful weapon or firearm, per tribal law, discovered. You are cuffed and eventually taken to a holding cell. It could concievably take all weekend to determine you are not someone subject to tribal court jusrisdiction. Even if you are not such a subject, that doesn't end the case, as you MAY be subject to state law and handed over to a local LEO. In any case, you spent all of Friday evening, all day Sat. and Sun. and part of Monday morning in custody until a factual determination of your status was made. Hope you had a fun weekend. They, like any other LEO (which they are) were only doing their job.
I have a federal license to transport certain items across the USA that are pretty much barred or banned in many states and after acquiring said license from the Criminal Division of the DOJ I was warned (inclusion as a reference with the multiple pages of paperwork) to AVOID traveling through Indian Country whenever possible, Hmmm....I wonder why they'd bother with such a edict/warning? After due dilligence and research I do know why. Part of it is about total tribal jurisdiction when in Indian Country and if they had any sort of reason to inspect my load I could be in for a world of hurt either financially or time-wise or both. It really was an admonition so as to avoid messy situations based on previous histories of other like-kind transporters.
Of course, none of that was spelled out in detail (as they do not dispense legal advice even though they are the premiere law enforcement agency in the USA - go figure!). Just a general caution/warning.
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notalawyer
Regular Member
I thought you were done
Well, let's take these one at a time.
Let's use Florida for your example, since we are in Florida....and let's pick, let's say the Seminole Indian Tribe...OK?
These are violations of Florida law.
The Seminole Indian tribe has entered into an agreement with the State of Florida, in accordance with 25 USC § 1321 (and 25 USC § 1772d) for Florida to assume both criminal and civil jurisdiction for all crimes committed in and on Indian lands by and against Indians and non-Indians alike: F.S. 285.16; Otherwise Federal law would apply (only to non-Indians.)
Florida Statutes 285.18 establishes the authority and powers of the Tribal Council and Law Enforcement agencies of the Tribe, in accordance with 25 USC § 476, specifically "To employ personnel to exercise law enforcement powers, including the investigation of violations of any of the criminal laws of the state occurring on reservations over which the state has assumed jurisdiction pursuant to s. 285.16.". This authority is granted solely based on the creation of a special improvement district within the state, not inherently because it's an Indian Tribe.
So the stop in your scenario is lawful.
Tribal law is irrelevant in this case for both Indians and non-Indians as outlined above.
No. No one in Florida is under the jurisdiction of the Tribe in this situation.
Which is specifically limited by both Federal and State law to enforcing State law. Therefore any such 'arrest'/detention would be unlawful.
So the DOJ 'warned' you to stay out of Indian lands because of the criminal activity of Indian Tribes - interesting. :uhoh:
We-the-People
Regular Member
I think the operative phrase here is
You can beat the rap but you can't beat the ride.
You can beat the rap but you can't beat the ride.