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Riding a Motorcycle and OC'ing

Dman78

New member
Joined
Nov 13, 2012
Messages
2
Location
St Pete
Well, you could say it's less illegal, :lol:
Unlawful Open Carry is a Misdemeanor. Unlawful Concealed Carry is a Felony.

Just to clarify...when at one of the locations (or going to or from) or one of the activities specified in 790.25(3) you* may lawfully carry openly or concealed in the following situations (plus a couple more):
Going to range? Open carry on foot, in car, or on motorcycle. Perfectly legal. Concealed carry on foot, in car, on motorcycle. Perfectly legal.
Going hunting, fishing or camping? Open carry on foot, in car, or on motorcycle. Perfectly legal. Concealed carry on foot, in car, on motorcycle. Perfectly legal.

Notalawyer,

Can you clarify or point me to exactly where it's stated that CONCEALED carry is legal to these activities? I've read and fully understood the OPEN carry part, but I thought per the statutes ALL CONCEALED carry is illegal without a permit, excluding home and business and encased vehicle.

Thx!!
 

notalawyer

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2012
Messages
1,061
Location
Florida
Notalawyer,

Can you clarify or point me to exactly where it's stated that CONCEALED carry is legal to these activities? I've read and fully understood the OPEN carry part, but I thought per the statutes ALL CONCEALED carry is illegal without a permit, excluding home and business and encased vehicle.

Thx!!

Sure...since we we discussing Open Carry, I failed to highlight that part. It's the same statute that permits open carry that I posted early on in the thread:

790.25 Lawful ownership, possession, and use of firearms and other weapons.—
(3) LAWFUL USES.—The provisions of ss. 790.053 and 790.06 do not apply in the following instances, and, despite such sections, it is lawful for the following persons to own, possess, and lawfully use firearms and other weapons, ammunition, and supplies for lawful purposes:
. . .
(h) A person engaged in fishing, camping, or lawful hunting or going to or returning from a fishing, camping, or lawful hunting expedition;
. . .
(j) A person firing weapons for testing or target practice under safe conditions and in a safe place not prohibited by law or going to or from such place;
(k) A person firing weapons in a safe and secure indoor range for testing and target practice;
. . .
(l) A person traveling by private conveyance when the weapon is securely encased or in a public conveyance when the weapon is securely encased and not in the person’s manual possession;
. . .
(n) A person possessing arms at his or her home or place of business
. . .
Note: Vehicle carry was further clarified when the legislature added Section 5 (posted below).

790.053 is the prohibition on Open Carry and 790.06 is the Concealed Carry License statute.
Note: the legislature should have listed 790.01 there too, just to avoid confusion (and unnecessary arrests & prosecutions only to be overturned on appeal), but the Florida Supreme Court has ruled this was the legislative intent: An individual without a license may carry concealed (and anyone may carry openly) in the situations I describe in Post #13.

One would think that the Florida legislature is getting kickbacks from the court system for providing them with so much business! The manner in which they draft these laws makes one scratch one's head in wonderment sometimes. It's either a great conspiracy or simple bureaucratic incompetence. I'll let others decide.




(5) POSSESSION IN PRIVATE CONVEYANCE.—Notwithstanding subsection (2), it is lawful and is not a violation of s. 790.01 for a person 18 years of age or older to possess a concealed firearm or other weapon for self-defense or other lawful purpose within the interior of a private conveyance, without a license, if the firearm or other weapon is securely encased or is otherwise not readily accessible for immediate use. Nothing herein contained prohibits the carrying of a legal firearm other than a handgun anywhere in a private conveyance when such firearm is being carried for a lawful use. Nothing herein contained shall be construed to authorize the carrying of a concealed firearm or other weapon on the person. This subsection shall be liberally construed in favor of the lawful use, ownership, and possession of firearms and other weapons, including lawful self-defense as provided in s. 776.012.
 
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ixtow

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
Messages
5,038
Location
Suwannee County, FL
I've done a little research and I've been trying to figure out the legalities of open carrying while on a motorcycle.

If I am going to the range, to my hunting camp, or going fishing, I can do this correct?

I do it when I'm stateside. No ill effects so far, but you can here banjos where I ride.... I doubt it'd be so uneventful in St Pete....
 

ADulay

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2008
Messages
512
Location
Punta Gorda, Florida, USA
I do it when I'm stateside. No ill effects so far, but you can here banjos where I ride.... I doubt it'd be so uneventful in St Pete....

I've done the open carry thing on the motorcycle up there in St.Pete and Tampa from time to time with no problems.

I do this every day so it's just another normal day for me.

AD
 

ixtow

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
Messages
5,038
Location
Suwannee County, FL
I am not a lawyer, but I highly doubt that any "no guns" rule in your lease could possibly hold any water, legally. That's.....odd....

They can't. I've been through this personally in Florida. No contract can deprive you of the Bill of Rights. Well, except maybe Obama Contract of Existing.

I had an Apartment Complex physically remove my property and leave it at the side of the road while I was at work based on their 'no guns' lease. Including my guns, still loaded. I haven't had to go back to work for a long time...

You can only 'sign your rights away' when dealing with The State. No private entity can strip you of them, even if you agree to it.
 

carcrazycorey1

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2012
Messages
15
Location
Gainesville, Florida
They can't. I've been through this personally in Florida. No contract can deprive you of the Bill of Rights. Well, except maybe Obama Contract of Existing.

I had an Apartment Complex physically remove my property and leave it at the side of the road while I was at work based on their 'no guns' lease. Including my guns, still loaded. I haven't had to go back to work for a long time...

You can only 'sign your rights away' when dealing with The State. No private entity can strip you of them, even if you agree to it.

So even if they were to find out I have guns they couldn't kick me out?
 

ixtow

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
Messages
5,038
Location
Suwannee County, FL
So even if they were to find out I have guns they couldn't kick me out?

They can refuse to renew your lease, but if they take any action based on their illegitimate lease, they bone themselves.

Some will even pay you to leave if they are anti-gun enough, lols.

If they're big enough ********, expect them to find any excuse and screw with you any way they can... But if they didn't it wouldn't be any fun!
 
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Jake8x7

Activist Member
Joined
Dec 14, 2011
Messages
109
Location
DeLand, FL
Don't be afraid to securely encase your firearm in a saddlebag; if that's not the interior, then they want you to toss it in the gas tank. I wouldn't want to live in a world like that.
 
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ADulay

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2008
Messages
512
Location
Punta Gorda, Florida, USA
Don't be afraid to securely encase your firearm in a saddlebag; if that's not the interior, then they want you to toss it in the gas tank. I wouldn't want to live in a world like that.

When traveling through the states where I HAVE to conceal the gun, I've always used the saddlebags for the guns and the tank bag for the magazines.

Luckily when I get west of the Mississippi, it doesn't come up a lot!

AD (Illinois still bites when headed to Sturgis though)
 

interceptor430

New member
Joined
Mar 11, 2013
Messages
1
Location
Midway
When traveling through the states where I HAVE to conceal the gun, I've always used the saddlebags for the guns and the tank bag for the magazines.

Luckily when I get west of the Mississippi, it doesn't come up a lot!

AD (Illinois still bites when headed to Sturgis though)

ADulay,
Noob here, and I joined just yesterday.

I'm planning a cross country ride in May, actually the IBA 50 CC - Jax to SD, and wish to pack some heat...
I'd like to know where my pistol needs to be stored as I ride I-10 westbound from Jacksonville to San Diego.
Have you come across this info?
Thanks in Advance.
 

Talesman

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2013
Messages
38
Location
Pinellas County
ADulay,
Noob here, and I joined just yesterday.

I'm planning a cross country ride in May, actually the IBA 50 CC - Jax to SD, and wish to pack some heat...
I'd like to know where my pistol needs to be stored as I ride I-10 westbound from Jacksonville to San Diego.
Have you come across this info?
Thanks in Advance.

Start here: http://www.handgunlaw.us

Federal laws on transporting firearms is very specific. But what folks don't know is that a journey taking you through Indian land, even if you never leave the state or federal highway which transverses same, local Indian tribal law applies and that law could be more severe (such as having to disassemble the sidearm).
 

notalawyer

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2012
Messages
1,061
Location
Florida
Start here: http://www.handgunlaw.us

Federal laws on transporting firearms is very specific. But what folks don't know is that a journey taking you through Indian land, even if you never leave the state or federal highway which transverses same, local Indian tribal law applies and that law could be more severe (such as having to disassemble the sidearm).

Not true at all!

Tribal 'laws' do not apply to non-Indians anywhere in the country.

Indian Tribes do not have jurisdiction over non-Indians. This was settled in a US Supreme Court ruling way back in 1978,
Oliphant v. Suquamish Tribe, 435 US 191 - Supreme Court 1978
. . .
We recognize that some Indian tribal court systems have become increasingly sophisticated and resemble in many respects their state counterparts. We also acknowledge that with the passage of the Indian Civil Rights Act of 1968, which extends certain basic procedural rights to anyone tried in Indian tribal court, many of the dangers that might have accompanied the exercise by tribal courts of criminal jurisdiction over non-Indians only a few decades ago have disappeared. Finally, we are not unaware of the prevalence of non-Indian crime on today's reservations which the tribes forcefully argue requires the ability to try non-Indians. But these are considerations for Congress to weigh in deciding whether Indian tribes should finally be authorized to try non-Indians. They have little relevance to the principles which lead us to conclude that Indian tribes do not have inherent jurisdiction to try and to punish non-Indians.
. . .

Now whether Federal or state criminal law applies on tribal lands depends entirely on whether each state assumed criminal jurisdiction as permitted under 25 USC 1321 upon agreement with the tribe. But tribal laws definitely do no apply to non-Indians!
 
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Talesman

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2013
Messages
38
Location
Pinellas County
Not true at all!

Tribal 'laws' do not apply to non-Indians anywhere in the country.

Indian Tribes do not have jurisdiction over non-Indians. This was settled in a US Supreme Court ruling way back in 1978,
Oliphant v. Suquamish Tribe, 435 US 191 - Supreme Court 1978


Now whether Federal or state criminal law applies on tribal lands depends entirely on whether each state assumed criminal jurisdiction as permitted under 25 USC 1321 upon agreement with the tribe. But tribal laws definitely do no apply to non-Indians!

You are technically correct. But the day-to-day facts and actualities are 180 out from any court rulings.

Let's get to the nitty gritty.

Tribal land is sovereign. Enter Indian Country and it is the same as going to Canada, Mrexico or China w/o the need for a passport. They have their own law enforcement.

Your state-issued carry permit, regardless of where issued or by what entity, is NOT VALID on tribal land. That is case law as well as tribal law.

I am going to quote from a friend's blog:
One general rule that actually does exist should be properly understood by all firearms owners visiting Indian lands. This “general rule” is that, for the most part, Indian tribal courts have no jurisdiction over non-Indians. The U.S. Supreme Court unambiguously reached this conclusion in its 1978 Oliphant decision that remains the law of the land. Unfortunately, it is widely misunderstood and recited on various concealed carry firearms websites.

Many of the blogs and websites omit the crucial exceptions to this general rule. Just because the tribal courts do not have jurisdiction over non-Indians, does not mean you have free reign to carry on their lands. Tribal police can stop, detain and eject you, while keeping your guns and ammunition. Even if they do so incorrectly or unlawfully, your recourse may be extremely limited.


Tribal police can stop, detain and eject you, while keeping your guns and ammunition.

The federal courts have made very clear that, although non-Indians cannot be criminally charged in tribal courts, the tribal police can exercise almost all of their law enforcement functions over non-Indians. If you violate Indian gun laws, you can expect to be stopped, detained and questioned. It is also permissible for the tribal law enforcement to eject you from the Indian lands.


This can result in extraordinarily harsh consequences. For example, in United States v. Terry, the tribal police arrested a non-Indian for unlawful possession of a firearm. He was arrested on a number of tribal charges, had his ammunition and firearm seized, spent the night in jail and was then transported 80 miles to a state law enforcement official. No doubt, Mr. Terry found little comfort in the fact that the tribe had “no jurisdiction” over him.

Further, the tribal police can hold you while they investigate your status as a non-Indian to see if they actually have jurisdiction. In U.S. v. Keys, Mr. Keys, a non-Indian, was kept in jail for 3 days during this process. The court ultimately ruled that this was too long, but this would obviously be of almost no consolation after spending 3 nights in custody.

A more complicated issue is the seizure of your weapon and ammunition. The confiscation of your weapon could technically be the wrongful seizure of your property. Unfortunately, your only remedy would be go to the tribal court and ask for its return. For the most part, you cannot go to a state court to ask a judge to release it to you (even if you could, the attorneys’ fees and filing fees could easily exceed the value of the firearm).


The important point here is that the general rule – Indian tribes lack jurisdiction over non-Indians – means very little in the context of carrying a weapon on Indian lands. At most it means you will be spared significant prison time on the reservation. At worst it means your arrest, detention, the loss of your firearm and ammunition, and your eventual transportation to state law enforcement for prosecution. This will vary tribe to tribe and state to state, so please do your research before attempting to carry your gun on Indian lands.

I personally got interested in the tribal land thing when I saw a documentary either on Discovery or Nat. Geographic where a citizen was stopped for a minor traffic offense on Indian Land, but while on a state highway that transversed same, (somewhere in the SW USA) and he was arrested, cuffed, turned over to the state police and subsequently ticketed and the driver ended up paying a $174 fine to the tribe for improper display (or whatever) of a firearm. Tribal law required the pistol to be disassembled during transport. Indian cops have full arrest power on their sovereign land regardless of who you are. Also witness what the FL Miccosukee tribe in the Big Cypress (Tamiami Trail-U.S. 41) were doing a few years ago (under the guise of "homeland security") and where both Tal and Miami-Dade had no power to stop them.
 

notalawyer

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2012
Messages
1,061
Location
Florida
You are technically correct. But the day-to-day facts and actualities are 180 out from any court rulings.

Let's get to the nitty gritty.

Tribal land is sovereign. Enter Indian Country and it is the same as going to Canada, Mrexico or China w/o the need for a passport. They have their own law enforcement.

Your state-issued carry permit, regardless of where issued or by what entity, is NOT VALID on tribal land. That is case law as well as tribal law.

I am going to quote from a friend's blog:
One general rule that actually does exist should be properly understood by all firearms owners visiting Indian lands. This “general rule” is that, for the most part, Indian tribal courts have no jurisdiction over non-Indians. The U.S. Supreme Court unambiguously reached this conclusion in its 1978 Oliphant decision that remains the law of the land. Unfortunately, it is widely misunderstood and recited on various concealed carry firearms websites.

Many of the blogs and websites omit the crucial exceptions to this general rule. Just because the tribal courts do not have jurisdiction over non-Indians, does not mean you have free reign to carry on their lands. Tribal police can stop, detain and eject you, while keeping your guns and ammunition. Even if they do so incorrectly or unlawfully, your recourse may be extremely limited.


Tribal police can stop, detain and eject you, while keeping your guns and ammunition.

The federal courts have made very clear that, although non-Indians cannot be criminally charged in tribal courts, the tribal police can exercise almost all of their law enforcement functions over non-Indians. If you violate Indian gun laws, you can expect to be stopped, detained and questioned. It is also permissible for the tribal law enforcement to eject you from the Indian lands.


This can result in extraordinarily harsh consequences. For example, in United States v. Terry, the tribal police arrested a non-Indian for unlawful possession of a firearm. He was arrested on a number of tribal charges, had his ammunition and firearm seized, spent the night in jail and was then transported 80 miles to a state law enforcement official. No doubt, Mr. Terry found little comfort in the fact that the tribe had “no jurisdiction” over him.

Further, the tribal police can hold you while they investigate your status as a non-Indian to see if they actually have jurisdiction. In U.S. v. Keys, Mr. Keys, a non-Indian, was kept in jail for 3 days during this process. The court ultimately ruled that this was too long, but this would obviously be of almost no consolation after spending 3 nights in custody.

A more complicated issue is the seizure of your weapon and ammunition. The confiscation of your weapon could technically be the wrongful seizure of your property. Unfortunately, your only remedy would be go to the tribal court and ask for its return. For the most part, you cannot go to a state court to ask a judge to release it to you (even if you could, the attorneys’ fees and filing fees could easily exceed the value of the firearm).


The important point here is that the general rule – Indian tribes lack jurisdiction over non-Indians – means very little in the context of carrying a weapon on Indian lands. At most it means you will be spared significant prison time on the reservation. At worst it means your arrest, detention, the loss of your firearm and ammunition, and your eventual transportation to state law enforcement for prosecution. This will vary tribe to tribe and state to state, so please do your research before attempting to carry your gun on Indian lands.

I personally got interested in the tribal land thing when I saw a documentary either on Discovery or Nat. Geographic where a citizen was stopped for a minor traffic offense on Indian Land, but while on a state highway that transversed same, (somewhere in the SW USA) and he was arrested, cuffed, turned over to the state police and subsequently ticketed and the driver ended up paying a $174 fine to the tribe for improper display (or whatever) of a firearm. Tribal law required the pistol to be disassembled during transport. Indian cops have full arrest power on their sovereign land regardless of who you are. Also witness what the FL Miccosukee tribe in the Big Cypress (Tamiami Trail-U.S. 41) were doing a few years ago (under the guise of "homeland security") and where both Tal and Miami-Dade had no power to stop them.

Tribal land is sovereign. Enter Indian Country and it is the same as going to Canada, Mrexico or China w/o the need for a passport.
No it's not, not even close!

Tribal police can stop, detain and eject you, while keeping your guns and ammunition.
Illegally, sure. But so can anyone else that you allow to do so.

Posting a bunch of other illegal activities performed by Indians authorities does not change the facts. LEO all over the country do the same things all the time.

In Florida, Florida criminal and Civil laws apply to everyone Indian and non-Indians alike.
 
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