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Thread: Intro and Question

  1. #1
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    Intro and Question

    Hello All,

    I have been CC'n for a few years with no problems, I know were I can and can not carry.
    Now that i have started OC'n there are places the Mrs like to frequent that have gun buster signs up. In the past it still carried there being that i was concealed and if asked to leave i would. (has never happened) Now that OC is in effect do the rules of gunbuster signs change. I understood that the gunbuster sign was there but not legally enforcable and as long as it was CC it was perfectly legal unless i refused to leave if asked to vacate their property. Does this still hold true? As much as i prefer not to spend money in these establishments the wife wants what the wife wants.

    Thanks Heavyweight

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    Quote Originally Posted by heavyweight_4u View Post
    Hello All,

    I have been CC'n for a few years with no problems, I know were I can and can not carry.
    Now that i have started OC'n there are places the Mrs like to frequent that have gun buster signs up. In the past it still carried there being that i was concealed and if asked to leave i would. (has never happened) Now that OC is in effect do the rules of gunbuster signs change. I understood that the gunbuster sign was there but not legally enforcable and as long as it was CC it was perfectly legal unless i refused to leave if asked to vacate their property. Does this still hold true? As much as i prefer not to spend money in these establishments the wife wants what the wife wants.

    Thanks Heavyweight
    First off, it was never "perfectly legal" to carry past a gunbuster sign. Lots of people did it because concealed means concealed, right? Once past a gunbuster sign if someone saw you they would generally ask you to leave and if you didn't, that would constitute trespass.

    However different municipalities define trespass in different ways. Here is the one from Tulsa:

    Quote Originally Posted by Tulsa trespassing code
    Section 2106. - Trespassing

    Trespassing is hereby declared to be an offense and shall be defined as follows:
    A. Each and every actual entry upon the premises of another person's real property, public or private, without the owner's or occupant's consent thereof, whether expressed or implied;
    B. Each and every entry upon any public or private premises which is posted or where warning has been published to stay out of and off the premises;
    C. Each and every entry in or upon any public property, except at times and upon conditions when it is subject to public use;
    D. The use of any public building, except for the purpose of transacting business with a public corporation, unless the manner, purpose and extent of its use is first presented to and the consent given by the City of Tulsa;
    E. Remaining upon the premises of another, whether public or private, and refusing to leave the premises forthwith after demand by the owner or occupant;
    F. Remaining upon any property owned by or in the possession of the Tulsa Public School System or any parochial school in the City of Tulsa after such person has been requested to leave and vacate such school premises by any faculty member, principal, duly licensed security guard or police officer unless permission has been given by a faculty member, principal or designated school employee;
    G. Remaining on private property at any time other than during posted hours of business operation after having been directed to vacate such premises by a police officer; provided, however, that the provisions to this subsection shall not apply to persons, including employees, whose presence upon such premises is authorized by the owner or by a person in lawful possession of such premises; nor shall the provisions of this subsection apply unless hours of business operation are posted upon such premises; or
    H. Returning to private property before the posted time of opening for business operation on the next business day after having been directed to vacate such premises under the terms of Subsection 2106.G.
    It is my interpretation that if you carry a firearm past a gunbuster sign in Tulsa and are in violation of item A since you have entered the property without the owner's consent (they don't want you carrying and you are).
    As such, you are then trespassing and could be arrested without notice.

    Again, this is my personal opinion and everyone in their dog will argue that I am wrong because somewhere this "you have to be asked first" stuff became gospel as the only means for being charged with trespass.
    From what I understand the guy that had a ND in the medical center in Tulsa was charged with trespassing and he was not asked to leave.
    I am not a lawyer and nothing I say should be accepted as legal advice

  3. #3
    Regular Member metz's Avatar
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    ...^...very good info, it was explained to me by a leo that oc in a place with sighns restricting it was as stated before, tresspassing, and was further explained as follows...say a buisness was to have a problem with a patron that came in to their place of buisness and caused some kind of disturbince, that person may be banned from entering that place by the owner/manager, there for if that person returned, they would be trespassing and police would be contacted and most likley said person would be arrested or cited, and the leo said its the same basic principal, if the sighn is up and u enter its the same as the banned patron, i'v lucked out and most of the places i frequent dont have gun busters up, but the ones that do i will make clear to them i will not return to do buisness till the sighn is removed..

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    Thanks for the feed back, wasnt there supposed to be a specific sign that was to be posted for it to be legal?
    I cannot recall from my CC class which was very lacking in the information department. But they had mentioned technically the store owner or property owner we suppposed to place a specfic sign in designated entrances? Is this all BS or was there any half truths to this? I would never argue with someone over an issue like that but its nice to learn the actuallities of what i was supposed to be taught.

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    Quote Originally Posted by heavyweight_4u View Post
    Thanks for the feed back, wasnt there supposed to be a specific sign that was to be posted for it to be legal?
    I cannot recall from my CC class which was very lacking in the information department. But they had mentioned technically the store owner or property owner we suppposed to place a specfic sign in designated entrances? Is this all BS or was there any half truths to this? I would never argue with someone over an issue like that but its nice to learn the actuallities of what i was supposed to be taught.
    There is no requirement to post a sign at all. However if a business does post signage, they should be at all entrances and in conspicuous locations so they can be easily seen. There is also no requirement that a sign be a specific size or contain specific verbage.

    A piece of paper, with the words "No Guns" written in green crayon by the owners 8 year old and taped to the door is sufficient for OK law.
    I am not a lawyer and nothing I say should be accepted as legal advice

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    I would take issue with a sign that does not say you would be a trespasser that does not specifically say so...

  7. #7
    Regular Member Glock 1st fan's Avatar
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    Coming from years of law enforcement I can give my experience as from the eyes of a LEO. Now we all as Oklahomans know the laws of carrying firearms so we as residents know that we do not allow firearms inside of Courthouses. Now while we know the law someone who may be traveling from another state would not know ours inside and out and perhaps would not know that you could not carry into said place. However when the non resident comes to the courthouse he would be greeted by the infamous signs that are placard all over the windows and the walls. It would be very clear at that point that firearms are strictly forbidden.

    Now when you look at a firearm it is a part of our lives and to many of us it becomes indivisible. So we then have a choice. It does not say on the door "Gun owners not welcome" It simply states "No Firearms" So the place of business is giving us a clear choice. choice 1 is place the firearm in your car or other secure location (Sometimes jails and such have lock boxes not that a civlian would use these but hospitals have options to leave them with security and check them out when you leave as well as many other places" Cleary once this request has been completed the owner not disarmed would be more then welcome as any other patron. Choice 2. is we can choose not to disarm and at that point in accordance with stated policy our presence would no longer be welcome.

    Now here is where things do get tricky though is when it goes to court unless something of epic proportion happens (Such as the guy who dropped his derringer in the Tulsa Hospital and it discharged) most cases would simply be a pissed off property owner demanding you leave. In the event of the hospital incident though because of his negligence and wreckless handling of a firearm they did tack on trespassing


    the sign itself does not define if we are breaking the law up to that point it simply states that we have to make a choice and if we chose not to disarm we are not welcome and thus would have to leave the location in question. Now while we can not be arrested for having firearms in our cars we can however be arrested for trespassing at anytime we have been informed we are not welcome. Remember too when the property says no firearms it covers the parking lot too. (Again the possesion in the car is not illegal but our unwanted presence can be) This could prove questionable though with the parking lot but if there is a sign no loitering it would clear cut the issue.

    Our these things concrete? No as there are circumstances that will arise. For example you send your wife in to the store and you wait outside in your car. You would be legitamit and within your rights at that point. There are so many more circumstances that we could literaly point out this and that but my intent is simply to give an idea over a broad spectrum.

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