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Thread: How not to open carry

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    How not to open carry

    so a couple of users lately have stated some things that just show really being too extreme, someone was saying that there's nothing suspicious about filming people late at night while wearing masks, and of course there's always the "well they aren't breaking any laws by doing.... x, y ,z" or "proactive enforcement is unconstitutional"

    to those types, I have one question, would want this fellow walking around town, you would feel completely ok seeing this guy hiking around... wherever...



    See now would it be reasonable to presume an individual like this is up to no good? just because something isn't technically illegal doesn't mean it can't be used as RAS for a terry stop.

    Most people here don't do stuff like this, and the founders of the website don't seem to encourage this sort of thing, although I can't speak for them, however IMO and it's been said before, people who push the limits to provoke responses are only undercutting the very rights that they claim to be exercising. kind of like the guy in Oregon several months ago walking around town with an MP-5 or someone here who get detained while carrying two pistols, a walking cane and an AR.


    EDIT I'll take my pic with a better camera and repost it later
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    Last edited by EMNofSeattle; 11-27-2012 at 09:37 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    so a couple of users lately have stated some things that just show really being too extreme, someone was saying that there's nothing suspicious about filming people late at night while wearing masks, and of course there's always the "well they aren't breaking any laws by doing.... x, y ,z" or "proactive enforcement is unconstitutional"

    to those types, I have one question, would want this fellow walking around town, you would feel completely ok seeing this guy hiking around... wherever...



    See now would it be reasonable to presume an individual like this is up to no good? just because something isn't technically illegal doesn't mean it can't be used as RAS
    I don't think anyone ever said that an officer has to personally witness an illegal act in order to have RAS to conduct a Terry stop. If they have, then they would have been completely wrong.

    However, an officer must have Reasonable Articulate Suspicion that a crime is "afoot."

    Someone walking down the street at 1 a.m. would not lead someone to believe that a crime is afoot -- unless of course there were aggrevating circumstances. It would not stand scrutiny if an officer stated the reason he stopped someone was because they were walking down the street late at night.

    If that same person was walking down the street, acting suspicious and wearing a ski-mask when it is 70 degrees outside then it would constitute RAS to conduct a stop.

    I cannot see the picture you have loaded onto the post, so I cannot comment on it.
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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    I don't think anyone ever said that an officer has to personally witness an illegal act in order to have RAS to conduct a Terry stop. If they have, then they would have been completely wrong.

    However, an officer must have Reasonable Articulate Suspicion that a crime is "afoot."

    Someone walking down the street at 1 a.m. would not lead someone to believe that a crime is afoot -- unless of course there were aggrevating circumstances. It would not stand scrutiny if an officer stated the reason he stopped someone was because they were walking down the street late at night.

    If that same person was walking down the street, acting suspicious and wearing a ski-mask when it is 70 degrees outside then it would constitute RAS to conduct a stop.

    I cannot see the picture you have loaded onto the post, so I cannot comment on it.
    Oh just for an example I posted a picture of myself (in my house) wearing a ski-mask, a gore tex woodland cammo jacket, while carrying a radio and revolver on a gunbelt and an AR with all sorts of gadgets on a tactical sling.

    just to make a hyperbole example, some people seem to want to push the limits and scare people and that's destructive to the gun rights movement.

    I'll retake the pic with a better camera and re-post it later.
    Last edited by EMNofSeattle; 11-27-2012 at 09:38 PM.
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    Looks to me like you just were at the movie Psycho, and are now taking precautions in the bathroom.

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    If you were walking down the street just like you are in the picture then I believe it would justify RAS. Would I stop you? No, not unless I felt strongly that you were doing something illegal. But, I do believe the courts would accept an officer's word that he believed a crime may have been afoot if you were stopped dressed as you are in the picture.

    The guy that was stopped for carrying two revolvers should not have been stopped.

    The guy carrying the "fake" MP5 should not have been stopped either. Neither of these individuals were committing a crime, nor were they acting like they were about to or like they had already done so. Carrying a firearm that looks like an NFA item should not constitute RAS to conduct a stop unless the officer has REASON to believe the firearm is an actual NFA item that is illegal to possess without the proper tax stamp. The officer could have got close enough to tell the difference, or could have simply asked without depriving someone of their rights. It is simple to discern between the two, especially by looking at the magazine.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

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    Re: How not to open carry

    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    so a couple of users lately have stated some things that just show really being too extreme, someone was saying that there's nothing suspicious about filming people late at night while wearing masks, and of course there's always the "well they aren't breaking any laws by doing.... x, y ,z" or "proactive enforcement is unconstitutional"

    to those types, I have one question, would want this fellow walking around town, you would feel completely ok seeing this guy hiking around... wherever...



    See now would it be reasonable to presume an individual like this is up to no good? just because something isn't technically illegal doesn't mean it can't be used as RAS for a terry stop.

    Most people here don't do stuff like this, and the founders of the website don't seem to encourage this sort of thing, although I can't speak for them, however IMO and it's been said before, people who push the limits to provoke responses are only undercutting the very rights that they claim to be exercising. kind of like the guy in Oregon several months ago walking around town with an MP-5 or someone here who get detained while carrying two pistols, a walking cane and an AR.


    EDIT I'll take my pic with a better camera and repost it later
    There used to be a time where me walking around at night as a brown skinned fellow was considered suspicious.

    I'm pretty sure its used as RAS for many Terry stops to this day.

    Glad to know you approve...

    I love agitators. They are the reason we have freedom...

    Just saying.

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    Last edited by Anonymouse; 11-27-2012 at 11:17 PM.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ca Patriot View Post
    In California it would be illegal to walk around...
    No need to get more specific...
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouse View Post
    There used to be a time where me walking around at night as a brown skinned fellow was considered suspicious.

    I'm pretty sure its used as RAS for many Terry stops to this day.

    Glad to know you approve...

    I love agitators. They are the reason we have freedom...

    Just saying.

    /sarcasm

    Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
    But that was just good proactive police work, you shouldn't be in certain neighbors, its suspicious........(mega sarcasm),

    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    so a couple of users lately have stated some things that just show really being too extreme, someone was saying that there's nothing suspicious about filming people late at night while wearing masks, and of course there's always the "well they aren't breaking any laws by doing.... x, y ,z" or "proactive enforcement is unconstitutional"
    1. Who are you or anyone to decide what is "too extreme" ? use of subjective words like this bugs me, because way too many people like yourself rely on these definitions provided by whom? Tyranny throughout the ages has used this demagoguery to keep people in line for ages. (I recognize the owners of this site can decide what is put on their private property though).

    2. Your suspicion or a cops suspicion does not trump peoples rights. Now the courts have watered down the 4th and have given cops leeway with RAS, but this is not as low of a standard as you think.

    3. IF they are not breaking the laws by doing x, y, z then why are saying they should be stopped, I thought you were against "loopholes"?

    4. I still contend proactive law enforcement is unconstitutional, you have not shown me this authority granted in the constitution, just because you like it doesn't mean its right.

    to those types, I have one question, would want this fellow walking around town, you would feel completely ok seeing this guy hiking around... wherever...



    See now would it be reasonable to presume an individual like this is up to no good? just because something isn't technically illegal doesn't mean it can't be used as RAS for a terry stop.

    My opinion personally is until he does something illegal, it really doesn't concern me other than keeping an eye out.

    Most people here don't do stuff like this, and the founders of the website don't seem to encourage this sort of thing, although I can't speak for them, however IMO and it's been said before, people who push the limits to provoke responses are only undercutting the very rights that they claim to be exercising. kind of like the guy in Oregon several months ago walking around town with an MP-5 or someone here who get detained while carrying two pistols, a walking cane and an AR.
    Again with the subjective use language to demonize opinions that don't fall in line.. I can give you a long list of people who "pushed the limits" and won greater freedoms for society. So Rosa Parks shouldn't have road that bus if she didn't like that system or she should have just sat where she was expected too?

    Free speech isn't just to say state approved or socially approved things, it is there so that you can't stop our use of words to express ideas you find "extreme".

    But to address your misleading Topic, no I don't think we should OC that way.
    Last edited by sudden valley gunner; 11-28-2012 at 09:42 AM.
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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Discussion of open carry of rifles will not be discussed on this forum. This forum is only about the open carry of pistols/handguns and only those pistols/handguns of which the moderator approves.

    That being said, take the picture again without the rifle and then it's free for discussion.

    So with the rifle, do to the fact your hand is on the 'pistol grip' it would be construed, in Washington, as carrying in such a way ... so as to intimidate.

    Now without the rifle presuming you can keep your hands off the weapons until they are needed, then I see no problems with going for a walk dressed like that, it's getting chilly outside.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    so a couple of users lately have stated some things that just show really being too extreme, someone was saying that there's nothing suspicious about filming people late at night while wearing masks, and of course there's always the "well they aren't breaking any laws by doing.... x, y ,z" or "proactive enforcement is unconstitutional"

    to those types, I have one question, would want this fellow walking around town, you would feel completely ok seeing this guy hiking around... wherever...



    See now would it be reasonable to presume an individual like this is up to no good? just because something isn't technically illegal doesn't mean it can't be used as RAS for a terry stop.

    Most people here don't do stuff like this, and the founders of the website don't seem to encourage this sort of thing, although I can't speak for them, however IMO and it's been said before, people who push the limits to provoke responses are only undercutting the very rights that they claim to be exercising. kind of like the guy in Oregon several months ago walking around town with an MP-5 or someone here who get detained while carrying two pistols, a walking cane and an AR.


    EDIT I'll take my pic with a better camera and repost it later
    I walk around with two pistols and a cane~~so what? If that scares someone that is their problem not mine, and it is not RAS!

    PS I also wear glasses~~cue scary music...
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    so a couple of users lately have stated some things that just show really being too extreme, someone was saying that there's nothing suspicious about filming people late at night while wearing masks, and of course there's always the "well they aren't breaking any laws by doing.... x, y ,z" or "proactive enforcement is unconstitutional" ....................


    ...........See now would it be reasonable to presume an individual like this is up to no good? just because something isn't technically illegal doesn't mean it can't be used as RAS for a terry stop............

    In the video to which you are referring the "officers" did much more than a simple terry stop, it was more like a "felony stop".

    At least one "officer" threatened to kill at least on of the individuals. (when one points a firearm at another, in my book they are threatening to kill that person)

    Had the "officers" simply walked up to the individuals and engaged them in conversation to investigate the situation that would have been reasonable. Immediately threatening their lives was not reasonable.
    A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.- Thomas Jefferson March 4 1801

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    Quote Originally Posted by END_THE_FED View Post
    In the video to which you are referring the "officers" did much more than a simple terry stop, it was more like a "felony stop".

    At least one "officer" threatened to kill at least on of the individuals. (when one points a firearm at another, in my book they are threatening to kill that person)

    Had the "officers" simply walked up to the individuals and engaged them in conversation to investigate the situation that would have been reasonable. Immediately threatening their lives was not reasonable.
    +1
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by END_THE_FED View Post
    In the video to which you are referring the "officers" did much more than a simple terry stop, it was more like a "felony stop".

    At least one "officer" threatened to kill at least on of the individuals. (when one points a firearm at another, in my book they are threatening to kill that person)

    Had the "officers" simply walked up to the individuals and engaged them in conversation to investigate the situation that would have been reasonable. Immediately threatening their lives was not reasonable.
    Which video did I reference? The Oregon and MP-5 incident was nothing like what you described.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    Which video did I reference? The Oregon and MP-5 incident was nothing like what you described.
    When you mentioned filming people while wearing masks I thought you were referring to the video posted in this thread..... http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...o-taping-video

    If I am wrong, please accept my apology.
    Last edited by END_THE_FED; 11-28-2012 at 10:09 PM.
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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by END_THE_FED View Post
    When you mentioned filming people while wearing masks I thought you were referring to the video posted in this thread..... http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...o-taping-video

    If I am wrong, please accept my apology.
    Well I did in fact reference the California incident that CA patriot put up, so in the interest of fairness you were right.

    I also didn't read the part where you stated in your opinion that drawing down on the subject constituted a threat, I was back and forth listening to that vid trying to find where the officer said he was going to kill them, then I re-read your post. obviously I didn't read yours correctly, it is I who owes the apology.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    Well I did in fact reference the California incident that CA patriot put up, so in the interest of fairness you were right.

    I also didn't read the part where you stated in your opinion that drawing down on the subject constituted a threat, I was back and forth listening to that vid trying to find where the officer said he was going to kill them, then I re-read your post. obviously I didn't read yours correctly, it is I who owes the apology.

    No apology necessary.
    A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.- Thomas Jefferson March 4 1801

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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    so a couple of users lately have stated some things that just show really being too extreme, someone was saying that there's nothing suspicious about filming people late at night while wearing masks, and of course there's always the "well they aren't breaking any laws by doing.... x, y ,z" or "proactive enforcement is unconstitutional"

    to those types, I have one question, would want this fellow walking around town, you would feel completely ok seeing this guy hiking around... wherever...

    See now would it be reasonable to presume an individual like this is up to no good? just because something isn't technically illegal doesn't mean it can't be used as RAS for a terry stop.

    Most people here don't do stuff like this, and the founders of the website don't seem to encourage this sort of thing, although I can't speak for them, however IMO and it's been said before, people who push the limits to provoke responses are only undercutting the very rights that they claim to be exercising. kind of like the guy in Oregon several months ago walking around town with an MP-5 or someone here who get detained while carrying two pistols, a walking cane and an AR.

    EDIT I'll take my pic with a better camera and repost it later
    Situation/location dependent. I have dressed just like that (not that cheesy camo pattern by the way ) and gone in for coffee on the way to do some hunting.

    In a urban setting I certainly expect to be stopped regardless of the legality of stop. That is what cops do. Outside of urban areas, the burbs, I expect the same treatment from LE, regardless of the legality of the stop. That is what cops do.

    In the country, I expect to be stopped by LE simply because that cop on that day is likely jealous that he ain't dressed like me, stopping for coffee, on the way to do some hunting. I have never, ever, been stopped by any LEO when dressed like that.
    I guess that those LEOs just assumed that I was not a threat based on the totality of the circumstances .

    Their urban/burbs counterparts may learn a thing or two if they were to spend a week or two out in the country with the local deputy.

    Just this past Thanksgiving I stopped in for a coffee at a cross roads C-store. I was on my four-wheeler on the way to a tree stand, I own a large farm. A local deputy (didn't know this one) noticed the XD on my right hip, my bolt action rifle on my left shoulder (not leaving a $1200 gun and scope on the four wheeler), and a camo face mask covering my face (high 20s that morning). All he wanted to know was if I had seen any nice bucks the last couple of days, he has only seen does. I guess folks out in the country are just a bit weird about guns and masked men.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Situation/location dependent. I have dressed just like that (not that cheesy camo pattern by the way ) and gone in for coffee on the way to do some hunting.

    In a urban setting I certainly expect to be stopped regardless of the legality of stop. That is what cops do. Outside of urban areas, the burbs, I expect the same treatment from LE, regardless of the legality of the stop. That is what cops do.

    In the country, I expect to be stopped by LE simply because that cop on that day is likely jealous that he ain't dressed like me, stopping for coffee, on the way to do some hunting. I have never, ever, been stopped by any LEO when dressed like that.
    I guess that those LEOs just assumed that I was not a threat based on the totality of the circumstances .

    Their urban/burbs counterparts may learn a thing or two if they were to spend a week or two out in the country with the local deputy.

    Just this past Thanksgiving I stopped in for a coffee at a cross roads C-store. I was on my four-wheeler on the way to a tree stand, I own a large farm. A local deputy (didn't know this one) noticed the XD on my right hip, my bolt action rifle on my left shoulder (not leaving a $1200 gun and scope on the four wheeler), and a camo face mask covering my face (high 20s that morning). All he wanted to know was if I had seen any nice bucks the last couple of days, he has only seen does. I guess folks out in the country are just a bit weird about guns and masked men.
    Well remember RAS is heavily fact dependent.

    camo with a rifle and a mask on a cold day in hunting season in a rural or forested area or in a business near such an area wouldn't constitute RAS, it's obvious you're hunting. now depending upon your state you might be subject to warrantless search, in Washington Fish and Wildlife officers and DNR enforcement officers can search you without your consent to check your hunting license and see if any poached animals are on you. At least that's what I was told in hunters ed, I have no idea about the case law backing this up, I'll look it up if I ever go hunting. but a local sheriff's deputy can reasonably infer you're hunting with those circumstances.


    if you're in the middle of a suburban subdivision miles from the forest, or in a downtown city area.... I'm almost certain officers can stop you and it would be ruled reasonable...

    Rural area
    rifle=he's hunting or hiking
    mask=it's cold outside, he's going to be out for a few hours looking for an elk
    pistol=who cares? everyone owns guns here

    urban area
    Rifle="hmmm what's this guy up to"
    mask=he doesn't want witnesses to be able to ID him or he's wanted and hiding his identity
    pistol=in combination with mask and rifle... do we have another James Holmes on the loose?

    just sayin' I think the urban/rural differences in attitudes are reasonable... to an extent.

    While I do own that black mask, I prefer to use a two-piece set up, I have a stocking cap that goes on my head, and a mask that only covers my lower face, so if it's a cold day I'll do that so I can lower it when entering a building or if stopped by police.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    Well remember RAS is heavily fact dependent.

    camo with a rifle and a mask on a cold day in hunting season in a rural or forested area or in a business near such an area wouldn't constitute RAS, it's obvious you're hunting. now depending upon your state you might be subject to warrantless search, in Washington Fish and Wildlife officers and DNR enforcement officers can search you without your consent to check your hunting license and see if any poached animals are on you. At least that's what I was told in hunters ed, I have no idea about the case law backing this up, I'll look it up if I ever go hunting. but a local sheriff's deputy can reasonably infer you're hunting with those circumstances.


    if you're in the middle of a suburban subdivision miles from the forest, or in a downtown city area.... I'm almost certain officers can stop you and it would be ruled reasonable...

    Rural area
    rifle=he's hunting or hiking
    mask=it's cold outside, he's going to be out for a few hours looking for an elk
    pistol=who cares? everyone owns guns here

    urban area
    Rifle="hmmm what's this guy up to." Nothing illegal about this, but, it is a bolt action (sniper rifle) vs. one of those evil black assault rifles. Further investigation is required.
    mask=he doesn't want witnesses to be able to ID him or he's wanted and hiding his identity. It is cold outside and many folks are wearing masks of one type or the other, they too are trying to hide their identity, further investigation is required, they too may be armed, better call in a lot of back up.....Aurora?
    pistol=in combination with mask and rifle... do we have another James Holmes on the loose? Hmmm, wearing RealTree camo (my personal favorite by the way), in the city of all places, walking to who knows where, better follow to see where, YIKES!!! A monster 3500HD GMC dually, with a RealTree camo paint job, and huge 86 point deer antlers on the hood. OK this dude is most likely going hunting.

    But.....BUT, I better investigate anyway. I mean, c'mon, he does have a pistol, likely loaded with one of those "hicap" mags loaded with "cop killer" bullets, a big sniper rifle, his face is covered to hide his identity, and is wearing camo. Yepper, I better nab this guy real quick just in case he decides to make a "pit stop" at the nearest movie theater then flee into the mountains.


    just sayin' I think the urban/rural differences in attitudes are reasonable... to an extent.

    While I do own that black mask, I prefer to use a two-piece set up, I have a stocking cap that goes on my head, and a mask that only covers my lower face, so if it's a cold day I'll do that so I can lower it when entering a building or if stopped by police.
    See above in blue.

    Good points. Do any hunters live in the urban areas of WA? Would they be inclined to be dressed as I was and transit to/from a vehicle in cold weather? Maybe even stop off for a cup of Joe on the way to deer camp?

    Maybe the vehicle is a motorcycle. Unless riding a scooter and being visibly armed is unlawful in WA.

    I agree, your average beat cop on the streets of a big city, even the burbs, would likely be very interested in a chap like me, on my way to deer camp, on my motorcycle. In spite of what he sees with his own eyes.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  20. #20
    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    See above in blue.

    Good points. Do any hunters live in the urban areas of WA? Would they be inclined to be dressed as I was and transit to/from a vehicle in cold weather? Maybe even stop off for a cup of Joe on the way to deer camp?
    Maybe. depends on what we consider urban, I'm certain many outdoor enthusiasts live in urban areas in WA, one of the main points high profile employers in Seattle use to attract residents is our beautiful scenery and relative proximity to outdoor recreation. how many of said people hunt is a different story. it just depends really. where I live I'd have no problem transiting to outdoor areas wearing my coat and stuff, probably not many with carrying a firearm either. Kitsap county lies in between all the outdoor areas in rural pierce and thurston counties and the olympic national park and forests. so someone with full outdoor kit and regalia probably wouldn't look suspicious much, although the balaclava might be too much unless you're actually at your deer camp or hike, not a crime, but I think it would get you talked to.

    I certainly wouldn't stop to get coffee in downtown seattle or everett in my cammo with expensive weapons on my person because of what the cops might do

    Not in downtown Tacoma because I'm certain some gang member will entertain the idea of taking my rifle to pay for some crack... although certainly OCing the pistol would be done. Pistol OC is accepted here by now, there are some issues with rifle OC and RCW 9.41.270 and a case called "State v. Spencer" in which a man was convicted for carrying a military style rifle with an attached magazine in a suburb of Seattle at night.

    Maybe the vehicle is a motorcycle. Unless riding a scooter and being visibly armed is unlawful in WA.
    It's not, but carrying a loaded firearm "in a vehicle" is a violation of the law. except you can carry loaded HANDGUNS if you have a CPL. but as long as said weapon is unloaded no problem, there's been serious discussion in the WA forum about motorcycles and vehicle carry. basically there's been no test case to determine if loaded OC on a motorcycle is "in a vehicle" or not.


    I agree, your average beat cop on the streets of a big city, even the burbs, would likely be very interested in a chap like me, on my way to deer camp, on my motorcycle. In spite of what he sees with his own eyes.
    I wouldn't pull into a big city for coffee, not even for gas, gas is cheaper out in the outlying service stations anyway. my rifle would probably be kept in the car in a hardsided case concealed from view. I tend to park my car where I can see it from the gas station, restaurant, etc and when stopping at a diner on road trips I always ask if I can be seated in view of my vehicle from the window. then again I have no long arms worth stealing. just a beat up #1 SMLE, a marlin .22 is all. so I don't think i'd need to take it inside for safety. pistol maybe, if legal to do so.
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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