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High School Public Policy Paper **NEED OPINIONS**

bustown88

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Thanks for your insight Malcolm! It means a lot to get the nod of approval from you guys, and I especially appreciate the input because I really don't want to misrepresent you guys or accidentally cause more harm than good to my state laws... I do realize that it is a daunting task, but I hope to make this proposal the best I can so it will at least warrant a reply from someone I send it to, if not legitimate consideration or action.

In answer to your second question, I will be uploading both my rough and final drafts on here so you guys can get a word in on it/help re-arrange things so there would be a better chance of this seeing the floor of the Ohio house.

I'm actually almost strangely passionate about this legislation. I'm just really pleased that this is getting such an informative and helpful response on here. Definitely made this paper so much better than it would have been if I had just hacked it on my own. And for that, I thank everyone who has contributed, and you will all receive a special thanks in my citations! :)

Seriously thank you guys, and keep the suggestions rolling in!

BT88
 

MKEgal

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bustown88 said:
And as far as the Psych eval stuff, I realized that older gun owners might not necessarily be a fan of making a handgun harder to obtain, I just figured that it might be nice to include something so everyone who disagrees with this proposition looses their **** about Aurora or something.
I'm not communicating well here... might have something do with being up way too late.
The main reasons I would object to a psych eval as a condition of being able to own or carry a firearm:
1) the Federal Constitution says this right "shall not be infringed". And the OH Constitution says (in part):
Article 1 Section 4 said:
The people have the right to bear arms for their defense and security...
And here's an interesting bit:
Article 9 Section 1: Who shall perform military duty said:
All citizens, residents of this state, being seventeen years of age, and under the age of sixty-seven years, shall be subject to enrollment in the militia and the performance of military duty, in such manner, not incompatible with the Constitution and laws of the United States, as may be prescribed by law.
Once again, if your gov't can compel you to military duty, obviously you're old enough to be responsible. (At least, that's the theory. Some work out better than others. But the possibility that someone might behave badly is not a reason to infringe the rights of everyone.)

2) mission creep, camel's nose, foot in the door, etc. I can pretty much guarantee that if it's instituted, claiming to only apply to 18-20yo, it will eventually spread to other adults (or at the very least, the anti-gun crowd will try it).

3) who sets the standards? how are they arrived at? who does the evaluating? This could become a political test - if I'm in charge of issuing licenses & I think that people who vote for Candidate X are irresponsible, if I know someone supports candidate X I will deny the license.

4) expense. This will make it even harder for the poorer people, the ones most likely to live in not-so-great areas, the ones most likely to need to defend themselves.

5) won't stop criminals - laws only affect the law-abiding. Even the current laws (prohibiting felons, people with misdemeanor domestic violence convictions, and people who have been adjudicated mentally incompetent from purchasing or possessing firearms or ammunition) don't stop people in those categories from doing whatever they want.

bustown88 said:
I hope to make this proposal the best I can so it will at least warrant a reply from someone I send it to, if not legitimate consideration or action.
Something people in OH can help with, which will increase your chance of success, is to send it to a legislator who is known to support the 2nd Amendment. I know that my elected officials, the ones directly responsible for the area where I live, are all very anti-gun. I still write them to let them know how I feel about things, but I also send suggestions to other legislators.

I'm just really pleased that this is getting such an informative and helpful response on here.
Definitely made this paper so much better than it would have been if I had just hacked it on my own.
You're learning about research... find people who know what you don't and ask questions.
If you're ever a manager, remember that. Hire people who know more than you do, & stay out of their way.
 
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glockowner

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Ohio
Read these:

Read everything you can...These are especially good:

Halbrook, Stephen P. The Founders' Second Amendment: Origins of the Right to Bear Arms. Chicago: Ivan R. Dee, 2008. Print.
and
Lott, John R. The Bias against Guns: Why Almost Everything You've Heard about Gun Control Is Wrong. Washington, DC: Regnery Pub., 2003. Print.
and
Lott, John R. More Guns, Less Crime: Understanding Crime and Gun-control Laws. Chicago: University of Chicago, 1998. Print.
and
Marvell, Thomas B. The Impact of Banning Juvenile Gun Possession Journal of Law and Economics, Vol. 44, No. S2. Print

You may find that understanding the broader historical context of the right to bear arms may be important to your argument and quite possibly differentiate your paper vis a vis anyone else in your class.

Good Luck.
 

davidmcbeth

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The OP picked a subject that requires a lot of research and reading, that's for sure....more like a dissertation project than a HS paper.

After all these posts, has the OP decided on changing his paper's subject? I would not blame him.
 

bustown88

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Hahaha I'm still plugging away, Presenting on the 14th... We'll see if I can get it done!
And thanks Glockowner for more evidence!
And to MKEgal for the clarification, I'll respond if I can think of anything later, brain is a little fried right now... :shocker:
 

bustown88

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Also MKEgal, as I was just re-reading your post and realized that you said receiving as a gift would be alright, but I remember reading in the ORC that furnishing a handgun to a minor, or selling to someone with the known intent of selling or furnishing said handgun to a minor is a felony of the fifth or fourth degree I believe... So that's off the table. But so far, your link to the Harvard journal has been the most helpful source that I've had so far.. and JmE, I found some statistics, did some calculations and found out that a motor vehicle is about 16% deadlier than a firearm in the United States!

As to everyone else, thanks so much for all of the input, I'm on my fourth page now, albeit in extremely rough draft form... Have to figure out the flow and some of the language for it, but I suppose I'll upload what I have so far...

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bPD6Q4XLM8Kx-QzzdUwlowMkttTuj9SSMM4FEVDRmFQ/edit

BT88
 

MKEgal

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bustown88 said:
I was just re-reading your post and realized that you said receiving as a gift would be alright, but I remember reading in the ORC that furnishing a handgun to a minor, or selling to someone with the known intent of selling or furnishing said handgun to a minor is a felony of the fifth or fourth degree
5th degree, unless certain conditions are met:
923.21 Improperly furnishing firearms to minor.

(A) No person shall do any of the following:

(1) Sell any firearm to a person who is under eighteen years of age;

(2) Subject to division (B) of this section*, sell any handgun to a person who is under twenty-one years of age;

(3) Furnish any firearm to a person who is under eighteen years of age or, subject to division (B) of this section, furnish any handgun to a person who is under twenty-one years of age, except for lawful hunting, sporting, or educational purposes, including, but not limited to, instruction in firearms or handgun safety, care, handling, or marksmanship under the supervision or control of a responsible adult;

*(Division B gives the usual "out" of police & military.)

So giving an adult (age 18-20) a handgun would be legal as long as it's for those limited purposes. Nothing prevents a young adult from owning a handgun, only from purchasing one.

And it doesn't expressly say so, but I'm assuming they intend the "responsible adult" to be over 21?

It probably wouldn't go very far as a defense, but could one stretch "educational purposes" to include educating members of the public (who see someone OC) about their Constitutional rights?
 

bustown88

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You're right, I just assumed that I wouldn't be mugged by a squirrel and disregarded that subsection as it pertains to my topic...
I suppose that you're idea about educational purposes might work, but it for sure wouldn't fly with too many LEOs, especially in the Columbus metro area... I would rather be safe rather than sorry in that situation and be 100% confident that I wouldn't be in cuffs if I walked out in public OCing.
I was impressed with the lack of loopholes in the ORC when it comes to this stuff... Pretty rigid stuff...
I did call my local state rep. to see if he knows why it's set at 21 right now, because I can't for the life of me find anything on why it was set to that age in the first place... Maybe I'm just not looking in the right place or for the right thing? My friend said something about it being 21 because of the large metropolitan makeup of Ohio, and to protect our children or something like that, but that seems a little shaky at best.

BT88
 

MKEgal

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bustown88 said:
I'm on my fourth page now, albeit in extremely rough draft form... Have to figure out the flow and some of the language for it, but I suppose I'll upload what I have so far...
Start with an outline, then fill it in. Get your thoughts in order first, know where you want to go. It's easier to see everything when you're dealing with the major points alone, instead of wading through details.

I handed in a term paper last Fri., and did that exact thing. Our school gives us the grading tool they'll be using to evaluate our papers, so it's very easy to take that & turn it into an outline. Then as I'm reading, I add the books/journals to my reference list & take notes under each applicable section of the paper.

Thoughts as I read through it:
Overall coherent & well written.
Consistently indent first line
Offset text quotes as a block of text (indent further, greater right margin, single line spacing)
un-capitalize: provision, say, vote
"fourth degree felony if under the age of 18" (and I think they're both 5th degree felonies)
When you say that both OH & the US define an adult as..., you only quote the ORC. You need the citation to the US Code as well, or remove reference to US law. Here's a good place to search the US Code. That link happens to be to a section about gun laws, including the "gun-free" school zone law (18USC922(q)).

which means that they must pay taxes, males must sign up for selective service, can gamble, purchase tobacco, operate motor vehicles, Vote and assume all of the general responsibilities of adulthood.
As written, it sounds like both must pay taxes & but the rest applies only to males.
Try this:
which means that they must pay taxes, can gamble, purchase tobacco, operate motor vehicles, vote and assume all of the general responsibilities of adulthood. Males must also register for selective service.

The evidence that they submitted [strike]in[/strike]to the journal

Depending on how your teacher wants citations done, you should put the whole info for the Harvard Journal article in your references list, then cite in the text of your paper by the author's names and year of publication:
Kates and Mauser (2007)
Kates, D. and Mauser, G., 2007. Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide? Harvard Journal of Law and Public Policy, Vol. 30, No. 2, p. 649-694.

it failed to identify any gun control that had reduced violent crime, suicide, or gun accidents.
Being that statement proves really not much more than the fact that nothing could be deduced about the effectiveness of firearms laws
That statement says there is no evidence to date supporting the idea that gun control laws reduce the rates of violent crime, suicide, or gun accidents. With the decades of experience across the country, surely if there were some evidence in support of the anti-gun position it would have shown up by now.

live in a state that has [strike]less[/strike] fewer restrictions on guns
 

MKEgal

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bustown88 said:
You're right, I just assumed that I wouldn't be mugged by a squirrel and disregarded that subsection as it pertains to my topic...
:rolleyes: Don't get snide. Giving you the same look I gave Citizen a while back, that over-the-glasses thing that parents do to quell misbehaving children. (And why is that so effective??)

Don't count squirrels out. Here's a story about a demonic attack squirrel that always has me gasping for breath from laughing so hard. (It does mention a firearm.)

My friend said something about it being 21 because of the large metropolitan makeup of Ohio, and to protect our children or something like that, but that seems a little shaky at best.
:facepalm: The old "it's for the children" canard, plus the "we're so different" ploy.
I'd ask him to show the stats or news stories from states which allow any adult to carry, and especially those which allow people to carry openly or concealed with no license, to prove his idea that more children will be harmed or that Ohio is different from other states.

licenses 18yo: Alabama, Indiana, Iowa (only if needed for employment, otherwise 21), Maine, Maryland, Montana, New Hampshire, North Dakota, South Dakota, West Virginia (only if needed for employment, otherwise 21)

no license needed: Alaska (must be 21), Arizona (must be 21 to carry concealed, 18 for OC), Vermont, Wyoming
 

ncwabbit

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as explained in another ohio thread (couple of questions or some such title)...the ORC cite everyone keeps using is in regards to a MINOR. ORC delinates MINOR as someone <18. might wish to review the other comments made on that thread...


wabbit

ps: didn't Jimmy have a problem w/squirrels...no wait another type of rodent...a distant cousin of mine ralphy the feared swimming attack W A B B I T!!
 

eye95

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Hmmm...wabbit made me do some rereading. Is it only SALES to folks 18-21 that is unlawful? Where does it say that a gift is?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.
 
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ncwabbit

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Hmmm...wabbit made me do some rereading. Is it only SALES to folks 18-21 that is unlawful? Where does it say that a gift is? snip... [UNQUOTE]

Federal law precludes handgun sales to those < 21.

18 USC 922(x) talks about minors <18 who can participate in handgun training w/note from their caregiver(s) who are not prohibited from having firearms.

wabbit
 
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eye95

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I probably should have said "weweading."

I would like to clarify my query. The ORC does not prohibit gifting a handgun to someone 18-21??


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

<o>
 

Lord Sega

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Just a couple of thoughts...

Be sure to push the State Constitution's version of 2A as much or more than the US Constitution, state legislator's views are focused on the state.
I know people at 16 who are responsible and level headed, and I know people at 30 who I personally would not trust with a butter knife, so who gets to say who can and can't?
Since 18 has been determined to be the age of adulthood, then that is the age where all rights should be afforded without restriction, until or unless the person proves otherwise (ie breaks the laws).

If teen drivers are so dangerous, why can they start at 15/16 years old? Why is drinking pushed off to 21 years old? Why can you own a firearm at 18, but can't buy or conceal until 21?

On a side note, I feel that the last half of senior year in high school needs to be nothing but classes of how to survive as an adult, things like:
- How to write a resume and perform at a job interview.
- How to make and stick to a budget.
- How to read (and what to watch out for) contracts before signing.
- How to properly use credit / credit cards.
- Laws, rules, and regulations to be aware of.
- What papers, documents, files you need to keep and for how long.
- Keeping a notebook (for life) listing your work history (dates, pay, supervisor's name, etc), medical history basics (shot record, major injuries/surgeries w/dates), etc...
- How to deal with government bureaucracy, where to go for information / answers. Also how to avoid same.
- etc...

Good luck on your public policy paper.
 

bustown88

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licenses 18yo: Alabama, Indiana, Iowa (only if needed for employment, otherwise 21), Maine, Maryland, Montana, New Hampshire, North Dakota, South Dakota, West Virginia (only if needed for employment, otherwise 21)

no license needed: Alaska (must be 21), Arizona (must be 21 to carry concealed, 18 for OC), Vermont, Wyoming

As it is my understanding, You could CC in Ohio at 18, it's just that unless you're on active duty, or moved in from a state where you had legally bought a handgun and Ohio reciprocates, you really can't get a handgun legally under 21...

And as far as an outline, I think I'm allergic... For some reason everything flows better when I just get it on paper first, and then worry about tweaking and re-arranging.

Thanks to everyone again for input!
 

bustown88

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I probably should have said "weweading."

I would like to clarify my query. The ORC does not prohibit gifting a handgun to someone 18-21??


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

<o>

"(3) Furnish any firearm to a person who is under eighteen years of age or, subject to division (B) of this section, furnish any handgun to a person who is under twenty-one years of age, except for lawful hunting, sporting, or educational purposes, including, but not limited to, instruction in firearms or handgun safety, care, handling, or marksmanship under the supervision or control of a responsible adult;"

This is under ORC 2923.21

Subsection B states that you can't give a handgun to anyone under 21 except for the activities listed, where I'm assuming that a "responsible adult" is someone over 21, although legally that's 18 as according to ORC 3109.01

"All persons of the age of eighteen years or more, who are under no legal disability, are capable of contracting and are of full age for all purposes."

This is the only thing that I find not fairly clear-cut in the ORC regarding my issue...
 

bustown88

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Just a couple of thoughts...

Be sure to push the State Constitution's version of 2A as much or more than the US Constitution, state legislator's views are focused on the state.
I know people at 16 who are responsible and level headed, and I know people at 30 who I personally would not trust with a butter knife, so who gets to say who can and can't?
Since 18 has been determined to be the age of adulthood, then that is the age where all rights should be afforded without restriction, until or unless the person proves otherwise (ie breaks the laws).

If teen drivers are so dangerous, why can they start at 15/16 years old? Why is drinking pushed off to 21 years old? Why can you own a firearm at 18, but can't buy or conceal until 21?

On a side note, I feel that the last half of senior year in high school needs to be nothing but classes of how to survive as an adult, things like:
- How to write a resume and perform at a job interview.
- How to make and stick to a budget.
- How to read (and what to watch out for) contracts before signing.
- How to properly use credit / credit cards.
- Laws, rules, and regulations to be aware of.
- What papers, documents, files you need to keep and for how long.
- Keeping a notebook (for life) listing your work history (dates, pay, supervisor's name, etc), medical history basics (shot record, major injuries/surgeries w/dates), etc...
- How to deal with government bureaucracy, where to go for information / answers. Also how to avoid same.
- etc...

Good luck on your public policy paper.

I'm definitely focusing on changing OH legislation, although some of the evidence I'm using is from the federal law..
And I'm in an internship class where we had to do meetings and write cover letters and resumes and I've self taught most of the stuff on your list, although there are a few good ideas that I'll have to start doing.

Thanks for the input!

BT88
 

davidmcbeth

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On a side note, I feel that the last half of senior year in high school needs to be nothing but classes of how to survive as an adult, things like:
.

Mine was to investigate how much beer I could drink in an afternoon lol. I was very devoted to that research project :)
 

bustown88

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"fourth degree felony if under the age of 18" (and I think they're both 5th degree felonies)
When you say that both OH & the US define an adult as..., you only quote the ORC. You need the citation to the US Code as well, or remove reference to US law. Here's a good place to search the US Code. That link happens to be to a section about gun laws, including the "gun-free" school zone law (18USC922(q)).

I read through any of the US Code that I thought would have the federal definition of age of majority, but no dice. Apparently the power to assign an age of majority is up to the states... Alabama and Mississippi are both set at 19, and Nebraska is 19 or marriage. All of the other states consider it to be 18 (the section of ORC that I quoted in my paper) and US Code only defines a Juvenile as under the age of 18... (it might be 21 in some instances, the language is a little tricky)

Not sure how to read the first paragraph of the prelim...

BT88
 
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