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Thread: A doctor talks about what type of bullet causes the most damage.

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    A doctor talks about what type of bullet causes the most damage.

    A DR. reviews the effects of real gun shot victims and tells you what they see in the ER, what is Hollywood bull and what is fact. Note: There are graphic photos in his presentation.
    9mm vs .45 vs Rifle A Dr's View of Gunshot Wounds
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tku8Y...feAWAAAAAAACAA
    Last edited by zack991; 11-28-2012 at 04:56 PM.
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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    1. Here we go again, .45 v 9mm, with the geeks wanting to talk about the 10mm and 10mm kurtz (.40).

    2. Of course rifle bullets are going to cause more damage than handgun bullets.

    3. Is there anybody who does not understand how unwieldy it is to carry a rifle around all day, and how limited they are in very close quarters?

    4. Didn't watch the video - did he discuss the fact that rthe .22LR is, by percentage of times used, the most lethal round?

    Like the rest of life, it's all a compromise.

    I've got better things to do that debate anything except that carrying is better than not carrying.

    stay safe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    1. Here we go again, .45 v 9mm, with the geeks wanting to talk about the 10mm and 10mm kurtz (.40).

    2. Of course rifle bullets are going to cause more damage than handgun bullets.

    3. Is there anybody who does not understand how unwieldy it is to carry a rifle around all day, and how limited they are in very close quarters?

    4. Didn't watch the video - did he discuss the fact that rthe .22LR is, by percentage of times used, the most lethal round?

    Like the rest of life, it's all a compromise.

    I've got better things to do that debate anything except that carrying is better than not carrying.

    stay safe.
    3. You may be surprised.

    4. He talked about the .223 / 5.56 round .

    My goal was not to start another war of cailbers, but share the opine of a doctor.
    Last edited by zack991; 11-28-2012 at 05:46 PM.
    -I come in peace, I didn't bring artillery. But I am pleading with you with tears in my eyes: If you screw with me, I'll kill you all.
    -Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.
    Marine General James Mattis,

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    Quote Originally Posted by zack991 View Post
    My goal was not to start another war of cailbers, but share the opine of a doctor.
    Although my gun round .50 cal rifle was not covered (maybe no tissue greater than a sliver to show) it was nice to see....and folks will always start discussing effectiveness of calibers ...

    Always nice to see information ..

    Keep the Faith

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    Regular Member HeroHog's Avatar
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    Cool

    #3: You haven't played with my SUB2000 Kel-Tec I see! 16" folded!

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    I don't have NEAR enough ammo on hand. `nuff said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HeroHog View Post
    #3: You haven't played with my SUB2000 Kel-Tec I see! 16" folded!
    Kel-Tec makes some fun guns....

    Keep the Faith!

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeroHog View Post
    #3: You haven't played with my SUB2000 Kel-Tec I see! 16" folded!
    My friend, I want to see a video of you "drawing" that thing, unfolding it, and getting off two shots on targets under 7 yards at your 3 o'clock.

    Remember, I know you and your circumstances. You are telling me you can repel boarders at the starboard rail as easily/effectively/efficiently with that rifle as you could with a handgun? I don't think so! (BTW, is your EDC still that KelTec in what was it, .32?)

    I never said "real" rifle calibers were not more effective than pistol calibers, or that pistol calibers (.22, for instance) jacked up to come out of a rifle-sized cartridge (your .223) were not more effective than pistol calibers. What I said is that life is one big compromise and that for ease of carry and efficiency of use in close quarters a handgun beats a rifle.

    However, it sorta goes along the lines of "If I knew there was gonna be trouble I woulda brought a rifle. Heck, I woulda brought all my friends with all their rifles. Or if there was some way to, I woulda been somewhere else in the first place." If some famous guy didn't say that, he should have.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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    Regular Member Redbaron007's Avatar
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    Not a bad video.

    Really doesn't try to compare the 9 to 45. He generally speaks about gunshot wounds and their treatment. He does compare the effects of a rifle to a handgun injury. Gave some interesting stats on gunshot victims; however, those stats were from 2008.

    Basically, he said, if you shoot someone with a handgun, you have to hit something to kill them; something vital. And, a handgun doesn't have the same destruction as the rifle.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeroHog View Post
    #3: You haven't played with my SUB2000 Kel-Tec I see! 16" folded!

    Nice - any suggestions on how to get those 31rounders loaded past 1/2 way?

    ...yep - off topic. Sorry.

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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    It would seem that what he and P.O. Ackley have said about bullet wounds match up pretty well.

    They both agreed that the velocity at the time of impact has allot to do with the survivability of being shot.
    Ackley noted that a .177 caliber bullet going 4000FPS does a tremendous amount of damage to living flesh and blood creatures.
    He also pointed out that a .270 hunting round can do more damage to armor than a 30-06AP round against the same armor.

    There seems to be a tipping point where caliber and velocity cross though. A slow moving .45 will make a bigger hole than a faster moving 9mm.
    I am not saying one is better than the other.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Quote Originally Posted by jaymack View Post
    Nice - any suggestions on how to get those 31rounders loaded past 1/2 way?

    ...yep - off topic. Sorry.
    I have never had any problems with mine. I normally only load 30 rounds in my Glock factory magazines instead of 33 (I believe those are the 33 rounders; I could be wrong). What I have had problems with were the Glock .40, 22 round magazines.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

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    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    I have never had any problems with mine. I normally only load 30 rounds in my Glock factory magazines instead of 33 (I believe those are the 33 rounders; I could be wrong). What I have had problems with were the Glock .40, 22 round magazines.
    When I had mine I had some of the korean 31 rd Glock mags 40 cal. and they fed just fine with 30 in them. Plus they only cost me $11 ea at the time. Very sturdy as well. I miss my sub2k. Wish I hadn't sold it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devin Hutchison View Post
    Let's talk about what we all know; a well placed shot is a deadly shot. It doesn't matter how big ya gun is if you can't aim the gun.
    As one can be witness to in the video -- even a well placed shot can do nothing. I was amazed that a man was hit with a .40S&W that would have severely damaged the heart and it didn't even reach the heart. The round only penetrated about an inch.

    People can argue the caliber war all they want, but if a round doesn't have sufficient velocity it will NOT hit vitals. Just because a bullet is heavy does NOT mean it will penetrate. If you are using FMJ then they will penetrate as long as they do not come into contact with heavy bone. If you are using JHP then they will expand and slow down, and this is why velocity is important. It is also extremely important that you carry a round that will not OVER expand, and cause severe drag. You can have a fast load, but if it expands to twice its size or better you will not get sufficient penetration.

    There is a guy on Youtube that conducts excellent ballistic tests: his Youtube name is tnoutdoors9 and here is his channel http://www.youtube.com/user/tnoutdoors9 . Look at SOME of his videos with heavy .45 acp and light 9mm; they just are not sufficient to penetrate properly. Then look at his .357 Sig. videos.

    I just recently changed my carry load due (.357 Sig.) to one of his ballistic tests. I used to carry 125 gr. GoldDot, but now I carry 125 gr. Underwood. This Underwood load still uses the excellent GoldDot bullet, but the velocity from my Glock 32 is over 1,500 fps and nearly 650 fpe! This load penetrates and expands very well. You can watch the video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ughIFOrIP_w .

    He does another video with this CLEAR ballistic gel which is awesome! You can see it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iujNWfhUx4A .

    I would reccommend everyone check this guy out; I would guaruntee he has probably done a test on the ammo you carry. Not only does he do the tests, but he does them right!
    Last edited by KYGlockster; 12-02-2012 at 02:31 PM.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

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    Regular Member Redbaron007's Avatar
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    I agree with you KYGlockster.....I subscribe to tnoutdoors9 YouTube channel. He seems to do a very good job of being consistant with the ballistic gel testing.

    One of the takeaways from the video was similar to what you stated......the bullet has to have some velocity to enter, but also has to hit a vital part. Unlike a rifle, the impact anywhere creates a tremendous amount of damage.

    I'm a BIG fan of the 357sig.
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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Bullets that enter into human flesh cause way more damage than ones that don't.

    I say carry what is comfortable for you to use.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Bullets that enter into human flesh cause way more damage than ones that don't. I say carry what is comfortable for you to use.
    This is truth. .17 cal or .68 cal does not matter if you do not make contact with the threat. Range time is as important as your caliber. I exercise my EDC at least twice a month, even if I just dump a mag or two. You should not use a tool unless you can be effective with it. Little bullet, big bullet, get it to center of mass.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Bullets that enter into human flesh cause way more damage than ones that don't.

    I say carry what is comfortable for you to use.
    That is true; however, I want to carry a round that will go beyond the flesh and into vital organs while at the same time expanding. I completely agree that any gun is better than no gun, but if you are capable of carrying a proven round then that is what I would do.

    There are some excellent loads in 9mm. The things to watch are bullet design, weight and velocity.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

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    My caliber of Choice = !!!

    357 Magnum !!! All Day long !!!

    But, let's hear an opinion from someone who knows a little more about the subject than most of us combined ,,, IMHO.

    "People say, *THIS* is everything. Velocity, Caliber, Placement, Permanent Cavity, Temporary Cavity is everything. Look, nothing is everything, but everything is something." Massad Ayoob

    Peace & RKBA 4ever !

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    Quote Originally Posted by scott58dh View Post
    357 Magnum !!! All Day long !!!

    But, let's hear an opinion from someone who knows a little more about the subject than most of us combined ,,, IMHO.

    "People say, *THIS* is everything. Velocity, Caliber, Placement, Permanent Cavity, Temporary Cavity is everything. Look, nothing is everything, but everything is something." Massad Ayoob

    Peace & RKBA 4ever !
    .357SIG

    Why only have 6rnds when I can have 13 or more.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Regular Member Redbaron007's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    .357SIG

    Why only have 6rnds when I can have 13 or more.
    ^^^^
    AGREE!!
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    Regular Member Superlite27's Avatar
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    I always thought Special Agent Urey W. Patrick's study "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness" was the definitive authority on what type of bullet causes the most damage.

    Does anyone know of any recent studies done in a similar manner?

    Although Patrick's research was done in 1987, I doubt if anything new has debunked his conclusion that the size of the permanent wound channel created by the bullet is the single most important variable caused by the bullet (as opposed to shot placement, caused by the location of the wound [shooter's skill/luck/whatever], which is the true determining factor of wound damage.)

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    Regular Member Redbaron007's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlite27 View Post
    I always thought Special Agent Urey W. Patrick's study "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness" was the definitive authority on what type of bullet causes the most damage.

    Does anyone know of any recent studies done in a similar manner?

    Although Patrick's research was done in 1987, I doubt if anything new has debunked his conclusion that the size of the permanent wound channel created by the bullet is the single most important variable caused by the bullet (as opposed to shot placement, caused by the location of the wound [shooter's skill/luck/whatever], which is the true determining factor of wound damage.)

    I didn't read his book. But I did watch the video. In theory I would agree with the book. But the video clearly shows that if a vital isn't hit, more than likely the the person will survive. The difference in a rifle and handgun wound was eye opening. You can inflict some serious damage to areas with a rifle, but not the same with a handgun.
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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    The damage that a doctor sees is usually irrelevant to STOPPING the attack.

    Against most human adversaries, simply pointing a gun at them does the trick.

    When stopping power matters against an adversary willing to advance through gunfire, immediate stopping power will matter more on energy delivery than number of holes. This is accomplished by making sure to use an appropriate energy-carrying projectile, and MAKING SURE IT STAYS IN THE TARGET. An exit hole is great for bleeding out. But making them bleed out is not the best strategy for immediately stopping the threat.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    .357SIG

    Why only have 6rnds when I can have 13 or more.
    Statistically speaking, the average encounter is 3 shots, 3 seconds & 3-9 feet.

    So, if I can't get the issue resolved by 6 rounds, then my goose is probably cooked anyhow !!!

    Whatever floats your boat chum.

    Peace & RKBA 4ever !!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlite27 View Post
    I always thought Special Agent Urey W. Patrick's study "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness" was the definitive authority on what type of bullet causes the most damage.

    Does anyone know of any recent studies done in a similar manner?

    Although Patrick's research was done in 1987, I doubt if anything new has debunked his conclusion that the size of the permanent wound channel created by the bullet is the single most important variable caused by the bullet (as opposed to shot placement, caused by the location of the wound [shooter's skill/luck/whatever], which is the true determining factor of wound damage.)
    Permanent cavity is what is most important and that is what I have stated as have others. If the permanent cavity does not reach vital organs or vessels, then you will NOT incapacitate an attacker as fast as one needs. A handgun will not kill anyone unless it reaches a VITAL organ or vital vessels that will be severed and cause severe hemorrhaging. If one of these do not happen then a person will be able to stay in a fight for quite a long time. You can have a permanent cavity 10" wide, but if it only penetrates 2-3" then nothing has been accomplished other than causing a lot of pain. Many people can fight through pain, and can cause a lot of damage to you while in pain.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

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