A doctor talks about what type of bullet causes the most damage.

I always thought Special Agent Urey W. Patrick's study "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness" was the definitive authority on what type of bullet causes the most damage.

Does anyone know of any recent studies done in a similar manner?

Although Patrick's research was done in 1987, I doubt if anything new has debunked his conclusion that the size of the permanent wound channel created by the bullet is the single most important variable caused by the bullet (as opposed to shot placement, caused by the location of the wound [shooter's skill/luck/whatever], which is the true determining factor of wound damage.)

Superlite27 said:

I always thought Special Agent Urey W. Patrick's study "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness" was the definitive authority on what type of bullet causes the most damage.

Does anyone know of any recent studies done in a similar manner?

Although Patrick's research was done in 1987, I doubt if anything new has debunked his conclusion that the size of the permanent wound channel created by the bullet is the single most important variable caused by the bullet (as opposed to shot placement, caused by the location of the wound [shooter's skill/luck/whatever], which is the true determining factor of wound damage.)

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I didn't read his book. But I did watch the video. In theory I would agree with the book. But the video clearly shows that if a vital isn't hit, more than likely the the person will survive. The difference in a rifle and handgun wound was eye opening. You can inflict some serious damage to areas with a rifle, but not the same with a handgun.

The damage that a doctor sees is usually irrelevant to STOPPING the attack.

Against most human adversaries, simply pointing a gun at them does the trick.

When stopping power matters against an adversary willing to advance through gunfire, immediate stopping power will matter more on energy delivery than number of holes. This is accomplished by making sure to use an appropriate energy-carrying projectile, and MAKING SURE IT STAYS IN THE TARGET. An exit hole is great for bleeding out. But making them bleed out is not the best strategy for immediately stopping the threat.

Freedom1Man said:

.357SIG

Why only have 6rnds when I can have 13 or more.

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Statistically speaking, the average encounter is 3 shots, 3 seconds & 3-9 feet.

So, if I can't get the issue resolved by 6 rounds, then my goose is probably cooked anyhow !!!

Whatever floats your boat chum.

Peace & RKBA 4ever !!!

Superlite27 said:

I always thought Special Agent Urey W. Patrick's study "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness" was the definitive authority on what type of bullet causes the most damage.

Does anyone know of any recent studies done in a similar manner?

Although Patrick's research was done in 1987, I doubt if anything new has debunked his conclusion that the size of the permanent wound channel created by the bullet is the single most important variable caused by the bullet (as opposed to shot placement, caused by the location of the wound [shooter's skill/luck/whatever], which is the true determining factor of wound damage.)

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Permanent cavity is what is most important and that is what I have stated as have others. If the permanent cavity does not reach vital organs or vessels, then you will NOT incapacitate an attacker as fast as one needs. A handgun will not kill anyone unless it reaches a VITAL organ or vital vessels that will be severed and cause severe hemorrhaging. If one of these do not happen then a person will be able to stay in a fight for quite a long time. You can have a permanent cavity 10" wide, but if it only penetrates 2-3" then nothing has been accomplished other than causing a lot of pain. Many people can fight through pain, and can cause a lot of damage to you while in pain.

The point

I carry 9mm,10mm and 45 acp and I do not feel undergunned with any of them, I shoot them all well and can absolutely pepper somebody in vital areas within self defense distance. The entire point here is fire until the threat is stopped, now whether that is 1 round or 10 depends on every single parameter you can think of. With all that being said, DEA has recently switched back to 10mm for its ability to penetrate windshields easily and stop drugged up attackers faster than other service rounds, does that mean it is the end all be all of handgun calibers?no but for what they require of there rounds, High weight and velocity to penetrate barriers but still minimize penetration with postive expansion due to velocity, it is perfect for the task. I pick which caliber to carry based on what I am doing for the day. 10mm for long trips where vehicles and barriers may be involved. 9mm for open carry and general day to day activities where there are lots of crowds. 45 acp for ccw simply because I like 1911's for ccw and if I have to have only 8 rounds then 45 gets the nod for effectiveness over the 9mm, in smashing bones and punching through heavy clothing.


Whatever you carry practice, practice, practice, and practice some more.

dashowdy said:

I carry 9mm,10mm and 45 acp and I do not feel undergunned with any of them, I shoot them all well and can absolutely pepper somebody in vital areas within self defense distance. The entire point here is fire until the threat is stopped, now whether that is 1 round or 10 depends on every single parameter you can think of. With all that being said, DEA has recently switched back to 10mm for its ability to penetrate windshields easily and stop drugged up attackers faster than other service rounds, does that mean it is the end all be all of handgun calibers?no but for what they require of there rounds, High weight and velocity to penetrate barriers but still minimize penetration with postive expansion due to velocity, it is perfect for the task. I pick which caliber to carry based on what I am doing for the day. 10mm for long trips where vehicles and barriers may be involved. 9mm for open carry and general day to day activities where there are lots of crowds. 45 acp for ccw simply because I like 1911's for ccw and if I have to have only 8 rounds then 45 gets the nod for effectiveness over the 9mm, in smashing bones and punching through heavy clothing.


Whatever you carry practice, practice, practice, and practice some more.

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Yes the rounds you carry are adequate, but only if carrying a proven load in the caliber of choice. The "point" is to stop the threat with the LEAST amount of lead down-range, meaning we need the most sufficient cartridge we can handle and handle well. It isn't good if one has to send numerous rounds down-range, because the more rounds we send the more likely we are to cause bodily injury or death to innocent individuals.

We can never be "certain" of what a particular round will do, but we can get a good idea by means of testing and attention to previous street performance.

If we carry a load that requires us to fire ten times to stop a threat then the prosecutor will have a wonderful time speaking of negligence to a jury if one was to end up facing charges or involved with a civil suit. Another problem with firing such large quantities of ammunition is that it allows the attacker to continue his attack and cause injury or death. If someone is continuously firing at an individual then it means that individual is still attacking, because we would not be firing at someone that was walking or running away or terminating the attack.

The point is to carry a load that is proven and that does well in different tests while exceeding the FBI minimum in penetration and expansion.

There are excellent loads in 9mm, 10mm, .357 Sig., and .45 ACP, but there are also horrible loads in each. It is our responsibility to make sure we carry a round that is effective and proven. The caliber we carry means nothing compared to the round we carry in that caliber.

And, you would be surprised at which caliber is better at smashing bones between the 9mm and .45. Some .45 ACP loads will hit bone and stop as will some 9mm loads; however, there are also certain .45 and 9mm loads that will hit bone and keep penetrating. It is ALL in the load and NOT the caliber.

Once we get down to the .380 and weaker calibers the load really doesn't matter much. There are some "decent" loads in the .380, but most of them are awful, as is anything smaller than it. Yes, the .22 LR kills more people than any other round, but it is NOT because it is a good defensive round; it kills because it is a very popular round for hunting and plinking and that is what people have setting around.

scott58dh said:

Statistically speaking, the average encounter is 3 shots, 3 seconds & 3-9 feet.

So, if I can't get the issue resolved by 6 rounds, then my goose is probably cooked anyhow !!!

Whatever floats your boat chum.

Peace & RKBA 4ever !!!

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I'd rather have a 10lb fire extinguisher in a kitchen vs a 5lb one any day. If you can't put out a fire with only 5lbs does that mean you should let the kitchen burn? Most fires in a kitchen can be put out with less than a 5lb canister but if I have the ability to install a sprinkler system, should I not do so?

Revolver is 5-6 round normally. So you can take care of 1 and 2/3 of a BG. A BG and 2/3 of his 'friend'.
13+1 rounds that is 4 2/3 BGs. Unless you're part of the NYPD then you might need to reload another 9 times for just one BG.

Freedom1Man said:

I'd rather have a 10lb fire extinguisher in a kitchen vs a 5lb one any day. If you can't put out a fire with only 5lbs does that mean you should let the kitchen burn? Most fires in a kitchen can be put out with less than a 5lb canister but if I have the ability to install a sprinkler system, should I not do so?

Revolver is 5-6 round normally. So you can take care of 1 and 2/3 of a BG. A BG and 2/3 of his 'friend'.
13+1 rounds that is 4 2/3 BGs. Unless you're part of the NYPD then you might need to reload another 9 times for just one BG.

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Well Free, ya' got me swinging in the air on this one. I'll think 'bout it for awhile.

I suppose you have made a valid point to be loaded for bear.

Common sense has a lot to factor into ones personna of being a responsible Firearm Carrier.

However, unless someone is suseptible to getting themselves into a bad situation (let's say a gang/mob scene) then we get what we set ourselves up to get.

We don't need to get trapped into a "Dead End Street."

Here's a link to a post on this forum from a year ago about a subject that MAY aid in making this discussion a little more muddled.

:arrow:;http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?98313-The-Myth-of-Situational-Awareness

Here's how I try to live it out in a daily basis ...... ***AWARE*** = >>>>>>>>>>

*A*= Alert - of your surroundings and how those around you are conducting themselves. If it don't feel right,,,,,, GET OUTTA THERE !!!
*W*= Watch - your back. When possible, place yourself strategically to keep an eye on things. "I'll get the front door, you take the back."
*A*= Act - normal when carrying, don't be cocky !!! or stupid enough to get into a fix you shouldn't be in ! "Ya' ain't gonna shoot yer'self outta' this one Frank."
*R*= Responding - irresponsibly to a nonthreatening verbal assault is asking for trouble. "Sticks & Stones" ,,, like Mommy said, "It's only words."
*E*= Emergency - preparedness, have a Plan A,B & **IF POSSIBLE** ... Plan C to keep yourself & others with you out of BAD Situations. "I'll take the little guy, YOU get the big one & if that don't work ........ RUN FOR IT !!!"

Well that's my take on it.

Peace !

scott58dh said:

Well Free, ya' got me swinging in the air on this one. I'll think 'bout it for awhile.

I suppose you have made a valid point to be loaded for bear.

Common sense has a lot to factor into ones personna of being a responsible Firearm Carrier.

However, unless someone is suseptible to getting themselves into a bad situation (let's say a gang/mob scene) then we get what we set ourselves up to get.

We don't need to get trapped into a "Dead End Street."

Here's a link to a post on this forum from a year ago about a subject that MAY aid in making this discussion a little more muddled.

:arrow:;http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?98313-The-Myth-of-Situational-Awareness

Here's how I try to live it out in a daily basis ...... ***AWARE*** = >>>>>>>>>>

*A*= Alert - of your surroundings and how those around you are conducting themselves. If it don't feel right,,,,,, GET OUTTA THERE !!!
*W*= Watch - your back. When possible, place yourself strategically to keep an eye on things. "I'll get the front door, you take the back."
*A*= Act - normal when carrying, don't be cocky !!! or stupid enough to get into a fix you shouldn't be in ! "Ya' ain't gonna shoot yer'self outta' this one Frank."
*R*= Responding - irresponsibly to a nonthreatening verbal assault is asking for trouble. "Sticks & Stones" ,,, like Mommy said, "It's only words."
*E*= Emergency - preparedness, have a Plan A,B & **IF POSSIBLE** ... Plan C to keep yourself & others with you out of BAD Situations. "I'll take the little guy, YOU get the big one & if that don't work ........ RUN FOR IT !!!"

Well that's my take on it.

Peace !

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I agree, avoid confrontations as best you can.

I let comments and stuff roll over me and don't let it get me wound up. The only time I have spoken was when I was dealing with a man on the bus who was hassling me for OC. Claiming he could beat my ass and how it would be illegal for me to use my gun to defend myself etc. My reply was, "You've never read the law, I can tell."

I would not expand on that at all and his buddies were trying to start a conflict with me also. Good thing they were all thrown off the bus and I continue my travel in peace.