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Thread: Horrible First Encounter Open Carrying.

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    Horrible First Encounter Open Carrying.

    Hello All,

    I posted this story on the Alabama Open Carry website and wanted to post it here, to spread the attention I think it needs, to remind us to remain vigilant. This is part of the initial post I put on the a forum months ago, and I feel I need to share this here at the national level.:

    A while back I had my first encounter with LEO’s while Open Carrying. I thought I would open carry while my girlfriend and I went around and did errands. We get to Wal-Mart in Auburn and as we get out of the car a large black truck honks its horn at us. At first we ignore it, then he continues. We stop and turn around, a man opens his door and tells me I need to conceal my weapon. I told the man politely that I didn’t need too, that Open carry is legal.

    He retorted that it wasn’t, then “asked” me to conceal my weapon before I went inside the store. I told him I didn’t have to and he informed me he was a Lee county Sheriff Deputy—He was not in uniform and he did not present a badge or I.D. He got out of his vehicle and got in my face. I told him Article 1 sec. 26 (of the State Constitution) allowed me to carry. He asked if I was a lawyer and I said I didn’t have to tell him. I just figured I would walk away, I didn’t want problems. He said he would call “the boys.” And returned to his truck.
    My girlfriend and I proceeded to go inside Wal-Mart. We shopped as normal, and then I saw uniformed Auburn Police officers wandering the store. They hadn’t spotted me, but I knew they were looking for me. So I wanted to let them know I didn’t mean any harm I politely approached an officer and said “There was a man outside who said I couldn’t open carry…”

    LEO(1): “So you’re the guy? Where is it?”
    I showed the officer my weapon by canting my hip.
    LEO (1): “Okay, I’m going to take it—“ He proceeds to take my weapon “You can Open Carry but I’m going to take it.”
    Me: “I do not consent to any illegal searches”
    LEO(1): “You are not being searched”
    Me: “You are seizing my weapon illegally officer.”
    I asked if I was being detained, he said no.

    With my weapon in his hand he orders me to the back of the store, I ask him if we can do this in public. He has just disarmed me and is ordering me to a secluded area. He then tells me he will move me by force if needed to the back of the store. I say I will comply only because you are forcing me.
    He calls his fellow LEO’s we go to the back near the bathroom area and there they officers question me. One went to fine the Wal-Mart staff. LEO 1 unloaded my weapon and set it on a counter nearby.

    Wal-Mart staff comes out eventually after more harassment from these police officers. The Manager asks if everything is under control. He said that so long as I was following state law then it was fine no matter what I did. The cops were adamant in their opinion that I had to concealed carry, but they also said open carry was legal. They said I was on Private property and that I couldn’t open carry. I said there was no signs posted, and no Wal-Mart employee told me to stop Open Carrying. I have the full dialogue on my phone audio recorder and I have some really horrible footage on my handy dandy “HD” watch camera (with audio). I always carry it just in case of this kind of BS.
    Eventually a Wal-Mart manager, not the head guy (he had left when he said there were no problems reported in the store) was badgered by the cops to get me to either conceal my weapon or put it in the trunk of my car. I said I would do what Wal-Mart wanted, because it’s their property and I respect their rights. They asked me to conceal it. I would have just left but my girl needed some stuff from the store, so we shopped as normal after they gave me back my weapon.

    *The Auburn Police Department only met with me after I attempted many times to get into contact with them. Once I was with them they pretty much chided me for Open Carrying. All I wanted was for them the tell Wal-Mart that I wasn't wrong from Open Carrying. At this meeting asked me if I was recording them--public servents, on public property, during the commission of the public duties. I may or may not have recorded them (In Alabama we are a "one party state"). Their lack of response and belittling remarks show that they don't care. They actually told me I would get hassled for Open Carrying. But anyway---here is the video. It is the audio from my phone (it was better quality), kind of soft but check it out, there are two parts.

    Part I: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1dBhO1NBtg&feature=plcp

    Part II: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gR7XnHDJxn0

    If this is not the right place for this, admins please move it. Thank you.

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    Re: Horrible First Encounter Open Carrying.

    Sue. USC 42 among other US statuses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SPOProds View Post
    Sue. USC 42 among other US statuses.
    I took it to a gun friendly lawyer and he said I couldn't really pursue, or at least that it wouldn't be worth it. Unless I had been arrested. :/

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    Horrible First Encounter Open Carrying.

    If you post this on BamaCarry.org, you will reach a lot more Alabama carriers with your experience.

    I suggest another lawyer. An arrest makes a better case, but is not necessary to establish that your rights were violated. See St. John v. McColley. The victim was never arrested and still scored $14,000 from the officers involved who "knew or should have known" that OC is legal. These guys even admitted knowing.


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    Last edited by eye95; 11-28-2012 at 10:24 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    If you post this on BamaCarry.org, you will reach a lot more Alabama carriers with your experience.

    I suggest another lawyer. An arrest makes a better case, but is not necessary to establish that your rights were violated. See St. John v. McColley. The victim was never arrested and still scored $14,000 from the officers involved who "knew or should have known" that OC is legal. These guys even admitted knowing.


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    Will do, thanks Eye95. I heard Alabama OC recently had a lot of changes.

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    Horrible First Encounter Open Carrying.

    Most of the folks from that site now post on BamaCarry.org, including almost every one of the original members.


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    I would definitely consult a different lawyer. You were illegally detained the moment they seized (illegally) your weapon.

    Never, I say again, never go to a secluded area with police! You stay in the most public place you can!

    Good job with the recording, though.

    Good Luck.
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    Horrible First Encounter Open Carrying.

    True. Voluntarily going with them to the secluded area may give them a reason to try to claim that this was a consensual encounter. Inform them that you are going nowhere unless you are in custody. Tell them that you will not resist them if they take you by the arm and pull you where they REQUIRE you to go. Put them on the hook.


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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    True. Voluntarily going with them to the secluded area may give them a reason to try to claim that this was a consensual encounter. Inform them that you are going nowhere unless you are in custody. Tell them that you will not resist them if they take you by the arm and pull you where they REQUIRE you to go. Put them on the hook.


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    Yeah thats why I stated at least "I am going to the back of the store because you are forcing me to the back of the store."

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    Horrible First Encounter Open Carrying.

    That is good because you were recording, but if the officers did not acknowledge your statement that they were forcing you, they might yet claim that they were not. Make them take an undeniable overt act.


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    I would've refused to go to the back of the store.

    asking if you're being detained though was useless at that point, you were obviously being detained. When he said in the loud elevated voice "I WILL NOT ASK AGAIN" I would stated "I do not consent to this detention and would like to speak with an attorney" Then if he's going to arrest you he's going to arrest you, you can't help that, but by forcing his hand you would've had a better case for a civil suit, not to say you weren't wronged, you certainly were.

    If you can find a lawyer who will take the case then go for the Title 42 USC action. If money is no object to you you can always request prosecution under 18 USC 242, which is a criminal charge and not civil liability. Never heard of a cop prosecuted under that statute but never hurts to try.

    This is in addition to seeking relief under state statutes and filing complaints against the officers involved too.
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    Mr. Trujillo also said his Department will attempt to identify what circumstances, if any, under the law of trespass in New Mexico, police officers may act on behalf of private property owners to ask people carrying guns to leave private property, or if the private owner or his agent must provide this notice.
    This dude is a real piece of work. Get smacked down and keep on keeping on. Though, he did officially state that a future policy will be to have some beat cop act for a property owner if they could get away with it. So much for property rights in this dudes mind.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Horrible First Encounter Open Carrying.

    In Alabama, the owner or his agent must trespass someone. I have personal experience with this one. The officers at Target tried desperately to trespass me. The manager called corporate. They told him no. He told the officers no.

    I issued a mental raspberry at the officers.


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    Quote Originally Posted by armyman_83 View Post
    Hello All,

    I posted this story on the Alabama Open Carry website and wanted to post it here, to spread the attention I think it needs, to remind us to remain vigilant. This is part of the initial post I put on the a forum months ago, and I feel I need to share this here at the national level.:

    A while back I had my first encounter with LEO’s while Open Carrying. I thought I would open carry while my girlfriend and I went around and did errands. We get to Wal-Mart in Auburn and as we get out of the car a large black truck honks its horn at us. At first we ignore it, then he continues. We stop and turn around, a man opens his door and tells me I need to conceal my weapon. I told the man politely that I didn’t need too, that Open carry is legal.

    He retorted that it wasn’t, then “asked” me to conceal my weapon before I went inside the store. I told him I didn’t have to and he informed me he was a Lee county Sheriff Deputy—He was not in uniform and he did not present a badge or I.D. He got out of his vehicle and got in my face. I told him Article 1 sec. 26 (of the State Constitution) allowed me to carry. He asked if I was a lawyer and I said I didn’t have to tell him. I just figured I would walk away, I didn’t want problems. He said he would call “the boys.” And returned to his truck.
    My girlfriend and I proceeded to go inside Wal-Mart. We shopped as normal, and then I saw uniformed Auburn Police officers wandering the store. They hadn’t spotted me, but I knew they were looking for me. So I wanted to let them know I didn’t mean any harm I politely approached an officer and said “There was a man outside who said I couldn’t open carry…”

    LEO(1): “So you’re the guy? Where is it?”
    I showed the officer my weapon by canting my hip.
    LEO (1): “Okay, I’m going to take it—“ He proceeds to take my weapon “You can Open Carry but I’m going to take it.”
    Me: “I do not consent to any illegal searches”
    LEO(1): “You are not being searched”
    Me: “You are seizing my weapon illegally officer.”
    I asked if I was being detained, he said no.

    With my weapon in his hand he orders me to the back of the store, I ask him if we can do this in public. He has just disarmed me and is ordering me to a secluded area. He then tells me he will move me by force if needed to the back of the store. I say I will comply only because you are forcing me.
    He calls his fellow LEO’s we go to the back near the bathroom area and there they officers question me. One went to fine the Wal-Mart staff. LEO 1 unloaded my weapon and set it on a counter nearby.

    Wal-Mart staff comes out eventually after more harassment from these police officers. The Manager asks if everything is under control. He said that so long as I was following state law then it was fine no matter what I did. The cops were adamant in their opinion that I had to concealed carry, but they also said open carry was legal. They said I was on Private property and that I couldn’t open carry. I said there was no signs posted, and no Wal-Mart employee told me to stop Open Carrying. I have the full dialogue on my phone audio recorder and I have some really horrible footage on my handy dandy “HD” watch camera (with audio). I always carry it just in case of this kind of BS.
    Eventually a Wal-Mart manager, not the head guy (he had left when he said there were no problems reported in the store) was badgered by the cops to get me to either conceal my weapon or put it in the trunk of my car. I said I would do what Wal-Mart wanted, because it’s their property and I respect their rights. They asked me to conceal it. I would have just left but my girl needed some stuff from the store, so we shopped as normal after they gave me back my weapon.

    *The Auburn Police Department only met with me after I attempted many times to get into contact with them. Once I was with them they pretty much chided me for Open Carrying. All I wanted was for them the tell Wal-Mart that I wasn't wrong from Open Carrying. At this meeting asked me if I was recording them--public servents, on public property, during the commission of the public duties. I may or may not have recorded them (In Alabama we are a "one party state"). Their lack of response and belittling remarks show that they don't care. They actually told me I would get hassled for Open Carrying. But anyway---here is the video. It is the audio from my phone (it was better quality), kind of soft but check it out, there are two parts.

    Part I: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1dBhO1NBtg&feature=plcp

    Part II: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gR7XnHDJxn0

    If this is not the right place for this, admins please move it. Thank you.
    If it is illegal to OC then the deputy would have just arrested you instead of the nonsense that followed. He obviously didn't know what to do or his State's own gun laws.

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    Quote Originally Posted by saiga12boy View Post
    I wouldn't have let them take my gun. And I will never let cops take my gun.
    kid, you may not know this, but even if a cop is outside his authority, physically fighting or resisting him is a bad idea. let me break this down for you

    He takes your gun, you verbally refuse but don't physically resist, you can complain and possibly take legal action

    you do physically resist him you get shot and people will think you were "an attempted cop-killer" and if you survive you can expect to be prosecuted for assaulting an officer and see a profound change in your quality of life.

    DO NOT physically fight with an officer over the gun.
    You do not know if RAS really does exist or not from your point of view at the time the incident occurs. what if someone reported someone matching your description as fleeing the scene of a robbery? you wouldn't know that, and officers do not often reveal evidence when investigating suspects. There is no obligation to justify probable cause TO YOU. probable cause comes into play when his sergeant has to approve the arrest and you are arraigned before a judge. not to you on the side of the road.

    very bad idea to resist in that fashion...
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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    Quote Originally Posted by SPOProds View Post
    Sue. USC 42 among other US statuses.
    Quote Originally Posted by armyman_83 View Post
    I took it to a gun friendly lawyer and he said I couldn't really pursue, or at least that it wouldn't be worth it. Unless I had been arrested. :/
    Even without an arrest you were detained with no reasonable suspicion of there being a crime afoot. Your personal effects were also seized.
    Kinda reminds me of what happened to me... GeorgiaCarry.Org or "Pirkled at the Park."
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 11-29-2012 at 06:26 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by saiga12boy View Post
    I know there's a risk but they're not taking my gun because I refuse to bow down and let them take my rights away.( I know that's not what you were implying so please don't take it personal.) I'd try to walk away first but if they told me to hand my gun over I would refuse and tell them my rights. If they asked again i'd put my hand on my gun. And if they threatened me i'd pull my gun out. If they attempted to pull theirs out i'd shoot. My state has the "make my day" law so I couldn't be prosecuted. ( Though the other cops would find me and attempt to kill me for it and make up some reason why it's justified)
    P.S. I'm not one of those people that thinks they're invincible and that they'll win every gunfight I just believe that to protect my and everyone else's rights I would risk my life. Though I would prefer for it to end without bloodshed.
    Please take an old soldier's advice: If you take the actions you have outlined above, you will be shot the instant you put your hand on your gun. Don't do it. It is far better to passively resist and, when they do take the firearm and you have it all recorded, take them to Federal court and take them for everything you can.

    FWIW, if you did succeed in shooting the cop trying to take your weapon, you would, repeat WOULD, be prosecuted. I wouldn't place any bets against you also being convicted and sentenced to a very long stretch in prison.

    Again please take my advice and also do some legal research. As Momma used to say, "You're leading your ducks to a very dangerous pond."
    "Happiness is a warm shotgun!!"
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    ...You do not know if RAS really does exist or not from your point of view at the time the incident occurs...
    This is the key. If the officer has RAS, physically resisting him is a crime, potentially a felony. Always refuse to consent, make the officer take on overt act, but do not resist.

    Anything else is foolish and risky.

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    I'll also second the advice to NOT put your hand on your weapon. I guarantee that is the quickest way to get yourself killed. And I can almost take bets that most officers can draw and fire faster than you. We do it thousands of times, whereas most common citizen does not. That may not be true in your case though.

    Consult another attorney.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beantownfan321 View Post
    I'll also second the advice to NOT put your hand on your weapon. I guarantee that is the quickest way to get yourself killed. And I can almost take bets that most officers can draw and fire faster than you. We do it thousands of times, whereas most common citizen does not. That may not be true in your case though.

    Consult another attorney.
    saiga12boy:

    And to put the two points together in a way that will hopefully drive the message home: The officer having capped the helloutta your center mass can be found to be justified. You have no idea of the totality of the circumstances surrounding the officer's reason for approaching you. You may assume that it is because he knows you have done nothing wrong and wishes to roust you, or that he is just ignorant of the law. But, if it is because of a 911 call saying that someone fitting your description took out an openly carried firearm, waved it about, and threatened folks, the officer will surely shoot your ass the instant you touch your firearm--and he will be justified in doing so!

    In the threads posted later on the subject, many here would see that as proof that all LEOs are evil, and I would be getting into an argument that he was just doing what he had to do under the circumstances, and that YOU acted incredibly stupidly, volunteering to have your genes removed from the pool, slightly decreasing the chance of such foolishness by a new someone in the future.
    Last edited by eye95; 11-30-2012 at 09:30 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    That is good because you were recording, but if the officers did not acknowledge your statement that they were forcing you, they might yet claim that they were not. Make them take an undeniable overt act.


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    Another thing the OP has going for him since this was recorded is the LEO saying "If you don't go to the back, I will drag you to the back" With that phrase on audio it will be nearly impossible for the LEO to claim the move was consensual.
    A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.- Thomas Jefferson March 4 1801

  22. #22
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    Sorry you had to go through this.

    When someone claims you are not being detained, there is no RAS.

    When someone claims you are not being detained but you are not free to go, this has moved to false arrest. (My opinion)

    I too was threatened with more harassment if I continued to OC, I continued to OC. Find a better lawyer, qualified immunity does not apply here especially since they acknowledge OC is legal.

    Have you asked for the reports yet? Who wants to bet they will be full of misleading information and untruths.
    Last edited by sudden valley gunner; 12-04-2012 at 08:36 AM.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  23. #23
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    damn! just plain damn! your not....your not.....but you still get rousted. causing a-larm! on private property no less, then tell you to shut up when you try to speak the law the truth. i guess liberals can get jobs as cops afterall, and use it to promote their liberal agenda on a law abiding public!

    kinda reminds me of a dinner i had some years back in Culvers in Madison. or maybe a clip of the classic Cheech & Ching bit:

    sign the papers old man.

    i cant.

    why?

    Because you have broken both my hands.


    .......................sue the bastards.


    added; listening to part 2 now; got the AK-47 bit, a classic in ignorance. heard the complaint about loud music- put a volume control on your gun! i hate to stereo type- though they sure as hell stereo typed you, but did these cops marry their sisters?!
    Last edited by McX; 12-04-2012 at 09:24 AM.

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    Horrible First Encounter Open Carrying.

    Some cops are cops because they feel it is a way to serve. Your post seems to imply that cops generally enter the field ONLY for the power. I don't believe that for one second, nor do I believe that we should generalize from what some officers do.


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    Re: Horrible First Encounter Open Carrying.

    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Some cops are cops because they feel it is a way to serve. Your post seems to imply that cops generally enter the field ONLY for the power. I don't believe that for one second, nor do I believe that we should generalize from what some officers do.


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    I know a few cops that only became cops because it's a family tradition...


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