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Thread: SB 59 passes the Senate with cost to Open Carriers :(

  1. #1
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    SB 59 passes the Senate with cost to Open Carriers :(

    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  2. #2
    Regular Member Slave's Avatar
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    So ridiculous. Makes me wonder if we are going to get the calls for phantom brandishing if this crap passes. We MUST get the house to oppose this bill.

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    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    I have a hard time comprehending this legal stuff sometimes. what exactly does this mean-

    "shall not intentionally display or openly carry a pistol on the premises listed in subsection (1)(a) to (h)"

    does it mean that if 59 passes we could ONLY cc in the current PFZ's? does it affect OC in any areas other than current PFZ's
    If guns cause crime, all mine are defective- Ted Nugent

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    I just read through it, and I didn't see that, where is it?

    If it is in there, we need to focus on getting the house to strip it out in committee.

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    Quote Originally Posted by detroit_fan View Post
    I have a hard time comprehending this legal stuff sometimes. what exactly does this mean-

    "shall not intentionally display or openly carry a pistol on the premises listed in subsection (1)(a) to (h)"

    does it mean that if 59 passes we could ONLY cc in the current PFZ's?
    Yes, that's what it means.

    does it affect OC in any areas other than current PFZ's
    No, it doesn't affect OC elsewhere.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Small_Arms_Collector View Post
    I just read through it, and I didn't see that, where is it?

    If it is in there, we need to focus on getting the house to strip it out in committee.

    If the house strips it, it goes back to the senate to pass again.

    but all that is moot, since the Governor has said he'll only sign it if the OC prohibition is there.

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    I too had trouble with the legalese, but did notice the part about not being able to OC in pistol-free zones.

    By the way, what was the benefit, if any, to be found in the bill?

    Regardless, this bill should be opposed. Absolutely no rights should be lost in comprimise!

    If the Governor won't sign the bill without the open carry ban, then so be it!

    PS this link: http://www.migunowners.org/forum/sho...&postcount=923 was not working, but it could just have been a network problem on my end.
    Last edited by OC4me; 11-29-2012 at 06:31 PM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC4me View Post
    By the way, what was the benefit, if any, to be found in the bill?
    The benefit is that one would be allowed to conceal in this state without Pistol Free Zones (Except courthouses and casinos, of course).

    With the tradeoff being that you can't OPENLY carry in these same PFZs.

    So you're basically allowing 330,000 people to carry concealed where they couldn't before in exchange for the hundred-odd people who were carrying there before.

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    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zigziggityzoo View Post
    The benefit is that one would be allowed to conceal in this state without Pistol Free Zones (Except courthouses and casinos, of course).

    With the tradeoff being that you can't OPENLY carry in these same PFZs.

    So you're basically allowing 330,000 people to carry concealed where they couldn't before in exchange for the hundred-odd people who were carrying there before.
    it would also eliminate the county gun boards wouldn't it?
    If guns cause crime, all mine are defective- Ted Nugent

  10. #10
    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zigziggityzoo View Post
    If the house strips it, it goes back to the senate to pass again.

    but all that is moot, since the Governor has said he'll only sign it if the OC prohibition is there.
    so there is confirmation snyder would sign it with the OC provision?

    also, how did this get added, who introduced this amendment?

    do you think this is retaliation for the MOC(and others) going after Randy?
    If guns cause crime, all mine are defective- Ted Nugent

  11. #11
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    SB 59 passes the Senate with cost to Open Carriers :(

    Quote Originally Posted by detroit_fan View Post

    do you think this is retaliation for the MOC(and others) going after Randy?
    I don't believe so. It's due to Snyder
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  12. #12
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    SB 59 passes the Senate with cost to Open Carriers :(

    Quote Originally Posted by detroit_fan View Post
    so there is confirmation snyder would sign it with the OC provision?
    Yes, as much as a politician can be believed.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  13. #13
    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    I don't believe so. It's due to Snyder
    ok, i wouldn't be surprised to find out it is an attempt at payback though

    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Yes, as much as a politician can be believed.
    isn't that the truth!
    If guns cause crime, all mine are defective- Ted Nugent

  14. #14
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    So we'd basically be reversing roles.

    Currently a CCer, if he wants to carry in a CC PFZ, must switch to OC.

    If this passes then when an OCer w/CPL enters into a PFZ, he would have to switch to CC.

    Is that the nuts & bolts of it?

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. Thomas Paine

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    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    So we'd basically be reversing roles.

    Currently a CCer, if he wants to carry in a CC PFZ, must switch to OC.

    If this passes then when an OCer w/CPL enters into a PFZ, he would have to switch to CC.

    Is that the nuts & bolts of it?

    Bronson
    yes, but one important aspect of it would be that there would be no "loophole", the law would clearly state that carrying concealed in a pfz would be legal(with addt'l training). we all accept OC w/cpl as legal now, but it is not as "black and white" as it would be with 59 passed.

    also, i think this would eliminate county gun boards
    If guns cause crime, all mine are defective- Ted Nugent

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    Quote Originally Posted by zigziggityzoo View Post
    So you're basically allowing 330,000 people to carry concealed where they couldn't before in exchange for the hundred-odd people who were carrying there before.
    Yup. And as one of the more active supporters of open carry and MOC, I believe it is totally worth it. Eliminate pistol free zones for CC and we'll deal with the anti OC provision down the road.

    Think about it, we are trading a grey area loophole(not grey you say, ask Judge Aquilina) that some OCers who have CPL's don't even use for the the ability of all CPL holders to CC in 99% of the state.
    Last edited by scot623; 11-29-2012 at 07:58 PM.

  17. #17
    Regular Member cmdr_iceman71's Avatar
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    Yes one will be able to CC in PFZ but that's only if:

    (k) An individual who applies for and is granted an exemption



    from this section by the licensing authority. An individual is



    eligible for an exemption from this section only if the individual



    requests an exemption on his or her license application and 1 or



    more of the following apply:



    (i) The individual is a licensee or is applying for an initial



    or renewal license or an exemption under this subdivision who



    provides a certificate indicating on its face that the individual





    has completed not less than 8 hours of training in addition to the



    training required under sections 5b(7)(c) and 5j that satisfies all



    of the following conditions:



    (A) It includes both classroom and range time.



    (B) It includes the firing of not fewer than an additional 94



    rounds.



    (C) It focuses on the training principles described in section



    5b(7)(c) as they apply to public places and premises listed in



    subsection (1) as limited under subsection (5).



    (D) It is provided by an agency of this state or by a national



    or state firearms training organization.



    (E) The training instructor is certified as a firearms



    instructor by this state or by a national or state firearms



    training organization and is eligible under section 5j to provide



    training under section 5b(7)(c).



    (F) The training is completed not more than 5 years



    immediately preceding the date of application for an original or



    renewal license or an exemption under this subdivision.



    (ii) The individual is certified as a firearms instructor by



    this state or by a national or state firearms training



    organization, and is eligible under section 5j to provide training



    under section 5b(7)(c). It is prima facie evidence that the



    individual is eligible for an exemption under this subparagraph if



    the individual possesses a certificate as a firearms instructor



    issued by this state or by a national or state firearms training



    organization that meets the requirements of section 5j.
    "Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth." - President George Washington

    "Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty." - Thomas Jefferson

    "He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself." - Thomas Paine

  18. #18
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    ^Yup. I've taken additional handgun training that meets the qualifications for the exemption. Hopefully a lot of us have. We always say a CPL class is just the start and additional training should be something most people should get. Now those who actually care enough to follow through with the additional training get a HUGE benefit from it.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Most regulars here no doubt remember how against the grain I was with not liking this law when it allowed the same OCing as we have now in CEZ's.

    To take that away, and then add some silly class that probably doesn't involve much of anything practical in order to get that back, but without the benefit of being able to OC, seems ridiculous to me. It is in fact a step in the wrong direction, because it is nothing short of further making a right into a privilege.

    This reminds me of the AZ bar law, where they went ahead and mandated CC and no OC, and only for those who are licensed. That one was pushed for by the NRA. What's going on behind the scenes here I'd really love to know.

    I am available to go to Lansing tomorrow, since I have that day off. If anyone who is more in the know about this than I am would like to join me in talking to some politicians tomorrow or any other friday, count me in.
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    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scot623 View Post
    Yup. And as one of the more active supporters of open carry and MOC, I believe it is totally worth it. Eliminate pistol free zones for CC and we'll deal with the anti OC provision down the road.

    Think about it, we are trading a grey area loophole(not grey you say, ask Judge Aquilina) that some OCers who have CPL's don't even use for the the ability of all CPL holders to CC in 99% of the state.
    i am torn on this bill now, but i agree with what you said. i currently don't OC in PFZ's because I can not afford thousands of dollars to fight a BS charge. being able to CC in PFZ's would be very valuable to me.
    If guns cause crime, all mine are defective- Ted Nugent

  21. #21
    Regular Member MikeTheGreek's Avatar
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    F**k me, like the laws weren't confusing enough before.

    Do they make an "OC For Idiots" book anywhere that I could buy?

  22. #22
    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    snip-

    What's going on behind the scenes here I'd really love to know.
    are you not buying the "snyder will only sign it with the no OC" excuse?
    Last edited by detroit_fan; 11-29-2012 at 08:39 PM.
    If guns cause crime, all mine are defective- Ted Nugent

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    Quote Originally Posted by scot623 View Post
    ^Yup. I've taken additional handgun training that meets the qualifications for the exemption. Hopefully a lot of us have. We always say a CPL class is just the start and additional training should be something most people should get. Now those who actually care enough to follow through with the additional training get a HUGE benefit from it.
    Last March, I took a day off work to go make a public comment at the Senate committee meeting in support of SB 59. I went to additional training a few weeks later in anticipation of this passing. I'm ready for an exemption.

  24. #24
    Regular Member cmdr_iceman71's Avatar
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    We OCers are going to get hit with a one-two punch. First our right to OC in a PFZ is curtialed in exchange for the priviledge to CC in a PFZ. The other fist will strike when the legislators will come back after the first self-defense shooting in a PFZ and say ok the no gun signs now have force of law. So even though you can legally CC in a PFZ, every PFZ you see will have a sign up.

    Our legislators will be saying behind closed doors: Thanks for playing suckers.
    "Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth." - President George Washington

    "Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty." - Thomas Jefferson

    "He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself." - Thomas Paine

  25. #25
    Regular Member griffin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scot623 View Post
    ^Yup. I've taken additional handgun training that meets the qualifications for the exemption.
    Are you sure? I'd have to go back and cross-reference all the references, but typically the new law would mandate new training that specifically references the changed law, and your new cert would have to state that, just as the current CPL does.

    In any event, I'll wait to see what the final legislation is. In general I am in favor of the law as I understand it, except for the additional training, of course.
    "If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
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