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Thread: MCRGO indicates a compromise has been reached on HB5225

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    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    MCRGO indicates a compromise has been reached on HB5225

    from their facebook page-

    MORE BREAKING NEWS: MCRGO has received word that a compromise has been reached on HB 5225 and that the bill will be taken up and passed by the Senate on Tuesday. We don't know the details yet of this compromise, because unlike SB 59, the NRA, not MCRGO, is the lead group on this bill. We suspect the compromise will change the House language that eliminates all background checks including those for private party sales.

    link-

    http://www.facebook.com/mcrgo
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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Looking back at when the MCRGO was bigger, they were deeply in bed with the NRA. Basically a money funnel for the NRA, that much was clear to anyone who read their news letters, and not long after that most of us know how and why they went to ****. Them having this news ahead of time would indeed suggest they are still in bed together, and I would also guess that the NRA has quite a bit more knowledge on the current SB59 than we do.

    I almost wish I had a facebook account, because I can't read the articles in that link. I suppose re posting them in their entirety might be against rules, but if someone could PM me relevant segments I'd appreciate it.

    I am scrambling to figure out what in the hell is going on. Anyone who is a regular on here who might know more than I do who would like to talk about this on the phone with me, please call me. Whatever I end up doing tomorrow, all of my energy is going to be devoted to sorting this out. I do know I will be calling politicians and asking questions first thing in the morning.
    Last edited by Michigander; 11-29-2012 at 10:04 PM.
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    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    michigander- there isn't really an article on the FB page, what i posted is the only statement they made on the page. I will update you if they post more.

    they also just posted this-

    The board of Michigan Open Carry has just voted to support the version of Senate Bill 59 passed today by the Senate. MCRGO and MOC will be issuing a joint statement of support tomorrow.
    If guns cause crime, all mine are defective- Ted Nugent

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    To further put things in context, let's consider Carrol Bambery. http://www.carolbamberynra.com/

    To say that the NRA and MCRGO are intertwined seems very obvious. The NRA loves MCRGO, or at least did at one time, using them as powerful grass roots muscle, and yet the NRA seems to hate us and everything we stand for. We do know that the NRA blocked open carry in Florida, blocked it partially in AZ, and now it would appear very possible that Michigan Open Carry is going to work with the NRA/MCRGO to outlaw it some while also enabling the NRA to make some money on further classes. Though I am not sure it will make a huge difference, since untold thousands of CPL holders CC in CEZ's anyway as is, and few OCers OC regularly in CEZ's, it still seems like something I'd have thought we wouldn't want.

    While I have stepped away from MOC, perhaps permanently due to what seems to be irreconcilable differences, I would kindly ask that those on the MOC board, whoever it is these days, or any other MOC leaders who don't want me to go all out nuts tomorrow trying to lobby to stop this from passing contact me to tell me what is going on and why it makes sense. I am not liking the way this sounds one bit, but am open to hearing why this would be best. PM me for my phone number if interested.
    Last edited by Michigander; 11-29-2012 at 10:27 PM.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    Quote Originally Posted by detroit_fan View Post
    The board of Michigan Open Carry has just voted to support the version of Senate Bill 59 passed today by the Senate. MCRGO and MOC will be issuing a joint statement of support tomorrow.
    I would suggest you reconsider support for a bill whose "certain rights" are expanded only via an exception or exemption avenues ... have you considered that cops may still arrest upstanding citizens for using their new rights? And a 42 USC 1983 claim will never prevail against the police who wish to view the new rights in a negative light...because the new rights are based upon affirmative defenses....there is no mechanism for protecting these new rights ... and only suffering, loss of $$$, and possible jail time for those arrested.

    If the new HB is similar to the SB passed ....
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 11-30-2012 at 12:35 AM.

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    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    I would suggest you reconsider support for a bill whose "certain rights" are expanded only via an exception or exemption avenues ... have you considered that cops may still arrest upstanding citizens for using their new rights? And a 42 USC 1983 claim will never prevail against the police who wish to view the new rights in a negative light...because the new rights are based upon affirmative defenses....there is no mechanism for protecting these new rights ... and only suffering, loss of $$$, and possible jail time for those arrested.

    If the new HB is similar to the SB passed ....
    I am not a MOC board member, I was simply posting an update form a facebook page.
    If guns cause crime, all mine are defective- Ted Nugent

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    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    From MCRGO facebook page-

    HB 5225 UPDATE: We've learned that the compromise on HB 5225 is that there is no compromise. NRA won't give in to Gov. Snyder on private party sales. The Senate is expected to pass the House version that eliminates all purchase permits and registration this coming Tuesday. Snyder likely won't sign the bill resulting in a pocket veto.
    If guns cause crime, all mine are defective- Ted Nugent

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    Regular Member griffin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    have you considered that cops may still arrest upstanding citizens for using their new rights?
    How? If your CPL says you are exempt, you are exempt. Am I missing something?
    "If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley
    "...go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." Samuel Adams
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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    I would suggest you reconsider support for a bill whose "certain rights" are expanded only via an exception or exemption avenues ... have you considered that cops may still arrest upstanding citizens for using their new rights? And a 42 USC 1983 claim will never prevail against the police who wish to view the new rights in a negative light...because the new rights are based upon affirmative defenses....there is no mechanism for protecting these new rights ... and only suffering, loss of $$$, and possible jail time for those arrested.

    If the new HB is similar to the SB passed ....
    When someone has the exempt box checked on their CPL and it is due to a legal exception that exception shows up in LEIN. Thus the police would know when they run your ID that you are legally allowed to carry there. This would be no different than any of the other excepted groups such as Reserve officers and judges and PI's since I have seen no rashes of them being arrested for being in a PFZ with the exemption checked I doubt your premise holds any water.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    I have a certain set of skills .....

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    I have a certain set of skills .....
    I wouldn't brag about it.....
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    "officer, I'm not technically exempt...but I did stay at a holiday inn!"
    The worst weapon is the human mind, its created and done things far worse than a gun can, has, or ever will. Its the human mind that tells the gun what to do and animates the inanimate object.

    With all these gun control laws in place I have yet to find a single one that has saved someones life, but I can find hundreds of stories where a gun has.

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yance View Post
    "officer, i'm not technically exempt...but i did stay at a holiday inn express!"
    fifw
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    Is anyone else getting dizzy in this flurry of action during the lame duck?

    For those who don't remember, HB5225 is a bill to end pistol registration and Purchase Permits. It has been said that MSP are the ones most actively opposing, and Snyder does not want private party sales w/o background checks. The NRA is the lead on this bill, and here is the latest update on HB5225 per MCRGO(keep in mind all of this may change any minute)-

    "LAME DUCK UPDATE: Senate leadership has confirmed that the NRA and Governor Snyder have reached a deal on HB 5225 (eliminates registration and purchase permits). The details of the deal and the substitute bill are not yet public. The Senate will pass HB 5225 within the coming week and Governor Snyder will sign the bill."


    Now I have no information as to what the "deal" was, and if Snyder and the MSP are agreeing to it who knows what's in it. We should all keep an eye on this one imo
    Last edited by detroit_fan; 12-07-2012 at 04:31 PM.
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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by detroit_fan View Post
    Is anyone else getting dizzy in this flurry of action during the lame duck?

    For those who don't remember, HB5225 is a bill to end pistol registration and Purchase Permits. It has been said that MSP are the ones most actively opposing, and Snyder does not want private party sales w/o background checks. The NRA is the lead on this bill, and here is the latest update on HB5225 per MCRGO(keep in mind all of this may change any minute)-

    "LAME DUCK UPDATE: Senate leadership has confirmed that the NRA and Governor Snyder have reached a deal on HB 5225 (eliminates registration and purchase permits). The details of the deal and the substitute bill are not yet public. The Senate will pass HB 5225 within the coming week and Governor Snyder will sign the bill."


    Now I have no information as to what the "deal" was, and if Snyder and the MSP are agreeing to it who knows what's in it. We should all keep an eye on this one imo
    I didn't see anywhere saying MSP was in favor of the "deal". The fact there is a "deal" makes me nervous. I pray we don't switch to FOID cards.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    I didn't see anywhere saying MSP was in favor of the "deal". The fact there is a "deal" makes me nervous. I pray we don't switch to FOID cards.
    You are correct, there is no indication that the MSP is in favor of it, but considering Snyder has said all along that the MSP do not support it, and the MSP have actively lobbied against it, I would say that it's more likely than not that anything Snyder agrees to sign will have the blessing of our overlords(MSP)

    The compromise scares the hell out of me too, who knows what it is. Then again, as fast as things are changing who even knows if it will move at all
    If guns cause crime, all mine are defective- Ted Nugent

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by detroit_fan View Post
    You are correct, there is no indication that the MSP is in favor of it, but considering Snyder has said all along that the MSP do not support it, and the MSP have actively lobbied against it, I would say that it's more likely than not that anything Snyder agrees to sign will have the blessing of our overlords(MSP)

    The compromise scares the hell out of me too, who knows what it is. Then again, as fast as things are changing who even knows if it will move at all
    Either way I'm predicting blood flowing through our streets!
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    I hear registration will be gone, but private party sales will still require a background check. Not sure how that will work out, if true.

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    Regular Member griffin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scot623 View Post
    I hear registration will be gone, but private party sales will still require a background check. Not sure how that will work out, if true.
    Private party sales already play by the same rules as FFL sales. The buyer is required to have a permit to purchase or a CPL. What the heck are you guys talking about?
    "If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley
    "...go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." Samuel Adams
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    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    Either way I'm predicting blood flowing through our streets!
    don't forget the wild west shootouts!

    Quote Originally Posted by scot623 View Post
    I hear registration will be gone, but private party sales will still require a background check. Not sure how that will work out, if true.
    at this point i would take that over a pocket veto of the entire bill. registration repeal would be a HUGE win for 2A in MI imo.
    If guns cause crime, all mine are defective- Ted Nugent

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    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by griffin View Post
    Private party sales already play by the same rules as FFL sales. The buyer is required to have a permit to purchase or a CPL. What the heck are you guys talking about?
    the original 5225 would have eliminated registration, but also legalized private sales of pistols without a cpl/PP, just like long guns and shotguns.

    the "compromise" version may include registration repeal, but keep PP/CPL requirements for pistols in place.
    If guns cause crime, all mine are defective- Ted Nugent

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    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoiledFrogs View Post
    If that is true, then wouldn't the buyer and seller have to go through an FFL? If that happens, then the 18-20 year olds will no longer be able to buy handguns in the state, (including enlisted), because the FFL will not be able to complete the transfer.
    couldn't they still require PP? so you go to police, get PP, then you can buy one legally, just don't have to register it. anyone selling a handgun would have to see a CPL or PP to sell to them.
    If guns cause crime, all mine are defective- Ted Nugent

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    Regular Member griffin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by detroit_fan View Post
    the original 5225 would have eliminated registration, but also legalized private sales of pistols without a cpl/PP, just like long guns and shotguns.
    Ah, thanks. Haven't been following that one.
    "If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley
    "...go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." Samuel Adams
    Wheels

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    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoiledFrogs View Post
    I really don't know. We don't know if the police will even have a LTP to give. My guess is, no, they would not have a permit to give, because they will not be allowed to keep records any longer. As you know, the LTP copies are normally returned to the PD for filing into records.

    If it goes through NICS via FFL, the youngsters are SOL.


    I suppose we will have to wait for the text of the amended bill.
    Indeed, I'm anxiously-nervous to see the revised bill
    If guns cause crime, all mine are defective- Ted Nugent

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by detroit_fan View Post
    Indeed, I'm anxiously-nervous to see the revised bill
    Me too. For my sake, everyone in Michigan, and others 18-20 I really hope they don't end up requiring it to go through an FFL. If Snyder makes a "compromise" I'd hope it'd be something like a "License to purchase, possess, transport, and carry a pistol". Once you obtain that you can purchase, possess, transport, or carry any handgun and not have to register them. And it would allow for an exemption to the GFSZA.
    Last edited by xmanhockey7; 12-07-2012 at 07:05 PM.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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