Page 1 of 6 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 143

Thread: A statement from the leadership of Michigan Open Carry on the Passage of SB 59

  1. #1
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Lansing, Michigan
    Posts
    3,448

    A statement from the leadership of Michigan Open Carry on the Passage of SB 59

    Friends of Michigan Open Carry, Inc.

    There is exciting news out of Lansing regarding SB-59. It has passed the Senate and now moves to the House of Representatives for discussion. The bill has new language included which eliminates the "open carry in a PFZ with a CPL" loophole. This new language was included in a compromise. Michigan's 340,000+ CPL holders will now have the option to obtain an 8 additional hours of handgun training and then be able to conceal carry anywhere in the state except courts, casinos, and Federal buildings. When this bill is passed in the Michigan House of Representatives and signed by the Governor, Michigan CPL holders with the additional training exemption will enjoy more freedom to carry concealed than in any other state. In addition to these changes, CPL licensing will now move to the county Sheriff streamlining the process. Michigan Open Carry Inc. is happy to support this bill for the greater good of all firearm owners in Michigan. It is our hope this bill will quickly pass and be signed into law.

    /s/
    Phillip Hofmeister, President
    Adam Yancer, Vice-President
    Randy Davis, Secretary
    Ryan Ransom, Treasurer
    Rob Harris, Media Director
    Jason S, IT Team
    Brian Jeffs, Research Director
    Sandi Beahan, Assistant SW Regional Coordinator
    Ryan Adams, Assistant SW Regional Coordinator
    Last edited by TheQ; 11-30-2012 at 02:37 AM.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  2. #2
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    earth's crust
    Posts
    17,838
    I foresee a world of hurt for gun owners in this bill who do decide to get additional training and end up being arrested and needing to prove their innocence.

    I would not support the bill as written...

  3. #3
    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Monroe, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,196
    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    I foresee a world of hurt for gun owners in this bill who do decide to get additional training and end up being arrested and needing to prove their innocence.
    can you explain that a little more? if someone gets the extra training why would they be arrested or in a "world of hurt".
    If guns cause crime, all mine are defective- Ted Nugent

  4. #4
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Mulligan's Valley
    Posts
    4,830
    My request for further information from MOC I posted in the other thread are as of yet not responded to. Thus, my plan is now to call the NRA directly tomorrow, because honestly the sucker punch nature of the open carry ban does seem like their typical style of Negotiating Rights Away, and maybe they'll even tell me as much. We'll see. I do know that MCRGO is almost entirely useless, having tried and failed to get even a token gesture of help from them in the past, so I'm sure seeking information from them would be of little use....

    I will ask again, for MOC to please contact me privately and explain the entire story, if you don't want me to do everything I can to go against you in this decision.
    Last edited by Michigander; 11-30-2012 at 12:29 AM.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

  5. #5
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Lansing, Michigan
    Posts
    3,448
    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    My request for further information from MOC I posted in the other thread are as of yet not responded to. Thus, my plan is now to calling the NRA directly tomorrow, because honestly the sucker punch nature of the open carry ban does seem like their typical style of Negotiating Rights Away, and maybe they'll even tell me as much. We'll see. I do know that MCRGO is almost entirely useless, having tried and failed to get even a token gesture of help from them in the past, so I'm sure seeking information from them would be of little use....

    I will ask again, for MOC to contact me privately and explain the entire story, if you don't want me to do everything I can to go against you in this decision.
    Glen,

    You do what you need to do.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  6. #6
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    earth's crust
    Posts
    17,838
    Quote Originally Posted by detroit_fan View Post
    can you explain that a little more? if someone gets the extra training why would they be arrested or in a "world of hurt".
    Because the state does not need to prove you did not have additional training to secure a conviction; its not an element they have to prove. So they'll have PC if they find you in a "restricted area, except to only those with additional training" ... you have to prove you have obtained the additional training required. Sounds reasonable right? Until you are facing prison time and then you understand that you need to do more than just show it .. you must prove it.

    I think its a trick by legislators across the county .. instead of putting the burden on the state, they shift it to the lawful gun owner. They can write the law in which the burden would be on the state .. they choose not to...why do you think that is?

    A few arrests of folks with additional training, even if found not guilty, will quash the new rights pronto. Who wants to spend 60K on a trial that is bogus? Or be found guilty because a judge agrees with a DA that the training actually did not meet the requirements?

    I have nothing to gain or lose from this bill .. I'm on the east coast .. so it's just my opinion without any political gain or loss attached to it

    People who own guns should check not just the law, but the court cases to see how the courts have viewed the gun laws...folks would learn much and see that the elements needed to prove guilty are minimal when it comes to the enforcement of gun laws. The courts are stacked against the average gun owner.
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 11-30-2012 at 12:30 AM.

  7. #7
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    earth's crust
    Posts
    17,838
    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    the sucker punch nature of the open carry ban does seem like their typical style of Negotiating Rights Away, .
    +1 NRA screwed the pooch on this one

  8. #8
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Mulligan's Valley
    Posts
    4,830
    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Glen,

    You do what you need to do.
    It is now clear that you are being hostile and defiant to my requests for information on why this is all happening, which if anything just adds fuel to the fire of my concerns.

    Though I am not entirely certain I want to try to kill this bill, I would ask that anyone who potentially wishes to lobby against this bill with me contact me by private message, or my email or phone if you have those, because it very much looks like MOC is going in a bad direction and doesn't want to admit it, and it would be best to be ready to make as large of an effort as possible if it comes to that.

    I am very open to being wrong, Phil, and would still very much appreciate it if you'd contact me tomorrow.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

  9. #9
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Lansing, Michigan
    Posts
    3,448
    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    It is now clear that you are being hostile and defiant to my requests for information on why this is all happening, which if anything just adds fuel to the fire of my concerns.

    Though I am not entirely certain I want to try to kill this bill, I would ask that anyone who potentially wishes to lobby against this bill with me contact me by private message, or my email or phone if you have those, because it very much looks like MOC is going in a bad direction and doesn't want to admit it, and it would be best to be ready to make as large of an effort as possible if it comes to that.

    I am very open to being wrong, Phil, and would still very much appreciate it if you'd contact me tomorrow.
    It's not defiance. I owe you no explanations; I don't answer to a man who has openly walked away from and denounced any affiliation with Michigan Open Carry, Inc. -- what hubris! I answer to the people who voted to support this bill -- they are all mentioned in the OP.

    BTW, see your PM
    Last edited by TheQ; 11-30-2012 at 07:39 AM.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  10. #10
    Regular Member griffin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Okemos, MI
    Posts
    884
    Q, did anyone ever tell you your bedside manner sucks?
    "If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley
    "...go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." Samuel Adams
    Wheels

  11. #11
    Regular Member fozzy71's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Roseville, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    932
    A statement from the leadership of Michigan Open Carry on the Passage of SB 59
    "I like users who quote smellslikemichigan in their signature lines." - fozzy71

  12. #12
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Lansing, Michigan
    Posts
    3,448
    Quote Originally Posted by griffin View Post
    Q, did anyone ever tell you your bedside manner sucks?
    Often. Maybe I should have just ignored him or pretended not to see it. I'm sure he would have been happy with that...?
    Last edited by TheQ; 11-30-2012 at 01:32 AM.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  13. #13
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Lansing, Michigan
    Posts
    3,448
    Quote Originally Posted by BoiledFrogs View Post
    It also requires you to CC. Meaning, if you OC by accident, you are guilty unless you can prove it's by accident. A slippery slope that prosecutors and judges like Aqualina will use against gun owners.
    There is arguably no penalty assigned in the law for intentional OC. That being said, any crime has to be proven (including mens rea/intention) beyond all reasonable doubt.

    PS, seen stainless1911 lately? Looked in a mirror?
    Last edited by TheQ; 11-30-2012 at 01:34 AM.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  14. #14
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    earth's crust
    Posts
    17,838
    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    . That being said, any crime has to be proven (including mens rea/intention) beyond all reasonable doubt.
    But creating a civil and criminal penalty would still require $$$ to defend, yes? And there is harm in just this, yes?

    One can win a case and still lose.

    The SB seems to create separate classes of similar carriers depending upon training, different penalties for violations, etc.

    Its a cluster puck. And cops? They'll be so confused they'll just take out the cuffs and let a judge figure it out.

    Any time you make the law complicated regarding hand guns then you can be assured who will end up on the short end of the stick ... the gunner... of this, there is no reasonable doubt.

    And many people will plead to a guilty plea on criminal charges because they and their lawyers don't understand the law.

  15. #15
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Lansing, Michigan
    Posts
    3,448

    A statement from the leadership of Michigan Open Carry on the Passage of SB 59

    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    But creating a civil and criminal penalty would still require $$$ to defend, yes? And there is harm in just this, yes?

    One can win a case and still lose.

    The SB seems to create separate classes of similar carriers depending upon training, different penalties for violations, etc.

    Its a cluster puck. And cops? They'll be so confused they'll just take out the cuffs and let a judge figure it out.

    Any time you make the law complicated regarding hand guns then you can be assured who will end up on the short end of the stick ... the gunner... of this, there is no reasonable doubt.

    And many people will plead to a guilty plea on criminal charges because they and their lawyers don't understand the law.
    OC in a PFZ with a CPL is arguably illegal right now. Read People v Watkins (2011, Judge Aquilina, Ingham County Circuit Court)
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  16. #16
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Lansing, Michigan
    Posts
    3,448

    A statement from the leadership of Michigan Open Carry on the Passage of SB 59

    Quote Originally Posted by BoiledFrogs View Post
    Exactly.
    More one-Words posts without quoting. Shocking. Guess who else did that...

    Anyhow, how's Waterford/Davison?
    Last edited by TheQ; 11-30-2012 at 03:06 AM.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  17. #17
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    earth's crust
    Posts
    17,838
    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    More one-Words posts without quoting. Shocking. Guess who else did that...

    Anyhow, how's Waterford/Davison?
    seems like he agreed with my posting .... like a "+1" post. I have done that in the past...and similar 1-word approvals.

    Hope this clears up his post for you.

    Keep the Faith !

  18. #18
    Regular Member griffin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Okemos, MI
    Posts
    884
    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    OC in a PFZ with a CPL is arguably illegal right now. Read People v Watkins (2011, Judge Aquilina, Ingham County Circuit Court)
    I disagree with your take entirely, although I understand why you are saying this.
    "If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley
    "...go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." Samuel Adams
    Wheels

  19. #19
    Regular Member griffin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Okemos, MI
    Posts
    884
    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    More one-Words posts without quoting. Shocking. Guess who else did that...

    Anyhow, how's Waterford/Davison?
    Big Gay Al has stated that Boiled Frogs is Stainless, but basically asked everyone to start over. Blessed are the merciful, Phil.
    "If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley
    "...go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." Samuel Adams
    Wheels

  20. #20
    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Saginaw, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,756
    A rant not directed at any individual or group of individuals.

    Let me see.....

    Some folks are all for exercising the right to bear arms....

    Some folks complain they have to jump through hoops to get the government's permission to have a concealed carry permit to make it easier to open carry. They complain loudly about "infringements" and talk about how great it would be to have "Constitutional carry".

    But then...

    Some folks get all excited that there will now be an extra, higher and more special, level of permission from the government that will allow people who meet new, more expensive, more stringent, criteria to qualify for that special permission....

    because this new permission allows a new privilege?

    It would appear to me the lawmakers are lounging in overstuffed leather covered chairs sipping brandy while smoking cigars and laughing about all those stupid gun owners who are now chasing this new carrot of having permission.. and being allowed... to be members of a new "special" class of people with a new level of "permission". And lining up to pay good money for it too!!!!

    And it seems to me that any new laws that add to current law concerning carry permits only strengthens and entrenches the power of the government to infringe upon the right to bear arms by requiring folks have the government's carry permit permission slip. Making Constitutional carry even more difficult to attain.

    And it seems very odd that anyone who believes in the right to bear arms would actually be in favor of increasing the government's power to regulate the bearing of arms just because there is a new "privilege" to be had.

    Rant over.............
    Last edited by Bikenut; 11-30-2012 at 06:58 AM.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

  21. #21
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Lansing, Michigan
    Posts
    3,448
    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    It's not defiance. I owe you no explanations; I don't answer to a man who has openly walked away from and denounced any affiliation with Michigan Open Carry, Inc. -- what hubris! I answer to the people who voted to support this bill -- they are all mentioned in the OP.

    BTW, see your PM
    Updated to reflect what I was trying to get across.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  22. #22
    Campaign Veteran
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    RTM, Lake Linden, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    232
    Yea, I am against this bill as voted on, but I am behind Phil and the rest of the Board and leadership team in their decision. They discussed, they made a decision, and we can't all agree on every single decision, we still need to stand together and stop the infighting or we all fail. Attacking each other and firearm organizations will help nothing. A decision needed to be made, we all won't agree on it, thats for sure, but I sure see hostility towards those who share our beliefs, even if they differed on my feelings for this bill, we don't need to talk to each other and accuse each other and start fights over it. We will NEVER agree 100% on everything, EVER, we all together have to understand that and continue to work together.

  23. #23
    State Researcher lockman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Elgin, Illinois, USA
    Posts
    1,202

    A statement from the leadership of Michigan Open Carry on the Passage of SB 59

    Does the bill change the prohibition on carry by persons with non-resident permits?
    Last edited by lockman; 11-30-2012 at 08:16 AM.

  24. #24
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Lansing, Michigan
    Posts
    3,448

    A statement from the leadership of Michigan Open Carry on the Passage of SB 59

    Quote Originally Posted by lockman View Post
    Does the bill change the prohibition on carry by persons with non-resident permits?
    This bill does not touch MCL 750.234d In any way. I hope this helps answer your question.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  25. #25
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Lansing area, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    6,446
    This bill was discussed with the Governor who adamantly opposed it and said he would not sign it because he doesn't want guns in GFZs. When someone pointed out that people can already carry in Gun Free Zones now with a CPL and was shown the MSP update, he then went "Oh" then if you add the no OC part to the bill I will sign it.

    So now the Gov is aware of the "loop-hole" and two things could happen, one would be worse, and the other is passing this bill which will make Michigan one of the only states that allow CPL holders to carry almost anywhere. This bill will affect, for the better, more that 340,000 CPL holders (and growing) in the state.

    Once this bill passes and the anti-gun people realize that nothing bad is happening by allowing guns in schools, bars, sports arenas, theaters, etc... then the Michigan gun rights organizations can work to remove the unconstitutional OC ban AND get all the GFZs eliminated for any law abiding gun owner regardless of whether they have a CPL or not.

    We didn't get into this mess in one step and we won't get our rights back in one step. Remember Constitutional Carry is the next big gun right fight and 4 states have it.

    I will say that the decision was a difficult and well discussed one. We tried to look at every angle and considered the possibilities of that decision. We knew full well MOC would get hit hard on the philosophical rights argument. We understand how some of our members feel and just hope that they will support us in our decision. In the end all things are political.

    So to recap MOC felt that supporting this bill was in the best interest of ALL people, both our members and non-members that carry firearms for personal protection. But as stated the fight isn't over we must stand together and be ever vigilant in the onerous battle for our gun rights.

    Brian Jeffs, MOC Director of Research
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

Page 1 of 6 123 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •