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  1. #1
    Regular Member Logan 5's Avatar
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    Question for the kids- school shooters

    I know of NO possible way for anyone to really know "for sure" (if even remotely) IF someone is going to be a "school shooter", similar to what happened at VA Tech a few years back. Am I wrong on this?

    I for one, though I do not OC, feel that everyone's far safer with students AND staff OC'ing on campus.


    Reflecting on the last time I attended college in the 90's, I remember how nervous the admissions staff became when they learned I was a gun collector.... I'd say it's hilarious, but I cannot even begin to imagine the third hand trauma they have being so fearful of a simple tool. (they learned from overhearing a discussion between myself and another gun collector that was attending the school)
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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    There is no way to know "for sure" if someone is going to be a school shooter, or a beauty pageant winner, but there are indicators of the liklihood for both.

    While society pays attention to the indicators of someone likely to become a pageant winner (possibly because the indicators are obvious?) there is less attention paid to the indicators that someone may become violent in any way. IMHO that is because people want to avoid admitting that violence exists and especially that it exists right in front of their face. While there are literally hundreds of book and articles that have been written about recognizing the potential for violence, and especially the potential for imminent violence, all directed at general audiences as opposed to mental health specialists, they are either not well known or are simply ignored.

    Go back and look at the accounts of all the school shooters - the warning signs were all there. In the Va Tech case someone actually tried to "do something" based on the warning signs. Sadly, what little was done failed to connect all of the available dots and there was no follow-through once someone passed the problem off to someone else.

    We do regular diagnostic checkups of our automobiles (or should) and attend to any problems as they are discovered instead of waiting for a catastrophic failure of a known problem part. We do not do that as well when it comes to people and their behaviors - partly because of an appropriate dislike of infringing on the right to, among other things, be crazy as a bat. However, it is no infringement on another's right to take steps to reduce one's exposure to harm should the crazy person suddenly explode into a killing frenzy - by either not being around the crazy person or, since we cannot know every crazy person, by having a means of defending against their killing spree once it starts. Guns are more efficient and effective than baseball bats, but baseball bats should not be ruled out just because of that. The choice to carry openly or discreetely is a personal one. So long as you do not infringe on another person's choice, you will get no complaint from me about how you carry - even though your active support for OC will be sadly missed.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    One way is to look at the list of drugs the person is taking and any interaction with CIA, NSA, FBI, etc, and foreign agencies.

    If they are being recruited that might be a sign, if they are taking anti-depressants that might be a sign, if they suddenly start behaving erratically, etc.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pztPc--bJ3A

    If the location bans firearms that is a great magnet to those who would do these shootings.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    skid--I suspect the denial is more a matter of folks not wanting to be judgmental in a way that hurts someone (as opposed to being judgmental about a woman's pageant-worthiness, a positive judgment). They would rather shake their heads and be silent than say what they are thinking, bringing possible consequences down on the poor, poor man--and possibly being judged themselves as being judgmental, anti-rights, holier-than-thou, or some such other nonsense.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Or....citizens are worried that if they intervene and the citizen they perceived as being crazy as a bat is in fact found to not be crazy as a bat after all will then turn around and sue them for all sorts of crazy as a bat stuff.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    The police think that kids whose parents own guns are likely to sneak around at night and kill everyone....except for the kids of cops, of course.

  7. #7
    Regular Member Logan 5's Avatar
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    I was thinking there isn't a "for sure" method to tell who is or isn't a school shooter.
    Interesting.
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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logan 5 View Post
    I was thinking there isn't a "for sure" method to tell who is or isn't a school shooter.
    Interesting.
    Best "for sure" way to ID them? Wait till they shoot up a school, then ID them.

    In the mean time? Treat everybody with respect, and have a plan to kill them.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    The police think that kids whose parents own guns are likely to sneak around at night and kill everyone....except for the kids of cops, of course.
    No, the children of police start killing at around 3 years of age.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

  10. #10
    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Treat everybody with respect, and have a plan to kill them.

    stay safe.
    Sounds like sage advice.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

  11. #11
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    "I know of NO possible way for anyone to really know "for sure" (if even remotely) IF someone is going to be a "school shooter", similar to what happened at VA Tech a few years back." -- Logan 5


    ...if you note someone listening to Foster the People's "Pumped Up Kicks" a lot, I'd be concerned that you MIGHT have found one in the making. ;-)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTeFDHcCRR8

    Bullies beware...
    Last edited by cloudcroft; 12-02-2012 at 08:02 PM.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Logan 5's Avatar
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    Just wasn't sure if I missed something.

    I have been wondering about this after I tried enrolling in a community college a few years back. They asked for a lot of personal info and used the excuse "to make sure" I'm not "another school shooter" to justify it. I never enrolled, but damn, a number of schools in Colorado were doing that. I'm like "Dude, you won't know who's a school shooter until it happens", which so far has proven correct.
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    Registering gun owners to prevent crime, is like registering Jews to prevent a HOLOCAUST.

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    Logan 5

    You are certainly correct...I was just (somewhat facetiously) suggesting an "indicator" of sorts. Mark Foster said of the song, "...it's more about the headspace of a kid and where the story could possibly end in a shooting...about his psychosis and the psychology behind what’s making him tick." I'd expect those Community College interviewers questioning you would find it "disturbing" (!) if you said 'Pumped Up Kicks' was one of your favorite songs, right? ;-)

    And IIRC, the Columbine shooters had some favorite music that "inspired" them.

    Regardless, "stuff" can happen at ANY time and just about ANYONE could end up being a shooter. And the only solution is to have ANOTHER shooter (cop or armed citizen/student) there on-site to deal with it AS it's happening.

    IMO, there's no other way.
    Last edited by cloudcroft; 12-03-2012 at 10:31 AM.

  14. #14
    Regular Member Logan 5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cloudcroft View Post
    Logan 5

    You are certainly correct...I was just (somewhat facetiously) suggesting an "indicator" of sorts. Mark Foster said of the song, "...it's more about the headspace of a kid and where the story could possibly end in a shooting...about his psychosis and the psychology behind what’s making him tick." I'd expect those Community College interviewers questioning you would find it "disturbing" (!) if you said 'Pumped Up Kicks' was one of your favorite songs, right? ;-)

    And IIRC, the Columbine shooters had some favorite music that "inspired" them.

    Regardless, "stuff" can happen at ANY time and just about ANYONE could end up being a shooter. And the only solution is to have ANOTHER shooter (cop or armed citizen/student) there on-site to deal with it AS it's happening.

    IMO, there's no other way.
    Music is a funny creature. The music I listen to is diverse. Anything from Bach to AC/DC to Waylon Jennings to Insane Clown Posse and now "Pumped Up Kicks".

    The music is pretty good, the voices are really good. Just a choice of lyrics that bugs me some.
    At the same time that I mention ICP's "To Catch a Predator", "Hall of Horrors" and "Let's Go All The Way" being some of my favorites. Oh, and Weird Al Yankovic's "Trigger Happy" is pretty good, too.


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    Registering gun owners to prevent crime, is like registering Jews to prevent a HOLOCAUST.

    I am not a lawyer in real life, or in play life. So anything I say is for debate and discussion only.

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    Re: Question for the kids- school shooters

    Quote Originally Posted by Logan 5 View Post
    Music is a funny creature.
    I still like Marilyn Manson. Haven't killed anyone yet.

    I also still have an original cassette with Ice T's Cop Killer.

    I have no plans to attempt suicide by cop.



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    Neither have I (well, not since the "war")...but anti-gun liberals wouldn't believe us, would they, and not admit Logan 5 to attend college or hire pro-gun people (who they equate with "conservative" except that's not at all true) as employees if they knew these "quaint" things about us, would they.

    It's kind of like sitting next to a Muslim on a plane and he starts praying out loud...that may be all it is OR, something's about to happen. Who knows. ;-)

    Just sayin' most people, being clueless, over-react to things like this and they're best kept to one's self when speaking to someone in College/University Admissions or some company's Human Resources. And in my particular case -- since I'm retired and school/work is OVER for me -- the LESS I say to my VA doctor about ANYTHING, the better it probably is.

    It's only being prudent: You have to proceed with caution as you enter their Spin Zone. Like the Bermuda Triangle, you never know where you'll end up. ;-)
    Last edited by cloudcroft; 12-03-2012 at 05:29 PM.

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    Re: Question for the kids- school shooters

    Quote Originally Posted by cloudcroft View Post
    And in my particular case -- since I'm retired and school/work is OVER for me -- the LESS I say to my VA doctor about ANYTHING, the better it probably is.

    It's only being prudent: You have to proceed with caution as you enter their Spin Zone. Like the Bermuda Triangle, you never know where you'll end up. ;-)
    Withholding from your doc is ill advised.

    Especially in advanced age...



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    Last edited by Anonymouse; 12-03-2012 at 06:12 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man
    if they are taking anti-depressants that might be a sign
    What about the guy who's taking wellbutrin for smoking cessation, & is antsy & irritable because he's detoxing from nicotine?

    Besides, I'd be more worried about an unmedicated schizophrenic (someone whose reality doesn't match with what the rest of us think of as reality), esp. the paranoid variety, than I would about a depressive, esp. the medicated variety.

    Quote Originally Posted by Logan 5
    I tried enrolling in a community college a few years back. They asked for a lot of personal info and used the excuse "to make sure" I'm not "another school shooter" to justify it.
    That's where I'd start asking "what does this have to do with school?", or writing N/A on the form.
    Last edited by MKEgal; 12-03-2012 at 07:03 PM.
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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    I have never been afraid to discuss gun rights in school, and I've never been questioned or assumed to be a potential school shooter, least not that I know of.

    I don't really care much for the whole "trying to predict" who may be a school shooter. even if you limit your search. it's impossible to determine who may in fact be a school shooter.

    compare these photos










    Which is a school shooter?
    take your guess... And I'll tell you who's who...


    See profiling is next to useless because you can't do anything until someone has actually committed a crime

    The reaction is more important, my high school's procedure was to call a "lockdown" and you stay in your class room.... haha! not waiting like a sheep to slaughter, my curious nature taught me all about hidden passages in the school, in a mass shooting scenario I'm disappearing into the wood-work... literally.

    unfortunately my college campus is all newer buildings, newer buildings have fewer utility passages and hidden hallways and rooms... so unfortunatley my options are limited as to hiding or escape. stupid eco-friendly energy effecient central heating.... taking away all our steam tunnels and utility shafts... once I turn 21 I'll be out of college and carrying though...
    Last edited by EMNofSeattle; 12-03-2012 at 07:50 PM.
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    Regular Member MikeTheGreek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cloudcroft View Post
    "I know of NO possible way for anyone to really know "for sure" (if even remotely) IF someone is going to be a "school shooter", similar to what happened at VA Tech a few years back." -- Logan 5


    ...if you note someone listening to Foster the People's "Pumped Up Kicks" a lot, I'd be concerned that you MIGHT have found one in the making. ;-)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTeFDHcCRR8

    Bullies beware...
    I actually enjoy that song, it's nice to jam out to while driving. Although...it took me a few listens to realize it's about a kid going crazy and shooting people at school with his dads revolver.

    That's...kinda...not a very good theme for a song. And they make it sound like school shootings are fun. I don't really understand why they wrote it...but hey..it was on the charts for a pretty long time.

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    Re: Question for the kids- school shooters

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeTheGreek View Post
    I actually enjoy that song, it's nice to jam out to while driving. Although...it took me a few listens to realize it's about a kid going crazy and shooting people at school with his dads revolver.

    That's...kinda...not a very good theme for a song. And they make it sound like school shootings are fun. I don't really understand why they wrote it...but hey..it was on the charts for a pretty long time.
    The artist was just singing about what's going on with kids.

    Kinda like Pearl Jam's Jeremy or Soul Asylums Runaway Train.

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    Last edited by Anonymouse; 12-03-2012 at 08:13 PM.

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    Anonymouse,

    If I had a real doctor, I'd agree with you...

  23. #23
    Regular Member Logan 5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeTheGreek View Post
    I actually enjoy that song, it's nice to jam out to while driving. Although...it took me a few listens to realize it's about a kid going crazy and shooting people at school with his dads revolver.

    That's...kinda...not a very good theme for a song. And they make it sound like school shootings are fun. I don't really understand why they wrote it...but hey..it was on the charts for a pretty long time.
    Actually, now that I have been listening to that group, “Foster The People”, I really like their music. Not just the first song of theirs that was mentioned, but the rest (hit YouTube and check out “Foster the People”. The videos are really cool!)


    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    That's where I'd start asking "what does this have to do with school?", or writing N/A on the form.
    Did that. No luck. And of course it’s a long story.


    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    I don't really care much for the whole "trying to predict" who may be a school shooter. even if you limit your search. it's impossible to determine who may in fact be a school shooter.

    compare these photos


    Which is a school shooter?
    take your guess... And I'll tell you who's who...
    The first one, of course. Clean cut, trying to fit in to the mold society made for him. The next one, I don’t know if he’s sane, but I think he’s got a better grasp on life than the first kid. Good attitude, being who he wants to be and not giving a rats butt who approves.
    Last edited by Logan 5; 12-04-2012 at 05:05 AM.
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  24. #24
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    <snip>

    Where have I seen that Click image for larger version. 

Name:	circle-a-md.png 
Views:	146 
Size:	9.8 KB 
ID:	9634before?

    He is obviously a gun nut who frequents Open Carry.org.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    "Although...it took me a few listens to realize it's about a kid going crazy and shooting people at school with his dads revolver." -- Mike


    ...that's why I posted the link to the "lyrics" version of the song.

    If you want some fun with the song at a drive-in -- while you're out jammin' -- try this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZq1MBtzgKM


    ...but we're getting somewhat OT, aren't we.
    Last edited by cloudcroft; 12-04-2012 at 01:59 PM.

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