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Thread: And you thought you were safe (and free)...

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    Regular Member Freedom First's Avatar
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    And you thought you were safe (and free)...

    Well, you aren't.

    So, strap on your tin-foil hat and then watch as this guy describes the Narus machine that NSA is using to collect and store all, and that means all, of the traffic on the internet. This means every email, every post, every skype call, every purchase, every web search and every web page you have and will visit will be available for .gov to reference and use against you or your family.

    I have been following the story of Narus for a couple of years. This is not a new program, it's been in development for years and now is up and running on your internet. Enjoy!

    Ads are a problem... --->
    Here's a link to watch full screen video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuET0kpHoyM



    Oddly they have scrubbed their main website, Narus.com of any of the links that existed just a few days back. The NarusInsight product is the basis of the NSA's stazi machine. They used to brag on their site about what their product could do. Now, nothing. Hmm.

    "Some features of NarusInsight include:
    *Scalability to support surveillance of large, complex IP networks (such as the Internet)
    High-speed Packet processing performance, which enables it to sift through the vast quantities of information that travel over the Internet.
    *Normalization, Correlation, Aggregation and Analysis provide a model of user, element, protocol, application and network behaviors, in real-time. That is it can track individual users, monitor which applications they are using (e.g. web browsers, instant messaging applications, email) and what they are doing with those applications (e.g. which web sites they have visited, what they have written in their emails/IM conversations), and see how users' activities are connected to each other (e.g. compiling lists of people who visit a certain type of web site or use certain words or phrases in their emails).
    *High reliability from data collection to data processing and analysis.
    *NarusInsight's functionality can be configured to feed a particular activity or IP service such as security, lawful intercept or even Skype detection and blocking.
    *Compliance with CALEA and ETSI.
    *Certified by Telecommunication Engineering Center (TEC) in India for lawful intercept and monitoring systems for ISPs.
    The intercepted data flows into NarusInsight Intercept Suite. This data is stored and analyzed for surveillance and forensic analysis purposes.

    *Other capabilities include playback of streaming media (i.e. VoIP), rendering of web pages, examination of e-mail and the ability to analyze the payload/attachments of e-mail or file transfer protocols. Narus partner products, such as Pen-Link, offer the ability to quickly analyze information collected by the Directed Analysis or Lawful Intercept modules.

    A single NarusInsight machine can monitor traffic equal to the maximum capacity (10 Gbit/s) of around 39,000 DSL lines or 195,000 telephone modems. But, in practical terms, since individual internet connections are not continually filled to capacity, the 10 Gbit/s capacity of one NarusInsight installation enables it to monitor the combined traffic of several million broadband users."
    Wikipedia

    "Anything that comes through (an internet protocol network), we can record," says Steve Bannerman, marketing vice president of Narus, a Mountain View, California, company. "We can reconstruct all of their e-mails along with attachments, see what web pages they clicked on, we can reconstruct their (voice over internet protocol) calls."

    Here's a lawsuit started back in 2006 which "in which the EFF alleges that AT&T permitted and assisted the National Security Agency (NSA) in unlawfully monitoring the communications of the United States, including AT&T customers, businesses and third parties whose communications were routed through AT&T's network, as well as Voice over IP telephone calls routed via the Internet."

    Well, I'm sure that makes you all feel so much safer. And remember to vote, it's important since they care so much what you think...
    Last edited by Freedom First; 12-03-2012 at 11:26 AM.
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    Regular Member conandan's Avatar
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    Not surprised at all. Big brother has always been watching and getting as much info as they can. And the more the technology develops the easier it will be. Everything we do anymore is transmitted over the web and thru someone's servers. Nothing is private anymore.

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    Regular Member Keylock's Avatar
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    As long as the grid exists. Funny how such wonderful thing, electricity, can be used for both good and evil. Like guns. Guess it all depends on what is in a man's heart.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by conandan View Post
    Not surprised at all. Big brother has always been watching and getting as much info as they can. And the more the technology develops the easier it will be. Everything we do anymore is transmitted over the web and thru someone's servers. Nothing is private anymore.
    Speak for yourself.....
    I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.

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    All? Do you realize how much data is transmitted over the internet in one day? Hundreds of trillions of terabytes. (TB being 1,000 gigabytes) There's not enough hard drives to store all that data in.

    My brother is the IT director for Ford Motor Company. He estimates just for them, company wide here in the US, they exchange almost a 900 million terabytes of data a day. That is a TON of data.

    I just don't see it as being possible. This sounds like something that a large company would use to track their information on their servers for either quality or security reasons. I know all of my emails that I send using my department address, are archived, even if I delete them. It's for security reasons, and also for FOIA reasons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beantownfan321 View Post
    All? Do you realize how much data is transmitted over the internet in one day? Hundreds of trillions of terabytes. (TB being 1,000 gigabytes) There's not enough hard drives to store all that data in.

    My brother is the IT director for Ford Motor Company. He estimates just for them, company wide here in the US, they exchange almost a 900 million terabytes of data a day. That is a TON of data.

    I just don't see it as being possible. This sounds like something that a large company would use to track their information on their servers for either quality or security reasons. I know all of my emails that I send using my department address, are archived, even if I delete them. It's for security reasons, and also for FOIA reasons.
    We are talking about the United States Government here -- anything is possible! We haven't accumulated nearly $17,000,000,000,000.00 in debt on nothing.
    Last edited by KYGlockster; 12-05-2012 at 11:45 PM.
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    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

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    Regular Member PFC HALE's Avatar
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    And you thought you were safe (and free)...

    regardless of how much data there is, real time sniffing of all data is possible and once target is found a trace recording is set up for a duration. storage of all data possibly not but monitoring is possible.
    HOPE FOR THE BEST, EXPECT THE WORST, PREPARE FOR WAR

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    Regular Member Freedom First's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beantownfan321 View Post
    All? Do you realize how much data is transmitted over the internet in one day? Hundreds of trillions of terabytes. (TB being 1,000 gigabytes) There's not enough hard drives to store all that data in.

    My brother is the IT director for Ford Motor Company. He estimates just for them, company wide here in the US, they exchange almost a 900 million terabytes of data a day. That is a TON of data.

    I just don't see it as being possible. This sounds like something that a large company would use to track their information on their servers for either quality or security reasons. I know all of my emails that I send using my department address, are archived, even if I delete them. It's for security reasons, and also for FOIA reasons.
    Quote Originally Posted by PFC HALE View Post
    regardless of how much data there is, real time sniffing of all data is possible and once target is found a trace recording is set up for a duration. storage of all data possibly not but monitoring is possible.
    One can only go by what has been released as to the machine's abilities. They say it will store ALL the data that passes through the splice it is connected to. That's in their now missing ads that once lived on their site. Narus InSight was designed for corporate networks such as Microsoft or IBM. That's one installation... They have been installing a different version at the fiber hubs specifically designed for this application. As a telecom tech who has spend a fair amount of time in server rooms, I don't personally have your difficulty in imagining the .gov would shoot for the moon with their unrestrained budgets and have a machine designed that can do this.

    Yes, they would have to store this data somewhere. Bluffdale anyone?

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    Most of you guys aren't "young" so you remember when a 1Gb drive was HUGE. Now you can carry a 3Tb drive in your pocket. Why would it be hard to imagine that .gov would have access to black technology we haven't seen yet? Just look at the past 20 years of advancement.

    I just saw General Charles Duke speak about his trip to the moon on Apollo 16. He held up his iphone and showed that it had vastly more processing power and memory than they had to put a man on the moon. In his pocket. What could be stored in 1.5 Million square feet with tomorrow tech? I would say the traffic on the internet is not beyond the reach of that technology.
    Last edited by Freedom First; 12-06-2012 at 10:52 AM.
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    Regular Member Gil223's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom First View Post
    One can only go by what has been released as to the machine's abilities. They say it will store ALL the data that passes through the splice it is connected to. That's in their now missing ads that once lived on their site. Narus InSight was designed for corporate networks such as Microsoft or IBM. That's one installation... They have been installing a different version at the fiber hubs specifically designed for this application. As a telecom tech who has spend a fair amount of time in server rooms, I don't personally have your difficulty in imagining the .gov would shoot for the moon with their unrestrained budgets and have a machine designed that can do this.

    Yes, they would have to store this data somewhere. Bluffdale anyone?
    Bluffdale UT would be quite capable of storing all the data collected for "X-amount of time". Even with compressed backups, at some point in time the storage space "existing" (projected) today will become filled (nature abhors a vacuum). However, by that time technology will have continued to advance, and expansion of storage capability should be fairly simple - 100-times today's data may be able to be stored in 1/10th as much space.


    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom First View Post
    Most of you guys aren't "young" so you remember when a 1Gb drive was HUGE. Now you can carry a 3Tb drive in your pocket. Why would it be hard to imagine that .gov would have access to black technology we haven't seen yet? Just look at the past 20 years of advancement.
    I remember when a 10MB hard drive was huge, and I thought "I'll never fill that up!" I hadn't considered drive failure though... and the 40MB replacement was unbelievably large - the Behemoth of hard drives! (Nonetheless, I managed to fill that one in about 18 months.)


    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom First View Post
    What could be stored in 1.5 Million square feet with tomorrow tech? I would say the traffic on the internet is not beyond the reach of that technology.
    Agreed. I would take it one step further though, and speculate that it could easily store all the data generated by every computer on Earth - including those relative few that are not connected to the Internet.

    The NARUS Insight projected storage capability of one Yottabyte (1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000bytes - or 10008) at Camp Williams (Bluffdale) UTC is simply incomprehensible. It would have enough capacity to store every byte of data, on every hard drive in the world today, several hundred times over. Between Insight, Echelon, and the proposed use of decommissioned military drones by law enforcement to observe our every move, our 4A rights are being consumed like PacMan consumed pac-dots and power pellets! Which raises the question - "Is there nobody in Congress willing to take a very loud and clear stand against government intrusion in our personal daily lives?" Pax...
    Last edited by Gil223; 12-06-2012 at 12:34 PM. Reason: typo
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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Skynet......or, how about SETI. Distributed computing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Search_...l_intelligence

    Who says all the data has to be stored and analyzed in one location?

    Just like a pack of dogs, sniff a little here and sniff a little there. It don't take long for the "word" to get to the entire pack that a sniff found something.
    I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.

    Politicians are the tyrants 3000 miles away; thug cops are 3000 tyrants 1 mile away. (Adapted from Benjamin Martin, fictional character extraordinaire)

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    Regular Member PFC HALE's Avatar
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    And you thought you were safe (and free)...

    i dont think they would be using archaic spun up hard drives, just racks and racks of solid state memory boards.

    compare the space of say a 64gig SATA hard drive compared to a 64gig solid state drive. you can have easily 4x the solid state storage compared to the spun up platter drive.
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    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Skynet......or, how about SETI. Distributed computing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Search_...l_intelligence

    Who says all the data has to be stored and analyzed in one location?

    Just like a pack of dogs, sniff a little here and sniff a little there. It don't take long for the "word" to get to the entire pack that a sniff found something.
    And where does the 4th play into this?
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    Re: And you thought you were safe (and free)...

    Isn't internet activity public anyways?

    Even if you believe it shouldn't be you should be acting as if it is. Because well, it is.

    On a side note, should the new system become self aware would it still count as a government entity?

    Tap'n while driving...

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    Regular Member Gil223's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouse View Post
    Isn't internet activity public anyways?

    Even if you believe it shouldn't be you should be acting as if it is. Because well, it is.
    No. Last I heard the federal wiretap statute, originally passed in 1968 and sometimes called "Title III" or the Wiretap Act, requires the law enforcement agencies to get a wiretap order — often called a "super-warrant" because it is even harder to get than a regular search warrant — before they monitor or record your communications.As far as I know, that hasn't changed... yet. Pax...
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    Regular Member PFC HALE's Avatar
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    And you thought you were safe (and free)...

    Quote Originally Posted by Gil223 View Post
    No. Last I heard the federal wiretap statute, originally passed in 1968 and sometimes called "Title III" or the Wiretap Act, requires the law enforcement agencies to get a wiretap order — often called a "super-warrant" because it is even harder to get than a regular search warrant — before they monitor or record your communications.As far as I know, that hasn't changed... yet. Pax...
    feds have a little box here in our switch that can piggyback any phone/text/data stream via SS7 link on our network only, all they need is a phone # IMEI or IMSI and yer screwed. hell i can plug into a jack and listen to your mobile phone call if i wanted and you never will know, we actually listen for noise and such, not "actual content" when turning up new trunking.
    Last edited by PFC HALE; 12-07-2012 at 01:49 AM.
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    Re: And you thought you were safe (and free)...

    Quote Originally Posted by Gil223 View Post
    No. Last I heard the federal wiretap statute, originally passed in 1968 and sometimes called "Title III" or the Wiretap Act, requires the law enforcement agencies to get a wiretap order — often called a "super-warrant" because it is even harder to get than a regular search warrant — before they monitor or record your communications.As far as I know, that hasn't changed... yet. Pax...
    Even under FISA? I think that's the acronym...

    Tap'n while driving...

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by self preservation View Post
    And where does the 4th play into this?
    Have you ever read, and fully understood the whats-whens-whoes is-whoes nots "disclaimer" box when loading 'X' onto your computer. Or, do you do as I and the vast vast majority of consumers/users and just checked the little "I Agree To the Terms and Conditions" box to get to the good stuff, hoping that you ain't put yourself on a legal hook? Of course, would could have your atturney read it for you and then provide a recommendation.

    I avoid many of those legal hooks by not loading much of what is out there to begin with.

    Do not misunderstand, I agree with your premise. However, we must give up a little of our 4A in this Interwebs age to be able to post on OCDO when we desire to do so.
    I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.

    Politicians are the tyrants 3000 miles away; thug cops are 3000 tyrants 1 mile away. (Adapted from Benjamin Martin, fictional character extraordinaire)

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    Regular Member Freedom First's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gil223 View Post
    "Is there nobody in Congress willing to take a very loud and clear stand against government intrusion in our personal daily lives?" Pax...
    No.
    Freedom can never be lost, only given away by ignorance, by choice, or at the point of a gun. Here in America we can still choose.

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    i have figured this was true from day one. I have always told people never put any thing on a computer that you don't want some one to read.
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    Regular Member Freedom First's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    i have figured this was true from day one. I have always told people never put any thing on a computer that you don't want some one to read.
    Unfortunately, the dialogue here in America has moved from the coffee shop to the forum and chat room. So, do we surrender the correct side of the issue from fear of someday being arrested for our "free speech" or do we say what we think, devil take 'em? I'm sure there were many in Weimar Germany who bit their tongues and kept clam so as to escape the notice of the onrushing security state. Little good it did them. And their neighbors. And millions of Jews, Gypsies, gays, Christians, etc..

    I've chosen the push aside my fear and speak the truth. I say or write exactly what's on my mind so people can think and perhaps be encouraged to push back against those who would rule over a Free People.
    Freedom can never be lost, only given away by ignorance, by choice, or at the point of a gun. Here in America we can still choose.

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    Regular Member Gil223's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouse View Post
    Even under FISA? I think that's the acronym...

    Tap'n while driving...
    I had forgotten about Gee Dubbya's knee-jerk reaction to 9-11. Right now, the NSA is the only agency authorized to conduct "warrantless wiretaps". However, one agency is one too many violating our 4th Amendment rights. (FISA generally requires the government to seek warrants before monitoring Americans’ communications. In 2001, however, President Bush authorized the NSA to launch a warrantless wiretapping program, and in 2008 Congress ratified and expanded that program.) With the Commies still running the country, who knows what they will do next. Pax...

    P.S. As of 29 October 2012
    WASHINGTON — The Supreme Court seemed skeptical Monday of a government request to invalidate a lawsuit challenging the expansion of a surveillance law used to monitor conversations of foreign spies and terrorist suspects.
    There's still hope.
    Last edited by Gil223; 12-07-2012 at 01:09 PM. Reason: Add P.S.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gil223 View Post
    I had forgotten about Gee Dubbya's knee-jerk reaction to 9-11. Right now, the NSA is the only agency authorized to conduct "warrantless wiretaps". However, one agency is one too many violating our 4th Amendment rights. (FISA generally requires the government to seek warrants before monitoring Americans’ communications. In 2001, however, President Bush authorized the NSA to launch a warrantless wiretapping program, and in 2008 Congress ratified and expanded that program.) With the Commies still running the country, who knows what they will do next. Pax...

    P.S. As of 29 October 2012 There's still hope.
    One agency is aboslutely one too many!

    People here are acting under the premise that everything on the Internet is viewable by the public and this fact makes it okay for the government to do the same. How can you come to this conclusion? The government does not have the right to keep documentation of our chats, posts, blogs, or anything else we do on the Internet, regardless of whether it is viewable to all or not. Sure, they can view this information, but they do not have the authority to compile all of it into viewable files for later use.

    We must remember that the government is bound by the Constitution, and they cannot do things to people that private citizens can because that document forbides them from doing so. Spying on our Internet activity and documenting that same activity is a violation of our right to be free from government intrusion into our lives. There is a difference in the general public and a government agency doing these activities.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

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    Re: And you thought you were safe (and free)...

    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    One agency is aboslutely one too many!

    People here are acting under the premise that everything on the Internet is viewable by the public and this fact makes it okay for the government to do the same. How can you come to this conclusion?
    The same reason cops can look in your car window. Its plainly visible.

    I'm not saying it is right.

    I'm saying that just like you should tint your windows and put your stuff in your trunk that you should do the same with your internet communications.

    Sure my posts here are public but my sensitive email and Skype chats and more risque network shenanigans are hella encrypted and good look to the NSA trying to crack it. Not in this life time. Hell even my hard drives are under multiple levels of encryption.

    It's called being prudent. Same reason every sensitive document gets cross shredded and burned.

    If you aren't working under the assumption that someone is sniffing your network packets, digging in your trash or otherwise snooping on you then you are being foolish...

    Whether it's the government, a Chinese teenager, a foreign government or your jilted girlfriend.

    Do you not wear condoms because its not right for people to give you STD's???



    Tap'n while driving...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouse View Post
    The same reason cops can look in your car window. Its plainly visible.

    I'm not saying it is right.

    I'm saying that just like you should tint your windows and put your stuff in your trunk that you should do the same with your internet communications.

    Sure my posts here are public but my sensitive email and Skype chats and more risque network shenanigans are hella encrypted and good look to the NSA trying to crack it. Not in this life time. Hell even my hard drives are under multiple levels of encryption.

    It's called being prudent. Same reason every sensitive document gets cross shredded and burned.

    If you aren't working under the assumption that someone is sniffing your network packets, digging in your trash or otherwise snooping on you then you are being foolish...

    Whether it's the government, a Chinese teenager, a foreign government or your jilted girlfriend.

    Do you not wear condoms because its not right for people to give you STD's???



    Tap'n while driving...
    Yes, you can be ARRESTED if an LEO witnesses something ILLEGAL in PLAIN-VIEW. This is entirely different! This is our daily business on the Internet, of which the government is keeping record of EVERYTHING WE DO, NOT JUST WHAT WE DO THAT IS ILLEGAL. Even if we were doing something ILLEGAL on-line, they still would need a warrant to seize our computer to attain information needed to prove wrong-doing. So, in this case that we are discussing there are no warrants issued to compile all of this information AGAINST us. There is absolutely NO relevance between the PLAIN-VIEW DOCTRINE and keeping records of everything that we have done on the Internet. The government can only do such nonsense if WE THE PEOPLE allow them to do so, which means legislation would have to be passed and be deemed constitutional. This activity is NOT constitutional. If they witnessed illegal activity on the Internet then they could copy that activity to use against us legally; but SPYING on the American people and keeping databases of our LEGAL activity on the Internet is repugnant to what a FREE society is all about!
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

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    Re: And you thought you were safe (and free)...

    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    Yes, you can be ARRESTED if an LEO witnesses something ILLEGAL in PLAIN-VIEW. This is entirely different! This is our daily business on the Internet, of which the government is keeping record of EVERYTHING WE DO, NOT JUST WHAT WE DO THAT IS ILLEGAL. Even if we were doing something ILLEGAL on-line, they still would need a warrant to seize our computer to attain information needed to prove wrong-doing. So, in this case that we are discussing there are no warrants issued to compile all of this information AGAINST us. There is absolutely NO relevance between the PLAIN-VIEW DOCTRINE and keeping records of everything that we have done on the Internet. The government can only do such nonsense if WE THE PEOPLE allow them to do so, which means legislation would have to be passed and be deemed constitutional. This activity is NOT constitutional. If they witnessed illegal activity on the Internet then they could copy that activity to use against us legally; but SPYING on the American people and keeping databases of our LEGAL activity on the Internet is repugnant to what a FREE society is all about!
    So you are saying you refuse to be prudent because it shouldn't happen???

    Of course it shouldn't happen. But it will, so...



    Tap'n while driving...

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