• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

HYPOTHETICAL SB-59 dies, new bill offered

Do you support the bill described below

  • Yes

    Votes: 5 27.8%
  • No

    Votes: 13 72.2%

  • Total voters
    18

1245A Defender

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 7, 2009
Messages
4,365
Location
north mason county, Washington, USA
Wowwie!!!

hypothetical...

SB-59 is dead. New bill offered, what say you.

NO CPL needed to OC in bars/restaurants/Meijer(any liquor licensed place), theaters, Churches/synagogues and NO CPL needed to carry in a vehicle..

BUT!!!

OC is illegal in schools, daycares, hospitals and stadiums.

DO YOU SUPPORT THIS BILL??

I SEE WHAT YOU DID THERE^^^^^^^^

How about,,, get rid of 28.425o,,, and
all the off limit places on the back of the permit.
 

TheQ

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2010
Messages
3,379
Location
Lansing, Michigan
I SEE WHAT YOU DID THERE^^^^^^^^

How about,,, get rid of 28.425o,,, and
all the off limit places on the back of the permit.

Green tried that with SB 58. Governor wouldn't go near the bill so therefore the legislative leadership wouldn't.
 
Last edited:

1245A Defender

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 7, 2009
Messages
4,365
Location
north mason county, Washington, USA
Well,,,

I SEE WHAT YOU DID THERE^^^^^^^^

How about,,, get rid of 28.425o,,, and
all the off limit places on the back of the permit.

Green tried that with SB 58. Governor wouldn't go near the bill so therefore the legislative leadership wouldn't.

After thinking about my words in this post for awhile, I was going to make a revision...

If the words of 425o were changed some,,, to only require, concealed carry in these places,,,
the governer would be happy, the grey areas would go away, the law would be clear.

You could trade the grey areas of OC with a cpl, for real CC with a CPL only...
More training is an infringment.
There is no history of lawfull carry in michigan that points to any need for more training...
 

scot623

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 2, 2009
Messages
1,421
Location
Eastpointe, Michigan, USA
After thinking about my words in this post for awhile, I was going to make a revision...

If the words of 425o were changed some,,, to only require, concealed carry in these places,,,
the governer would be happy, the grey areas would go away, the law would be clear.

You could trade the grey areas of OC with a cpl, for real CC with a CPL only...
More training is an infringment.
There is no history of lawfull carry in michigan that points to any need for more training...

So for the purposes of this thread, you're a no vote then?
 
B

Bikenut

Guest
This questsion had nothing to do with creatingin carve outs and has everything to do with gauging our willingness to compromise.
Seems to me that when it comes to gun owners compromising the government doesn't. All that ever happens is gun owners get some kind of convenience or extra privilege in exchange for the government either maintaining, or increasing, it's control over the ability to bear arms.
 

1245A Defender

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 7, 2009
Messages
4,365
Location
north mason county, Washington, USA
uhhuh,,

So for the purposes of this thread, you're a no vote then?

that is right,,, I dont support your bill,,, and I just added my vote to the poll...

Funny thing,,, though,, I think,,, Neither your bill nor SB59 really do michigan gun carry folks any more good than bad...

Usually making a new law just muddies the waters more...
What is really needed is to remove, old out of date, useless restrictions.
 

Yance

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2011
Messages
568
Location
Battle Creek, MI
See, this is the problem, a lot of you CPL holders are looking at this bill as "how does this effect me" from the posts I'm reading. Also you have goals in mind like "get rid of PFZ completely"...we can barely get a bill to be heard that requires EXTRA TRAINING to carry in a PFZ, are you really that convinced they will just float a bill to eliminate PFZ's right through to be signed off by the governor? You're kidding yourselves.

Now...

You have about 2 MILLION...people (with no CPL) in this state who would be able to lawfully OC in a vehicle as well as more locations currently restricted (unless you have a CPL), vs 340,000 CPL holders.

If we allow those about 2 Million people (with no CPL) to carry in establishments licensed by the Liquor Act that then allows them to carry into restaurants, like steak houses and olive garden, while they are with their families, allowing them to continue to protect them while in public. Allowing them to carry in theaters and churches again allows those 2 MILLION people to continue to protect their families while watching a movie or sitting in church.

And I would say the MOST IMPORTANT part of the proposed bill in question would be UNLICENSED VEHICLE CARRY...and here's why:

Heres a story from YESTERDAY about a man who was the victim of a road rage accident. He tried to do the right thing by pulling over and waiting for police but when his attackers...yes ATTACKERS, there was more than one, started to beat him and stab him with their keys he was able to pull his firearm and defend himself.

Now, let me put that in perspective. If you have a CPL I am referencing YOU.

You and your family are driving in traffic and someone forces you off the road intentionally and you get stuck in a ditch because they thought you cut them off and they didnt appreciate it. They are determined to make you pay for it..physically. You have a CPL, you can have your firearm in your vehicle with you, the attackers approach your vehicle with a tire iron and a small bat. You pull out your firearm from inside your vehicle and they retreat, you are alive and well.


FOR ME and the about 2 MILLION PEOPLE who may be like me (no cpl) this is probably how it would turn out:

My girlfriend and I are driving, we get forced off the road by someone, get stuck in a ditch. Our attackers pull up behind us and jump out with a tire iron and a small bat..they approach the vehicle.

My firearm is in my trunk, unloaded, in a case because thats how Michigan law says I have to transport my firearm.

So, I tell my g/f to call the police and I try to get out of the ditch. The attacker smash my windshield, beat my car, and drag me, maybe us both, from the car.

My gun is still in my trunk, unloaded, in a case in accordance with current Michigan law.

They beat us, maybe to death, maybe not, then they drive off.

Then the cops arrive, then we wait for an ambulance.





See this could very much be a real scenario.

just a couple months ago there was a man sitting in his car in a parking lot who was approached by two teens, one of which had a weapon, they wanted to rob him. He pulled out his gun and killed one while the other fled, taking no harm himself.


there are probably a lot of similar stories I could find and link, but I think you might get my point.


For about 2 MILLION people who do not have CPLs who may have a gun in their car for protection, they are not afforded that.

But luckily for those 340,000 people who are PERMITTED and are afforded the chance to have a firearm they wont have to worry about being beaten, robbed, or harmed while in their vehicle. Too bad for many people like myself (no cpl) we are not afforded, or granted, the same rights you are.

But you would say that having a bill that allows about 2 MILLION people to protect themselves in their car is unacceptable if you cant have PFZs, to allow 2 MILLION people a chance to protect themselves and their families in MORE places that people visit in their every day lives..is unacceptable.

See what I'm getting at. You CPL holders are so out of touch with what its like for the people in this state that do not have a CPL that if something like this were to come up you would be completely against it..because it doesnt benefit you. Those of you that oppose this would rather a handful of people are still allowed to carry in a PFZ than allow about 2 MILLION people to be able to protect themselves.

At some point we (as 2A supporters) need to start thinking about how bills effect EVERYONE and not just YOUR cpl status.



/Rant
 

kubel

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2010
Messages
285
Location
, ,
Here's how I see it:

With SB-59, we sacrifice a licensed activity of open carry in certain areas in exchange for gaining licensed activity of concealed carry in certain areas.
There's no net gain or loss of liberty with SB-59, as I see it. There is loss of OC, but it's a licensed activity. There's a gain of CC, but of course that's licensed too.

With Hypothetical-59, we sacrifice some licensed activity of open carry in certain areas in exchange for gaining some unlicensed activity of open carry in certain areas.
There's a net gain of liberty there.
There's a net loss of a licensed activity.

I don't like compromise, and I don't like that I still can't OC when voting, but I wouldn't be as upset if MOC decided to back Hypothetical-59 compared to SB-59 because we would actually get some pro-OC liberty out of it. Liberty is very valuable to me.

But with SB-59, there's nothing there but loss when it comes to OC.
 
Top