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Thread: This Happened Today, Opinions Please

  1. #1
    Regular Member TheGunMan's Avatar
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    This Happened Today, Opinions Please

    I went into the Wenatchee PD to renew my CWL and Gun Dealers Lic. Filled the papers out and a woman called me into a little room to do the fingerprints. I took off my coat and she said for me to take my gun (Glock21)to my truck. I complyed. After she was done I asked to speak to a Supervisor and so a Capt came in and asked how he could help me. I told him what happened and he said he would get back to me. He called and left a message that said 9.41.300 says I cannot bring a gun into a seured area. The door was left open to the public enterance and so to me it was not a secured area. There were no signs. I suggested mabee they sould get a lockbox and he said that was for courtrooms. Was I wrong here or was he. I know cops never like to be wrong and think they are always right so I am asking for opinions. I know it made me mad. I have on many ocations been in that room for prints in the past and never was anything ever said when I was carrying open. I was fingerprinted for legal reasons and not becouse I was bad. Thanks for your thoughts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGunMan View Post
    I went into the Wenatchee PD to renew my CWL and Gun Dealers Lic. Filled the papers out and a woman called me into a little room to do the fingerprints. I took off my coat and she said for me to take my gun (Glock21)to my truck. I complyed. After she was done I asked to speak to a Supervisor and so a Capt came in and asked how he could help me. I told him what happened and he said he would get back to me. He called and left a message that said 9.41.300 says I cannot bring a gun into a seured area. The door was left open to the public enterance and so to me it was not a secured area. There were no signs. I suggested mabee they sould get a lockbox and he said that was for courtrooms. Was I wrong here or was he. I know cops never like to be wrong and think they are always right so I am asking for opinions. I know it made me mad. I have on many ocations been in that room for prints in the past and never was anything ever said when I was carrying open. I was fingerprinted for legal reasons and not becouse I was bad. Thanks for your thoughts.
    I would think that if it is an area open to the general public then carry is allowed. If it was an office area that one must be allowed into and you were only allowed there because you were in the process of renewing your dealer permit then carry is prohibited.

    (1) It is unlawful for any person to enter the following places when he or she knowingly possesses or knowingly has under his or her control a weapon: (a) The restricted access areas of a jail, or of a law enforcement facility, or any place used for the confinement of a person (i) arrested for, charged with, or convicted of an offense, (ii) held for extradition or as a material witness, or (iii) otherwise confined pursuant to an order of a court, except an order under chapter 13.32A or 13.34 RCW. Restricted access areas do not include common areas of egress or ingress open to the general public;
    Last edited by END_THE_FED; 12-03-2012 at 06:02 PM.
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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    I have a sneakin' suspicion that his definition of a 'secured area' differs from the accepted legal one.
    Was there a "Official Use Only", "Do Not Enter", "Restricted", 'No Public Access", "Employees Only", or other signage?
    A locked door? closed door? hanging beaded curtains?

  4. #4
    Regular Member TheGunMan's Avatar
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    Nope, None

    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    I have a sneakin' suspicion that his definition of a 'secured area' differs from the accepted legal one.
    Was there a "Official Use Only", "Do Not Enter", "Restricted", 'No Public Access", "Employees Only", or other signage?
    A locked door? closed door? hanging beaded curtains?
    No, There was no indication it was a secure or restricted room.

    It just makes me angry that cops are so arogant as to think they are alway right. They would rather be thatway than say the office girl was mistaken. She is not even a cop.
    I have spent years working with and uptalking this cop shop. I was wrong to think they were different.
    Yes, you may now say jokes about my ignorance.
    Last edited by TheGunMan; 12-03-2012 at 08:21 PM.

  5. #5
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGunMan View Post
    No, There was no indication it was a secure or restricted room.

    It just makes me angry that cops are so arogant as to think they are alway right. They would rather be thatway than say the office girl was mistaken. She is not even a cop.
    I have spent years working with and uptalking this cop shop. I was wrong to think they were different.
    Yes, you may now say jokes about my ignorance.
    There may be a few more variables to what happened.

    Maybe the guy who gave you the response is ignorant.

    Maybe it is a secure area and they didn't post it.


    I have been allowed in several secure areas in the county and city Buildings here while OC. Some officials are more informed or show better discretion.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member Vitaeus's Avatar
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    Since the definition of secured area is not written into 9.41.300 it will vary from locality to locality. If you went through a door that required being buzzed past, or a swipe or a code, in my opinion you are in a secure area if they choose to tell you to take it outside. I open carried to get my fingerprints done for a background check and no one said anything about the firearm except to ask the model and caliber, which was beyond a "security door", if I had been asked to put it in my car I would have complied.

  7. #7
    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    If this room is used for fingerprinting and not open to the public then it is in some sense a secured area, can anyone just go in and out as they please? I would think they would tell someone uninvited to leave.

    Was this at the jail? if so then there is another RCW that comes into play RCW 9.94.043 requiring them to secure your firearm, if not then likely they were correct.
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    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGunMan View Post
    I went into the Wenatchee PD to renew my CWL and Gun Dealers Lic. Filled the papers out and a woman called me into a little room to do the fingerprints. I took off my coat and she said for me to take my gun (Glock21)to my truck. I complyed. After she was done I asked to speak to a Supervisor and so a Capt came in and asked how he could help me. I told him what happened and he said he would get back to me. He called and left a message that said 9.41.300 says I cannot bring a gun into a seured area. The door was left open to the public enterance and so to me it was not a secured area. There were no signs. I suggested mabee they sould get a lockbox and he said that was for courtrooms. Was I wrong here or was he. I know cops never like to be wrong and think they are always right so I am asking for opinions. I know it made me mad. I have on many ocations been in that room for prints in the past and never was anything ever said when I was carrying open. I was fingerprinted for legal reasons and not becouse I was bad. Thanks for your thoughts.
    I don't have a problem with where the fingerprint machine is may be part of the "secure" area of the Sheriff's office. If it is behind a locked door, I would not consider it as being a public area.

    However, I do have a question.

    RCW 9.41.070(4) states (my bold) The application for an original license shall include two complete sets of fingerprints to be forwarded to the Washington state patrol.

    If you getting a renewal, why were you being fingerprinted? I guess they get as many copies as they want with that new machine they have anyway.
    Last edited by hermannr; 12-03-2012 at 11:24 PM.

  9. #9
    Regular Member Vitaeus's Avatar
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    he also was getting a WA state Firearms Dealer License

    http://www.dol.wa.gov/business/firea...dealerreq.html

    requires fingerprinting each year so licensed

  10. #10
    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    He said in the OP that he was also renewing a dealers license.
    Ah yes, missed that part..sorry. Then why the CPL? Dealers are exempt per 9.41.060(4)
    Last edited by hermannr; 12-03-2012 at 11:31 PM.

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    Campaign Veteran ak56's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hermannr View Post
    Ah yes, missed that part..sorry. Then why the CPL? Dealers are exempt per 9.41.060(4)

    (4) Any person engaged in the business of manufacturing, repairing, or dealing in firearms, or the agent or representative of the person, if possessing, using, or carrying a pistol in the usual or ordinary course of the business;
    Doesn't look like a complete exemption to me. If his carry is related to the business, yes. If he's carrying while running to the grocery store, probably not.
    No right is held more sacred, or is more carefully guarded, by the common law than the right of every individual to the possession and control of his own person, free from all restraint or interference of others, unless by clear and unquestionable authority of law. Union Pacific Rail Co. vs Botsford as quoted in Terry v Ohio.


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    Quote Originally Posted by hermannr View Post
    Ah yes, missed that part..sorry. Then why the CPL? Dealers are exempt per 9.41.060(4)
    Reciprocity?

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    Regular Member Lord Sega's Avatar
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    Personally, I would look at it like a restricted area when you were escorted back into the office area.

    Like at a doctors, even with an open window to the receptionist and an unlocked door I can walk right through, I still don't enter on my own to the nurses work station / medical records area. The waiting area is"public" and I'm escorted back to the examination room, but while I have the ability to wander throughout the other office areas, I don't.

    Even though you are not going into a "security" area, ie locked doors, bars, or detectors, the office area is restricted and not a general public area without permission & escort.

    Sorry, but I believe that they were in the right on this one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hermannr View Post
    Ah yes, missed that part..sorry. Then why the CPL? Dealers are exempt per 9.41.060(4)
    The exception states " Any person engaged in the business of manufacturing, repairing, or dealing in firearms, or the agent or representative of the person, if possessing, using, or carrying a pistol in the usual or ordinary course of the business;"

    That means carrying for work and doesn't cover you when you're not working. For example, when you are going out to dinner with your wife or going grocery shopping. A CPL will still be needed to carry concealed or loaded in a vehicle when conducting activities not directly related to work.

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    As a practical matter, a fingerprinting area in a Jail is where both the Public and Prisoners could come in contact with each other. My local Jail has a fingerprinting area that's secured by a locked door. The only "Public area of ingress/egress is clearly the area just inside the front door.

    Sounds to me like someone there was lazy and left a door open and didn't post any sign saying "entering secure area" (which I don't think is required by law).
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    Regular Member TheGunMan's Avatar
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    Thumbs up They contacted me.

    Just got an apology. Had me come down and get reprinted and all went well.

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Just a working hypothesis, but my view is that there are probably three tiers of access, and I'll try to list examples below.

    "Public Access" ... No restriction other than one must have a viable reason to be there.
    Restaurants, Malls, the ticketing area at your local airport.

    "Restricted Access" ... For Official Use Only
    Past the reception door at the doctors, past the door at your bankers, past the foyer at most office buildings, IOW the area where an entity's office work takes place. Behind the register or inside the meat department, floral department, etc., at your local store

    "Secure Access" ... Only identified personnel may enter
    Keycards, locks, identification required, No Lone Zones, Two-Man Rules, Contraband/prohibited item detection measures,
    Past the TSA area at any airport, prisons/jails/holding areas, evidence lockers/rooms etc.

    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 12-04-2012 at 02:10 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGunMan View Post
    Just got an apology. Had me come down and get reprinted and all went well.
    Did you carry?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGunMan View Post

    It just makes me angry that cops are so arogant as to think they are alway right. .
    YOU gave them your gun ... they did not force it from you. If I asked you to give me your gun would you complain after you did so?

    Nobody to blame but yourself.

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    Regular Member TheGunMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    YOU gave them your gun ... they did not force it from you. If I asked you to give me your gun would you complain after you did so?

    Nobody to blame but yourself.
    NO...... I did not give them my gun.

    I took my gun to my truck. I needed to get my Dealers Lic paperwork done. That was not the time to get pissy with them.
    After I got the paperwork done I said my complaint to them.

    I was trying to not be like one of these jerks that gets into a ******* contest with them. I do not believe that helps our cause.
    Yes, I complied and took my gun to my truck but I also stated my case appropriately. I think the outcome was good.
    Last edited by TheGunMan; 12-04-2012 at 10:04 PM.

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGunMan View Post
    NO...... I did not give them my gun.

    I took my gun to my truck. I needed to get my Dealers Lic paperwork done. That was not the time to get pissy with them.
    After I got the paperwork done I said my complaint to them.

    I was trying to not be like one of these jerks that gets into a ******* contest with them. I do not believe that helps our cause.
    Yes, I complied and took my gun to my truck but I also stated my case appropriately. I think the outcome was good.
    Good Job, Know when to pick your battles.
    Last edited by BigDave; 12-04-2012 at 11:14 PM.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
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    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

  22. #22
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGunMan View Post
    NO...... I did not give them my gun.

    I took my gun to my truck. I needed to get my Dealers Lic paperwork done. That was not the time to get pissy with them.
    After I got the paperwork done I said my complaint to them.

    I was trying to not be like one of these jerks that gets into a ******* contest with them. I do not believe that helps our cause.
    Yes, I complied and took my gun to my truck but I also stated my case appropriately. I think the outcome was good.
    Congratulations on your intelligent approach. Many here would feel that you should confront authority, even though they have no skin in the game. As it was, you got your task completed and the subsequent complaint was met with a far better response than by getting in their face, pointing out how wrong they are, and then refusing to comply.

    Proves one doesn't need to be an A-hole to accomplish the same goals.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGunMan View Post
    NO...... I did not give them my gun.

    I took my gun to my truck. I needed to get my Dealers Lic paperwork done. That was not the time to get pissy with them.
    After I got the paperwork done I said my complaint to them.

    I was trying to not be like one of these jerks that gets into a ******* contest with them. I do not believe that helps our cause.
    Yes, I complied and took my gun to my truck but I also stated my case appropriately. I think the outcome was good.
    Sounded like you did from your OP... good to know you did not give them your gun.

    Oh, I get into ******* contests all the time... that's how we preserve our rights. I held a fll for years .... aft came by a few times and tried to scare folks into giving theirs up (after passage of the Brady bill-my neighborhood had like 1/4 of the folks holding class 1 licenses like me) ... it only prompted me to boot them off my land...they said I could not do that as they were being booted off my land....good times

    If you had a complaint, the time to voice is during that time period IMO .. afterwards is meaningless. But to each his own.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Tacitus42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGunMan View Post
    Just got an apology. Had me come down and get reprinted and all went well.
    What exactly did they apologize for? Did they state the area was not restricted?
    "Buzzards gotta eat, same as worms." Josey Wales

  25. #25
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jphoenix View Post
    Seeing as you entered a police station I would have not even considered carrying concealed or open. As others have written, fingerprint areas are used for processing both civilians conducting business or criminals. Laws may be different there but as a practice, I would not even consider carrying my weapon into a police station at all.
    You were probably lucky they did not put a set of cuffs on you and question your motives.

    Glad you did not make a scene, would have looked bad for the rest of the open/concealed community.
    If the carry of a properly holstered firearm into a police station or other government facility is not unlawful why would you not carry? It appears that the LEA cited in the OP knows the law and has remedied the situation encountered by the citizen by re-training their employee(s) and likely formal and/or informal memorandum to ensure future embarrassing occurrences are mitigated.

    TheGunMan, well played and +1 to you Sir.
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