View Poll Results: Do you support SB59 in its current (as of 12/1) form?

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Thread: Official SB59 Debate thread

  1. #1
    Michigan Moderator Shadow Bear's Avatar
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    Official SB59 Debate thread

    This thread is for civil debate on the pros & cons of SB59.

    Any personal attacks, mention of other organizations, spam for other web sites will be immediately deleted.

    Indicate whether you are pro or con, and state your position.

    Make sure you quote any post you are responding to.

    Make sure you use cites to back up your position, when available.

    I want a clean fight, gentlemen. Now, go to your corners, or go on your way.
    'If the people are not ready for the exercise of the non-violence of the brave, they must be ready for the use of force in self defense. There should be no camouflage.....it must never be secret.' MK Gandhi II-146 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)-- Gandhi supports open carry!

    'There is nothing more demoralizing than the fake non-violence of the weak and impotent.' MK Gandhi II-153 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)

  2. #2
    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    Here is the bill as it stands now-

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/docume...-SEBS-0059.htm
    If guns cause crime, all mine are defective- Ted Nugent

  3. #3
    Michigan Moderator Shadow Bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by detroit_fan View Post
    Many thanks! This will be the 'official' version covered by the poll.
    'If the people are not ready for the exercise of the non-violence of the brave, they must be ready for the use of force in self defense. There should be no camouflage.....it must never be secret.' MK Gandhi II-146 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)-- Gandhi supports open carry!

    'There is nothing more demoralizing than the fake non-violence of the weak and impotent.' MK Gandhi II-153 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)

  4. #4
    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    My question is simple though the answer is likely not. How does this Bill further OC in Michigan?
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

  5. #5
    Michigan Moderator Shadow Bear's Avatar
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    I am in favor of the bill as it is written based on my understanding of the give & take that is often necessary in politics.

    Could I like it better? Absolutely, but we did not lose our rights overnight, and we will not regain them overnight.

    In the face of 'sufficient' resistance from the 2nd Amendment community, I could see some in the government saying to themselves, 'We'll never please these guys, why even try'. Incremental freedom is still freedom. We need to wear away at the opposition as a stream wears away at the surrounding bedrock. Slow & steady, and given enough time, you have the Grand Canyon.

    The divisiveness of the commentary among ourselves is embarrassing to me. I have no doubt that the opposition is reading our vitriol, and rubbing their hands in glee.

    We need to rally together, and show a unified front for once. What say you? Shall we take a little, or risk getting nothing?
    'If the people are not ready for the exercise of the non-violence of the brave, they must be ready for the use of force in self defense. There should be no camouflage.....it must never be secret.' MK Gandhi II-146 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)-- Gandhi supports open carry!

    'There is nothing more demoralizing than the fake non-violence of the weak and impotent.' MK Gandhi II-153 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)

  6. #6
    Michigan Moderator Shadow Bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by griffin View Post
    Reported.
    Quote Originally Posted by Raggs View Post
    My question is simple though the answer is likely not. How does this Bill further OC in Michigan?
    I'm going to call it a legitimate question. The answer is, it does not.

    What it does do is further a higher objective, and that is the restoration of some human rights, albeit with a price.

    How many people actually OCed in a PFZ? I don't know, but I will start a thread with that poll.

    The human right of self protection will now be available for a greater number of people; a greater good, for which I believe the sacrifice is appropriate.
    'If the people are not ready for the exercise of the non-violence of the brave, they must be ready for the use of force in self defense. There should be no camouflage.....it must never be secret.' MK Gandhi II-146 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)-- Gandhi supports open carry!

    'There is nothing more demoralizing than the fake non-violence of the weak and impotent.' MK Gandhi II-153 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)

  7. #7
    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Bear View Post
    I am in favor of the bill as it is written based on my understanding of the give & take that is often necessary in politics.

    Could I like it better? Absolutely, but we did not lose our rights overnight, and we will not regain them overnight.

    In the face of 'sufficient' resistance from the 2nd Amendment community, I could see some in the government saying to themselves, 'We'll never please these guys, why even try'. Incremental freedom is still freedom. We need to wear away at the opposition as a stream wears away at the surrounding bedrock. Slow & steady, and given enough time, you have the Grand Canyon.

    The divisiveness of the commentary among ourselves is embarrassing to me. I have no doubt that the opposition is reading our vitriol, and rubbing their hands in glee.

    We need to rally together, and show a unified front for once. What say you? Shall we take a little, or risk getting nothing?
    I'm with you on this one.
    Big Gay Al
    Coordinator, Michigan Pink Pistols
    Big Gay Al's Big Gay (Gun) Blog
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  8. #8
    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    Well,,,

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Bear View Post
    I'm going to call it a legitimate question. The answer is, it does not.

    What it does do is further a higher objective, and that is the restoration of some human rights, albeit with a price.

    How many people actually OCed in a PFZ? I don't know, but I will start a thread with that poll.

    The human right of self protection will now be available for a greater number of people; a greater good, for which I believe the sacrifice is appropriate.
    I am "a greater number of people".
    I have a washington state, resident, concealled pistol permit,, Honored by michigan.
    If sb59 passes,,, I will not be allowed to be armed for my self defense while I shop for food,,,
    because the store also sells beer!!!

    SB59 doesnt improve the "rights" of ANYONE in michigan!
    It does detract from the "permitted" lawful self defense of the citizens of all the other states.
    If you support sb59,,,, thanks for nothing!
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

  9. #9
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Official SB59 Debate thread

    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    I am "a greater number of people".
    I have a washington state, resident, concealled pistol permit,, Honored by michigan.
    If sb59 passes,,, I will not be allowed to be armed for my self defense while I shop for food,,,
    because the store also sells beer!!!

    SB59 doesnt improve the "rights" of ANYONE in michigan!
    It does detract from the "permitted" lawful self defense of the citizens of all the other states.
    If you support sb59,,,, thanks for nothing!
    Point of clarification, you'd still be able to shop for food, as Meijers, Walmart, et. al. would fall under MCL 750.234d, not MCL 28.425o.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  10. #10
    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Bear View Post
    I'm going to call it a legitimate question. The answer is, it does not.

    What it does do is further a higher objective, and that is the restoration of some human rights, albeit with a price.

    How many people actually OCed in a PFZ? I don't know, but I will start a thread with that poll.

    The human right of self protection will now be available for a greater number of people; a greater good, for which I believe the sacrifice is appropriate.
    Thank you Mr Bear
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    I am "a greater number of people".
    I have a washington state, resident, concealled pistol permit,, Honored by michigan.
    If sb59 passes,,, I will not be allowed to be armed for my self defense while I shop for food,,,
    because the store also sells beer!!!

    SB59 doesnt improve the "rights" of ANYONE in michigan!
    It does detract from the "permitted" lawful self defense of the citizens of all the other states.
    If you support sb59,,,, thanks for nothing!
    The prohibition of OC in the PFZ's (MCL 28.425o) in Michigan are for persons licensed under the act (Act 372 of 1927) with the exemption.

    MCL 750.234d, exempts persons from this state or another state with a license to carry a concealed pistol.

  12. #12
    Regular Member WilDChilD's Avatar
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    For me personally SB59 is a good thing. Because of things out of my control I cc 95% of the time. I also have the funds to take the class and pay the fee to update my cpl. I can see the other sides opinion and how it would hurt them but that's just not the case for me. One thing about SB59 that is for sure, MI firearms laws are still just as confusing. But after the news today, we are not any farther along than a month ago.

  13. #13
    Regular Member DetroitBiker's Avatar
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    I am Pro SB59 in its current form.
    IMO It's not perfect ,but I believe it's a step in the right direction.
    I've been a CPL holder for 8 years, and Have always believed that we should be able
    to carry in these Michigan PFZ's ,but I also understand that trying to convince the general Public
    that this is a good thing is not easy. I Open Carry in some places and conceal in others. That's just my personal choice.

    I have Open carried in PFZ,s a few times,but not very often. My reason for Not OCing in these places was simply
    not be hassled in front of family members,Or going through a costly court battle in order to clear myself on some bogus charges.
    that may occur etc..

    Talking with several friends that have CPls, Ive found that most felt the same way. Not all,but most that I know anyways.
    To the die Hard OC guys,I know its hard for them to swallow this compromise. But I do understand why it was necessary in order to
    make the bill happen. It's my hope that SB59 passes ,and eventually when the general public learns that Law abiding Responsible gun owners
    can be trusted in All areas, then The laws can be tweaked at a later time to include Open carry.

    If SB59 passed, I for one would be armed in more Places then I currently am. And when I compare the 300,000+ Michigan CPL holders Vs. the few hundred Ocers of which probably only a few dozen actually Open Carry in PFZs on a regular basis. It's easy for me to support this bill.

    Just my two cents of why I support SB59 ,and also support MOC's stance as well.

  14. #14
    Regular Member backenj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Bear View Post

    How many people actually OCed in a PFZ? .
    How many people (legally) CC in a PFZ? Zero. How many people OC in a PFZ? Any body with a CPL that wants to. With it passing I'll have to pay for the "privilege" to CC when I can all ready OC.

  15. #15
    Regular Member griffin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by backenj View Post
    I'll have to pay for the "privilege" to CC when I can all ready OC.
    You cannot legally OC in a PFZ unless you pay for the privilege.
    "If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." – William F. Buckley
    "...go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." – Samuel Adams
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  16. #16
    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by backenj View Post
    How many people (legally) CC in a PFZ? Zero. How many people OC in a PFZ? Any body with a CPL that wants to. With it passing I'll have to pay for the "privilege" to CC when I can all ready OC.
    That argument really doesn't work though, because you can only OC in the PFZ's if you have a CPL, so it's already a privilege, correct?
    If guns cause crime, all mine are defective- Ted Nugent

  17. #17
    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by backenj View Post
    How many people (legally) CC in a PFZ? Zero. How many people OC in a PFZ? Any body with a CPL that wants to. With it passing I'll have to pay for the "privilege" to CC when I can all ready OC.
    Actually, there are more than Zero that can legally CC in a PFZ. Anyone with the box checked on their CPL, like Private investigators, cops who have CPLs, judges or any of the other "exempted class" of CPL holders can and likely do CC legally in PFZs.
    Big Gay Al
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  18. #18
    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by detroit_fan View Post
    That argument really doesn't work though, because you can only OC in the PFZ's if you have a CPL, so it's already a privilege, correct?
    Isnt it a privilege we as OCers will lose? for what in return? This bill is great for CCers.
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

  19. #19
    Regular Member MikeTheGreek's Avatar
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    Pro. I think this is going to be helpful for the goals we hope to accomplish in the future, even if some consider it a step back.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Bear View Post
    mention of other organizations, spam for other web sites will be immediately deleted.
    Just to be a dick...PETA.


  20. #20
    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raggs View Post
    Isnt it a privilege we as OCers will lose? for what in return? This bill is great for CCers.
    I don't think this bill is so great for CCers. I OC and CC, depending on the weather and location. But this bill, to me, is a mixed bag. Sure, it will get rid of the PFZs but, only if I take ANOTHER stupid class that I really don't need. And of course, I have to pay more money that I really can't afford but, I'll probably try to find the money somehow.

    Add to that, when I do CC in the PFZs, I'll have to be sure that my pistol is covered adequately, so no one goes around screaming "He's OCing in a PFZ, quick, call the po-po!" Always before, when I CC, I knew that because of how our laws were written, I didn't have to worry about anyone "accidentally" seeing my gun. If this law is passed, and I get the little check mark and all, I'll have to worry about it in PFZs. Frankly, from my point of view, that sucks. But, it's better than not being able to pack at all. And with this law, we won't have to depend on an MSP training bulletin, or an AG's opinion either.
    Big Gay Al
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  21. #21
    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    Back on topic...

    I do support the bill as written, for a couple reasons. The OC part has been well discussed, and I think the majority of us dislike it, but I also think the advantage of having a "black and white" law that carry is allowed in these places is a good thing. If that was the only part of the bill I would probably oppose it, but it does include some very good things imo, those are-

    Elimination of the gun boards. We have all complained about them for a long time, I would be happy to see them go away. They can also no longer force you to appear just to get a CPL, they would have to include what statue they believe would prohibit you from obtaining your CPL in order to make you appear.

    Elimination of long waits to get CPL. Currently some counties take several months to issue, under 59 they would only have 45 days from the time you apply to issue or deny you, so no matter where you live you WILL be given an answer in 45 days or less

    A requirement that any denial of CPL or denial of PFZ endorsement include an explanation with the statue that they are denying under, and the ability to take them to court and win all fee's costs from them if you win.

    A section in 59 says counties CAN NOT force you to fill out any forms or give any information other than the MSP approved CPL application. This would eliminate some of the counties that require "extra" paperwork.

    They also could not force you to "prove" you have met the training requirement for renewal, they woudl be prohibited from requiring anything more than a signed statement. This would help in some counties that have tried to make you do re-training for renewal.

    Fingerprint access would be better. The bill says this about fingerprints-

    Reasonable access to fingerprinting services during normal business hours as is necessary to comply with the requirements of this act The failure of a county sheriff to maintain fingerprinting capability in compliance with this act or to provide reasonable access to fingerprinting services during normal business hours to applicants for a concealed pistol license on the day of application does not affect the 45-day period from the date of application in which the licensing authority is required to issue or deny a license.



    So with all of that said, I do think there is more good than bad in the bill. I also think the bill is dead and not going to pass, but that is just a feeling I have.
    If guns cause crime, all mine are defective- Ted Nugent

  22. #22
    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    The only comment on what you said is this, you point out many good things for the CC crowd and I totally agree that it is good for them, there is nothing good for OC at all, and this is an OC site not a CC site.

    Quote Originally Posted by detroit_fan View Post
    I do support the bill as written, for a couple reasons. The OC part has been well discussed, and I think the majority of us dislike it, but I also think the advantage of having a "black and white" law that carry is allowed in these places is a good thing. If that was the only part of the bill I would probably oppose it, but it does include some very good things imo, those are-

    Elimination of the gun boards. We have all complained about them for a long time, I would be happy to see them go away. They can also no longer force you to appear just to get a CPL, they would have to include what statue they believe would prohibit you from obtaining your CPL in order to make you appear.

    Elimination of long waits to get CPL. Currently some counties take several months to issue, under 59 they would only have 45 days from the time you apply to issue or deny you, so no matter where you live you WILL be given an answer in 45 days or less

    A requirement that any denial of CPL or denial of PFZ endorsement include an explanation with the statue that they are denying under, and the ability to take them to court and win all fee's costs from them if you win.

    A section in 59 says counties CAN NOT force you to fill out any forms or give any information other than the MSP approved CPL application. This would eliminate some of the counties that require "extra" paperwork.

    They also could not force you to "prove" you have met the training requirement for renewal, they woudl be prohibited from requiring anything more than a signed statement. This would help in some counties that have tried to make you do re-training for renewal.

    Fingerprint access would be better. The bill says this about fingerprints-

    Reasonable access to fingerprinting services during normal business hours as is necessary to comply with the requirements of this act The failure of a county sheriff to maintain fingerprinting capability in compliance with this act or to provide reasonable access to fingerprinting services during normal business hours to applicants for a concealed pistol license on the day of application does not affect the 45-day period from the date of application in which the licensing authority is required to issue or deny a license.



    So with all of that said, I do think there is more good than bad in the bill. I also think the bill is dead and not going to pass, but that is just a feeling I have.
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

  23. #23
    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raggs View Post
    The only comment on what you said is this, you point out many good things for the CC crowd and I totally agree that it is good for them, there is nothing good for OC at all, and this is an OC site not a CC site.
    well, lets get technical here...

    In MI you can OC without a CPL, but you are very limited on where. So most of us(i think) who OC do so with a CPL. This bill makes getting that CPL easier(for the reasons i mentioned), therefore making it easier to OC in more places, wouldn't you agree?
    Last edited by detroit_fan; 12-03-2012 at 09:40 PM.
    If guns cause crime, all mine are defective- Ted Nugent

  24. #24
    Regular Member griffin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raggs View Post
    there is nothing good for OC at all
    It eliminates the gun boards. That is good for almost all OCers.

    It shortens the CPL wait time and provides for relief if abused. That is good for almost all OCers.

    It codifies legal carry in formerly PFZs. And even though it mandates CC in those areas, it does affect and is good for all, including most OCers.

    How is this bill not good for almost all OCers?
    "If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." – William F. Buckley
    "...go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." – Samuel Adams
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  25. #25
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    I doubt it's going to pass, suspect many groups (not firearm users ) will be out to fight
    it in the house.
    I seldom OC so it's good for me and most that carry. I know some that OC a lot who
    do not carry in the PFZs.....don't want to be a test case.
    I'd rather be able to CC in them without worry and the bill provides this.
    Dave

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