• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

Official SB59 Debate thread

Do you support SB59 in its current (as of 12/1) form?


  • Total voters
    39
Status
Not open for further replies.

Shadow Bear

Michigan Moderator
Joined
Dec 17, 2010
Messages
1,004
Location
Grand Rapids
This thread is for civil debate on the pros & cons of SB59.

Any personal attacks, mention of other organizations, spam for other web sites will be immediately deleted.

Indicate whether you are pro or con, and state your position.

Make sure you quote any post you are responding to.

Make sure you use cites to back up your position, when available.

I want a clean fight, gentlemen. Now, go to your corners, or go on your way.
 

Shadow Bear

Michigan Moderator
Joined
Dec 17, 2010
Messages
1,004
Location
Grand Rapids
I am in favor of the bill as it is written based on my understanding of the give & take that is often necessary in politics.

Could I like it better? Absolutely, but we did not lose our rights overnight, and we will not regain them overnight.

In the face of 'sufficient' resistance from the 2nd Amendment community, I could see some in the government saying to themselves, 'We'll never please these guys, why even try'. Incremental freedom is still freedom. We need to wear away at the opposition as a stream wears away at the surrounding bedrock. Slow & steady, and given enough time, you have the Grand Canyon.

The divisiveness of the commentary among ourselves is embarrassing to me. I have no doubt that the opposition is reading our vitriol, and rubbing their hands in glee.

We need to rally together, and show a unified front for once. What say you? Shall we take a little, or risk getting nothing?
 

Shadow Bear

Michigan Moderator
Joined
Dec 17, 2010
Messages
1,004
Location
Grand Rapids
Reported.

My question is simple though the answer is likely not. How does this Bill further OC in Michigan?

I'm going to call it a legitimate question. The answer is, it does not.

What it does do is further a higher objective, and that is the restoration of some human rights, albeit with a price.

How many people actually OCed in a PFZ? I don't know, but I will start a thread with that poll.

The human right of self protection will now be available for a greater number of people; a greater good, for which I believe the sacrifice is appropriate.
 

Big Gay Al

Michigan Moderator
Joined
Aug 27, 2006
Messages
1,944
Location
Mason, Michigan, USA
I am in favor of the bill as it is written based on my understanding of the give & take that is often necessary in politics.

Could I like it better? Absolutely, but we did not lose our rights overnight, and we will not regain them overnight.

In the face of 'sufficient' resistance from the 2nd Amendment community, I could see some in the government saying to themselves, 'We'll never please these guys, why even try'. Incremental freedom is still freedom. We need to wear away at the opposition as a stream wears away at the surrounding bedrock. Slow & steady, and given enough time, you have the Grand Canyon.

The divisiveness of the commentary among ourselves is embarrassing to me. I have no doubt that the opposition is reading our vitriol, and rubbing their hands in glee.

We need to rally together, and show a unified front for once. What say you? Shall we take a little, or risk getting nothing?
I'm with you on this one.
 

1245A Defender

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 7, 2009
Messages
4,365
Location
north mason county, Washington, USA
Well,,,

I'm going to call it a legitimate question. The answer is, it does not.

What it does do is further a higher objective, and that is the restoration of some human rights, albeit with a price.

How many people actually OCed in a PFZ? I don't know, but I will start a thread with that poll.

The human right of self protection will now be available for a greater number of people; a greater good, for which I believe the sacrifice is appropriate.

I am "a greater number of people".
I have a washington state, resident, concealled pistol permit,, Honored by michigan.
If sb59 passes,,, I will not be allowed to be armed for my self defense while I shop for food,,,
because the store also sells beer!!!

SB59 doesnt improve the "rights" of ANYONE in michigan!
It does detract from the "permitted" lawful self defense of the citizens of all the other states.
If you support sb59,,,, thanks for nothing!
 

TheQ

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2010
Messages
3,379
Location
Lansing, Michigan
I am "a greater number of people".
I have a washington state, resident, concealled pistol permit,, Honored by michigan.
If sb59 passes,,, I will not be allowed to be armed for my self defense while I shop for food,,,
because the store also sells beer!!!

SB59 doesnt improve the "rights" of ANYONE in michigan!
It does detract from the "permitted" lawful self defense of the citizens of all the other states.
If you support sb59,,,, thanks for nothing!

Point of clarification, you'd still be able to shop for food, as Meijers, Walmart, et. al. would fall under MCL 750.234d, not MCL 28.425o.
 

Raggs

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 18, 2012
Messages
1,181
Location
Wild Wild West Michigan
I'm going to call it a legitimate question. The answer is, it does not.

What it does do is further a higher objective, and that is the restoration of some human rights, albeit with a price.

How many people actually OCed in a PFZ? I don't know, but I will start a thread with that poll.

The human right of self protection will now be available for a greater number of people; a greater good, for which I believe the sacrifice is appropriate.

Thank you Mr Bear :)
 

SpringerXDacp

New member
Joined
May 12, 2006
Messages
3,341
Location
Burton, Michigan
I am "a greater number of people".
I have a washington state, resident, concealled pistol permit,, Honored by michigan.
If sb59 passes,,, I will not be allowed to be armed for my self defense while I shop for food,,,
because the store also sells beer!!!

SB59 doesnt improve the "rights" of ANYONE in michigan!
It does detract from the "permitted" lawful self defense of the citizens of all the other states.
If you support sb59,,,, thanks for nothing!

The prohibition of OC in the PFZ's (MCL 28.425o) in Michigan are for persons licensed under the act (Act 372 of 1927) with the exemption.

MCL 750.234d, exempts persons from this state or another state with a license to carry a concealed pistol.
 

WilDChilD

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2010
Messages
286
Location
Dewitt, Michigan, USA
For me personally SB59 is a good thing. Because of things out of my control I cc 95% of the time. I also have the funds to take the class and pay the fee to update my cpl. I can see the other sides opinion and how it would hurt them but that's just not the case for me. One thing about SB59 that is for sure, MI firearms laws are still just as confusing. But after the news today, we are not any farther along than a month ago.
 

DetroitBiker

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2009
Messages
318
Location
USA
I am Pro SB59 in its current form.
IMO It's not perfect ,but I believe it's a step in the right direction.
I've been a CPL holder for 8 years, and Have always believed that we should be able
to carry in these Michigan PFZ's ,but I also understand that trying to convince the general Public
that this is a good thing is not easy. I Open Carry in some places and conceal in others. That's just my personal choice.

I have Open carried in PFZ,s a few times,but not very often. My reason for Not OCing in these places was simply
not be hassled in front of family members,Or going through a costly court battle in order to clear myself on some bogus charges.
that may occur etc..

Talking with several friends that have CPls, Ive found that most felt the same way. Not all,but most that I know anyways.
To the die Hard OC guys,I know its hard for them to swallow this compromise. But I do understand why it was necessary in order to
make the bill happen. It's my hope that SB59 passes ,and eventually when the general public learns that Law abiding Responsible gun owners
can be trusted in All areas, then The laws can be tweaked at a later time to include Open carry.

If SB59 passed, I for one would be armed in more Places then I currently am. And when I compare the 300,000+ Michigan CPL holders Vs. the few hundred Ocers of which probably only a few dozen actually Open Carry in PFZs on a regular basis. It's easy for me to support this bill.

Just my two cents of why I support SB59 ,and also support MOC's stance as well.
 

backenj

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 8, 2012
Messages
82
Location
Muskegon,Mi
How many people actually OCed in a PFZ? .

How many people (legally) CC in a PFZ? Zero. How many people OC in a PFZ? Any body with a CPL that wants to. With it passing I'll have to pay for the "privilege" to CC when I can all ready OC.
 

detroit_fan

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2009
Messages
1,172
Location
Monroe, Michigan, USA
How many people (legally) CC in a PFZ? Zero. How many people OC in a PFZ? Any body with a CPL that wants to. With it passing I'll have to pay for the "privilege" to CC when I can all ready OC.

That argument really doesn't work though, because you can only OC in the PFZ's if you have a CPL, so it's already a privilege, correct?
 

Big Gay Al

Michigan Moderator
Joined
Aug 27, 2006
Messages
1,944
Location
Mason, Michigan, USA
How many people (legally) CC in a PFZ? Zero. How many people OC in a PFZ? Any body with a CPL that wants to. With it passing I'll have to pay for the "privilege" to CC when I can all ready OC.

Actually, there are more than Zero that can legally CC in a PFZ. Anyone with the box checked on their CPL, like Private investigators, cops who have CPLs, judges or any of the other "exempted class" of CPL holders can and likely do CC legally in PFZs.
 

Big Gay Al

Michigan Moderator
Joined
Aug 27, 2006
Messages
1,944
Location
Mason, Michigan, USA
Isnt it a privilege we as OCers will lose? for what in return? This bill is great for CCers.
I don't think this bill is so great for CCers. I OC and CC, depending on the weather and location. But this bill, to me, is a mixed bag. Sure, it will get rid of the PFZs but, only if I take ANOTHER stupid class that I really don't need. And of course, I have to pay more money that I really can't afford but, I'll probably try to find the money somehow.

Add to that, when I do CC in the PFZs, I'll have to be sure that my pistol is covered adequately, so no one goes around screaming "He's OCing in a PFZ, quick, call the po-po!" Always before, when I CC, I knew that because of how our laws were written, I didn't have to worry about anyone "accidentally" seeing my gun. If this law is passed, and I get the little check mark and all, I'll have to worry about it in PFZs. Frankly, from my point of view, that sucks. But, it's better than not being able to pack at all. And with this law, we won't have to depend on an MSP training bulletin, or an AG's opinion either.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top