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Thread: CPL and enhanced CPL

  1. #1
    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    CPL and enhanced CPL

    Is it possible to take the two classes and not have a NRA certified instructor?
    if so, who in Michigan teaches these classes and aren't NRA certified?
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

  2. #2
    Regular Member HKcarrier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raggs View Post
    Is it possible to take the two classes and not have a NRA certified instructor?
    if so, who in Michigan teaches these classes and aren't NRA certified?

    I"m hoping that some of the MDFI classes will qualify. I"ve been wanting to take pistol1

    http://www.youtube.com/results?searc....1.vL2XXOnSA9c
    When you put the gun in the holster, put the ego in the gun safe.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raggs View Post
    Is it possible to take the two classes and not have a NRA certified instructor?
    if so, who in Michigan teaches these classes and aren't NRA certified?
    Not sure what you have against the NRA, some of us actually know what we are doing.

    Currently any instructor for any national organization that teaches a course chosen by the state of Michigan can do it, but i believe only NRA courses are recognized at this time.

    Alternatively MCOLES instructors (police instructors) can do it, but they have no recognized course that I know of so the instructors can just make up a course as they go along.

    As for the "second class" nothing has been signed in to law yet, and if it is we still do not know officially what course will be chosen, so any instructor that tells you he can give you "the second class" is flat out lying to you since it does not exist yet in Michigan law, and if it passes we still don't know for sure which it will be, we can only guess.
    Last edited by Small_Arms_Collector; 12-04-2012 at 05:53 PM.

  4. #4
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Small_Arms_Collector View Post
    Not sure what you have against the NRA, some of us actually know what we are doing.

    Currently any instructor for any national organization that teaches a course chosen by the state of Michigan can do it, but i believe only NRA courses are recognized at this time.

    Alternatively MCOLES instructors (police instructors) can do it, but they have no recognized course that I know of so the instructors can just make up a course as they go along.

    As for the "second class" nothing has been signed in to law yet, and if it is we still do not know officially what course will be chosen, so any instructor that tells you he can give you "the second class" is flat out lying to you since it does not exist yet in Michigan law, and if it passes we still don't know for sure which it will be, we can only guess.
    Not sure this is true, if they meet the criteria in the statute then it will be accepted. There are some others beside the NRA. It's just that the requirements mirror the NRA course and they are ubiquitous, so they are the most common. MONOPOLY.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Many of us hate and despise the NRA with a bitter and furious passion. That does not however mean that we don't like NRA instructors. At least the good ones.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    Not sure this is true, if they meet the criteria in the statute then it will be accepted. There are some others beside the NRA. It's just that the requirements mirror the NRA course and they are ubiquitous, so they are the most common. MONOPOLY.
    28.425j Pistol training or safety program; conditions.

    Sec. 5j.

    (1) A pistol training or safety program described in section 5b(7)(c) meets the requirements for knowledge or training in the safe use and handling of a pistol only if the program consists of not less than 8 hours of instruction and all of the following conditions are met:

    (a) The program is certified by this state or a national or state firearms training organization and provides 5 hours of instruction in, but is not limited to providing instruction in, all of the following:

    (i) The safe storage, use, and handling of a pistol including, but not limited to, safe storage, use, and handling to protect child safety.

    (ii) Ammunition knowledge, and the fundamentals of pistol shooting.

    (iii) Pistol shooting positions.

    (iv) Firearms and the law, including civil liability issues and the use of deadly force. This portion shall be taught by an attorney or an individual trained in the use of deadly force.

    (v) Avoiding criminal attack and controlling a violent confrontation.

    (vi) All laws that apply to carrying a concealed pistol in this state.

    (b) The program provides at least 3 hours of instruction on a firing range and requires firing at least 30 rounds of ammunition.

    (c) The program provides a certificate of completion that states the program complies with the requirements of this section and that the individual successfully completed the course, and that contains the printed name and signature of the course instructor. Not later than October 1, 2004, the certificate of completion shall contain the statement, “This course complies with section 5j of 1927 PA 372.”

    (d) The instructor of the course is certified by this state or a national organization to teach the 8-hour pistol safety training course described in this section.

    (2) A person shall not do either of the following:

    (a) Grant a certificate of completion described under subsection (1)(c) to an individual knowing the individual did not satisfactorily complete the course.

    (b) Present a certificate of completion described under subsection (1)(c) to a concealed weapon licensing board knowing that the individual did not satisfactorily complete the course.

    (3) A person who violates subsection (2) is guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment for not more than 4 years or a fine of not more than $2,500.00, or both.

    (4) A concealed weapons licensing board shall not require that a specific form, color, wording, or other content appear on a certificate of completion, except as provided in subsection (5), and shall accept as valid a certificate of completion issued prior to the effective date of the amendatory act that added this subsection that contains an inaccurate reference or no reference to this section but otherwise complies with this section.

    (5) Beginning October 1, 2004, a concealed weapons licensing board shall require that a certificate of completion contain the statement, “This course complies with section 5j of 1927 PA 372.”.


    As far as I know the NRA course is the only "national, or state training organization" that the state has chosen to accept.
    Last edited by Small_Arms_Collector; 12-04-2012 at 07:45 PM.

  7. #7
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    The state does not need to choose to accept anyone. I can't remember where I looked it up, but I did some time ago, maybe MSP, and as I recall it is specified that if the credentials of the instructor or organization are in question, the issuing county can insist that they be provided, and then they must issue the CPL. This makes sense, because this is all that the law allows for. There is no more oversight called for in the law than to say that it needs to be such and such an organization.

    While the NRA did do a very good job at lobbying to have itself written into law in the majority of states, many, including Michigan following suit, they don't seem to be audacious enough to insist that their private organization is the only option as mandated by law. Instead, they just made themselves the best fit. It doesn't stop others from coming along however, such as these guys, who aren't here yet, but could be at some point. http://www.nacfi.us/info/
    Last edited by Michigander; 12-04-2012 at 07:53 PM.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Small_Arms_Collector View Post
    28.425j Pistol training or safety program; conditions.

    Sec. 5j.

    (1) A pistol training or safety program described in section 5b(7)(c) meets the requirements for knowledge or training in the safe use and handling of a pistol only if the program consists of not less than 8 hours of instruction and all of the following conditions are met:

    (a) The program is certified by this state or a national or state firearms training organization and provides 5 hours of instruction in, but is not limited to providing instruction in, all of the following:

    (i) The safe storage, use, and handling of a pistol including, but not limited to, safe storage, use, and handling to protect child safety.

    (ii) Ammunition knowledge, and the fundamentals of pistol shooting.

    (iii) Pistol shooting positions.

    (iv) Firearms and the law, including civil liability issues and the use of deadly force. This portion shall be taught by an attorney or an individual trained in the use of deadly force.

    (v) Avoiding criminal attack and controlling a violent confrontation.

    (vi) All laws that apply to carrying a concealed pistol in this state.

    (b) The program provides at least 3 hours of instruction on a firing range and requires firing at least 30 rounds of ammunition.

    (c) The program provides a certificate of completion that states the program complies with the requirements of this section and that the individual successfully completed the course, and that contains the printed name and signature of the course instructor. Not later than October 1, 2004, the certificate of completion shall contain the statement, “This course complies with section 5j of 1927 PA 372.”

    (d) The instructor of the course is certified by this state or a national organization to teach the 8-hour pistol safety training course described in this section.

    (2) A person shall not do either of the following:

    (a) Grant a certificate of completion described under subsection (1)(c) to an individual knowing the individual did not satisfactorily complete the course.

    (b) Present a certificate of completion described under subsection (1)(c) to a concealed weapon licensing board knowing that the individual did not satisfactorily complete the course.

    (3) A person who violates subsection (2) is guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment for not more than 4 years or a fine of not more than $2,500.00, or both.

    (4) A concealed weapons licensing board shall not require that a specific form, color, wording, or other content appear on a certificate of completion, except as provided in subsection (5), and shall accept as valid a certificate of completion issued prior to the effective date of the amendatory act that added this subsection that contains an inaccurate reference or no reference to this section but otherwise complies with this section.

    (5) Beginning October 1, 2004, a concealed weapons licensing board shall require that a certificate of completion contain the statement, “This course complies with section 5j of 1927 PA 372.”.


    As far as I know the NRA course is the only "national, or state training organization" that the state has chosen to accept.
    I believe there many be one or two others. What is the definition of National org? Would being in two states count? What about the future, what if GOA started one, etc...?
    A couple with a goggle search.
    http://www.odcmp.com/Comm/About_Us.htm
    http://www.ncfia.net/
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  9. #9
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    The NRA supports mandatory training. Simple, flat out fact.

    But why should mandatory training be required? I don't need to train to shoot my mouth off.

    In my state you need training to get a permit to carry outside of the 4 walls of my house ... but it does not stop me from handling the gun inside my house...I don't need a permit to practice my 1st amendment rights outside my house.

    There is little data to support that the mandatory training does any good either. The criteria for what makes an acceptable course does not exist..its a total arbitrary system.

    The NRA should stop doing classes all together ... but its FOR PROFIT activity....

    Many or most states don't require NRA or other safety training to buy, handle, and shoot a firearm (and their injury rates are no different than those that do) .. so why does the NRA support mandatory training?

    The NRA is a "gun control" organization; it has to be if they wish to give opinion on gun control issues ... they need to seem to be "reasonable" ... For example, the NRA supported gun locks, SCOTUS shot this down without a whimper from and anti-gun establishment. I don't think the NRA knows what the 2nd amendment is for ... I NEVER heard them argue that its to defend ourselves from our government. All I hear from the NRA is "criminals", "hunters", and other such nonsense not directly related to the 2nd amendment.

    The NRA should get out of the business of offering safety classes .... they do no good and only cost people $$.

  10. #10
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Many or most states don't require NRA or other safety training to buy, handle, and shoot a firearm (and their injury rates are no different than those that do) .. so why does the NRA support mandatory training?
    It's very simple. Open carrying, which they have the potential to make explode in popularity, would sway a whole lot more people against gun grabbers if it became a daily sight. That would give them less to do with their business they conduct.

    Their classes directly funnel money back to them with the books they provide with the courses. This one.

    http://www.nrablog.com/image.axd?pic...TH_booklet.jpg

    The classes do of course also offer them a means to attract new members. If they ever went truly pro gun rather than pro capitalism (and I'm not saying that to knock capitalism) I don't know how they'd survive.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

  11. #11
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    With the training that Michigan requires for there cpl theres only 2 other state that have as many state that lets us carry none have more we are tide with Louisiana and Arkansas and most of the state that don't recognize our permit don't honor any out of state permits . So yes i'm glad we have to take the training

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by mirussell View Post
    . So yes i'm glad we have to take the training
    I support training but not mandatory training ... there are plenty of experts at every gun range in the nation to get training from ... heck, experts abound everywhere. If you think that the state has to approve experts for training then you support this aspect of gun control because that's what it is - gun control.

    Its actually designed to make people pay $$$$ for their rights .... originally thought up to limit the poorer people the ability to own guns.

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