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Thread: SB 59 pulled?

  1. #1
    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    SB 59 pulled?

    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    SB 59 UPDATE AND ACTION ALERT: Committee Chair Frank Foster has pulled SB 59 from the agenda of tomorrow's House Natural Resources Committee meeting. With just over a week left in the legislative session, this has the serious potential to kill the bill. Please e-mail Rep. Foster at FrankFoster@house.mi.gov and politely ask him to consider and pass SB 59 tomorrow.
    Just out of curiosity, did anyone email Frank Foster (Other than me)? And if you did, did you receive a reply?
    Big Gay Al
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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Gay Al View Post
    Just out of curiosity, did anyone email Frank Foster (Other than me)? And if you did, did you receive a reply?
    I did and I received no reply. I also emailed my rep who apparently has a CPL. She didn't seem to be in favor of the bill by what she said but didn't really say either way.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
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    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    I called and left a voicemail, no callback. This is the latest update from MCRGO-

    SB 59 UPDATE: Senate Bill 59 will be scheduled for testimony and a vote in next week's House Natural Resources Committee. We expect it to be voted on by the full House later next week. The House will be in session all next week.
    If guns cause crime, all mine are defective- Ted Nugent

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by detroit_fan View Post
    I called and left a voicemail, no callback. This is the latest update from MCRGO-

    SB 59 UPDATE: Senate Bill 59 will be scheduled for testimony and a vote in next week's House Natural Resources Committee. We expect it to be voted on by the full House later next week. The House will be in session all next week.
    I don't see this bill becoming law. Why the heck else would they move it back another week?
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  5. #5
    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    I did and I received no reply. I also emailed my rep who apparently has a CPL. She didn't seem to be in favor of the bill by what she said but didn't really say either way.
    Yeah, she's probably already got her little box check marked.
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    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    I don't see this bill becoming law. Why the heck else would they move it back another week?
    they moved it back a week so that snyder could pocket veto it, like he will HB5225. i have no proof to back up that claim, but that is my personal belief.

    personally i think there is a 99% chance this bill is dead. I know that will make some happy, but now that the OC in a PFZ exemption has been exposed to the masses I can see them closing it, and us losing all forms of carry in those PFZ's.
    If guns cause crime, all mine are defective- Ted Nugent

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by detroit_fan View Post
    they moved it back a week so that snyder could pocket veto it, like he will HB5225. i have no proof to back up that claim, but that is my personal belief.

    personally i think there is a 99% chance this bill is dead. I know that will make some happy, but now that the OC in a PFZ exemption has been exposed to the masses I can see them closing it, and us losing all forms of carry in those PFZ's.
    Yeah it's too bad we can't get gun owners on the same page to support bills like this. So many think unless the bill allows for constitutional carry anywhere and everywhere it's garbage and we shouldn't allow it to pass. Oh to live in a fantasy world......
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by detroit_fan View Post
    they moved it back a week so that snyder could pocket veto it, like he will HB5225. i have no proof to back up that claim, but that is my personal belief.

    personally i think there is a 99% chance this bill is dead. I know that will make some happy, but now that the OC in a PFZ exemption has been exposed to the masses I can see them closing it, and us losing all forms of carry in those PFZ's.
    Nah, remember that was just a gray area
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

  9. #9
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raggs View Post
    Nah, remember that was just a gray area
    It WAS/IS a gray area, if they change the wording and the law, then it will more likely be black and white.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by detroit_fan View Post
    personally i think there is a 99% chance this bill is dead. I know that will make some happy, but now that the OC in a PFZ exemption has been exposed to the masses I can see them closing it, and us losing all forms of carry in those PFZ's.
    I welcome a straight-up fight with anti-gunners over OC in PFZs, versus the detestable act of compromising it away. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    It WAS/IS a gray area, if they change the wording and the law, then it will more likely be black and white.
    I don't see it as a gray area, but I will say this if some think it is:

    While I don't like gray areas, I'll take your gray area that does not explicitly ban OC over your black and white that does explicitly ban OC.

    At least with the gray area, *I* get to assess whether the risk is low or high and choose whether or not I OC.
    Last edited by DanM; 12-04-2012 at 03:11 PM.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    I welcome a straight-up fight with anti-gunners over OC in PFZs, versus the detestable act of compromising it away. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ.
    Some of us can't afford that fight, so will you provide our legal expenses if we are arrested for OC'ing in a PFZ?
    Last edited by Big Gay Al; 12-04-2012 at 03:51 PM. Reason: added 't
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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    I don't see it as a gray area, but I will say this if some think it is:

    While I don't like gray areas, I'll take your gray area that does not explicitly ban OC over your black and white that does explicitly ban OC.

    At least with the gray area, *I* get to assess whether the risk is low or high and choose whether or not I OC.
    I agree.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by detroit_fan View Post
    Some of us can afford that fight, so will you provide our legal expenses if we are arrested for OC'ing in a PFZ?
    I'll reiterate:

    I don't see it as a gray area, but I will say this if some think it is:

    While I don't like gray areas, I'll take your gray area that does not explicitly ban OC over your black and white that does explicitly ban OC.

    At least with the gray area, *I* get to assess whether the risk is low or high and choose whether or not I OC.

    By all means, if you assess the risk as high then don't OC in a PFZ. But shouldn't someone who assesses the risk as low or none be free to do so, rather than there be an outright black-and-white ban on OC in PFZ? Which is worse?
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    Yeah it's too bad we can't get gun owners on the same page to support bills like this. So many think unless the bill allows for constitutional carry anywhere and everywhere it's garbage and we shouldn't allow it to pass. Oh to live in a fantasy world......
    I don't recall all the details but there was a major debate/argument here not long ago where advocates of OC were becoming divided over the quest of ConCarry versus the elimination of PFZ's (?). I was taken back quite a bit at the time that some folks could not see the removal of PFZ's as being the "Baby Steps" to ConCarry. It was, without a doubt, an all or nothing mentality that plagued this forum as it does to this day.

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    Yeah it's too bad we can't get gun owners on the same page to support bills like this. So many think unless the bill allows for constitutional carry anywhere and everywhere it's garbage and we shouldn't allow it to pass. Oh to live in a fantasy world......
    The problem with SB59 is not that it doesn't go far enough forward with OC, it's that it goes BACKWARD with OC.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    Regular Member HKcarrier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    Yeah it's too bad we can't get gun owners on the same page to support bills like this. So many think unless the bill allows for constitutional carry anywhere and everywhere it's garbage and we shouldn't allow it to pass. Oh to live in a fantasy world......
    That's because some people can't see past the end of their noses and it's all ME ME ME.... what's in it for ME?!?!? THey can't take a small hit that will most likely be temporary (5 years) on something they probably don't do anyways in order to ensure that more of us can SAFELY carry in these areas. They can't see the big picture...




    Quote Originally Posted by SpringerXDacp View Post
    I don't recall all the details but there was a major debate/argument here not long ago where advocates of OC were becoming divided over the quest of ConCarry versus the elimination of PFZ's (?). I was taken back quite a bit at the time that some folks could not see the removal of PFZ's as being the "Baby Steps" to ConCarry. It was, without a doubt, an all or nothing mentality that plagued this forum as it does to this day.
    Yep... fantasy world indeed... "I get exactly what I want or I'm going to throw a tantrum and get nothing"... bunch of pissy pants cry babies.
    Last edited by HKcarrier; 12-04-2012 at 04:01 PM.
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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpringerXDacp View Post
    I don't recall all the details but there was a major debate/argument here not long ago where advocates of OC were becoming divided over the quest of ConCarry versus the elimination of PFZ's (?). I was taken back quite a bit at the time that some folks could not see the removal of PFZ's as being the "Baby Steps" to ConCarry. It was, without a doubt, an all or nothing mentality that plagued this forum as it does to this day.
    The problem with SB59 is not whether it takes baby steps or giant steps forward with OC, it's that it takes BACKWARD steps with OC.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  19. #19
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    SB 59 pulled?

    ...
    Last edited by TheQ; 12-04-2012 at 04:26 PM.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    The problem with SB59 is not whether it takes baby steps or giant steps forward with OC, it's that it takes BACKWARD steps with OC.
    In my previous comment, I wasn't agreeing or disagreeing with the Bill. Really all I was saying is that:

    Thread Created: Discussion SB59-Take (1):

    Person "A": I support SB59 and hope it passes, because...
    Person "B": I don't support SB59 and hope it dies, because...

    Person "A": You're an idiot...
    Person "B": No, you're an idiot...

    Thread Locked

    Thread Created: Discussion SB59-Take (2):

    Insert Discussion SB59-Take (1)
    .
    .
    .
    Thread Locked
    .
    .
    .

    Each and everyone of us here, and elsewhere, may have reasons for agreeing or disagreeing on certain issues. i.e. Person "A" opinion(s) carries no more weight than Person "B" opinion(s).

    I will admit, I do not support SB 59. However, it's not for reasons many may think. My reason(s) for not supporting the Bill are mine and mine alone. But just for reference, I don't have a serious problem if I needed, or was required, to CC in a PFZ. Do I think, in my opinion, the requirement to CC is beyond retarded? Yes I do.

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    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    I'll reiterate:

    I don't see it as a gray area, but I will say this if some think it is:

    While I don't like gray areas, I'll take your gray area that does not explicitly ban OC over your black and white that does explicitly ban OC.

    At least with the gray area, *I* get to assess whether the risk is low or high and choose whether or not I OC.

    By all means, if you assess the risk as high then don't OC in a PFZ. But shouldn't someone who assesses the risk as low or none be free to do so, rather than there be an outright black-and-white ban on OC in PFZ? Which is worse?
    That is a great way of looking at it, provided you can even afford to make that choice. Ensuring my safety should be an assessment of risk.

    If SB59 fails to pass, Michigan residents have these options in PFZ's-

    #1-carry concealed anyways, which is committing a crime, and deal with the associated expenses and consequences of that choice(most of us wish to follow the law)

    #2-OC in the PFZ, but risk arrest and the associated expenses for defending that choice in court(more money than most can afford)

    #3-disarm completely because you don't want to risk the first 2 options.(this is what 99% of MI CPL holders do)

    Now, considering those are my current options, I have no choice but to go with #3 due to lack of funds to make #2 a viable option. If SB59 passes we lose option #2(something that really isn't an option to most of us due to the amount of money necessary), but gain a new option of paying a much smaller price to have a black and white law that allows CC in those places.

    Is it a privilege, yes. Does it suck that I would have to pay for a class, yes. But the $100 that the class costs is MUCH more affordable to most people than fighting an OC in a PFZ court case, and much cheaper than getting caught CC in a PFZ without the exemption.
    If guns cause crime, all mine are defective- Ted Nugent

  22. #22
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    SB 59 pulled?

    Quote Originally Posted by SpringerXDacp View Post
    In my previous comment, I wasn't agreeing or disagreeing with the Bill. Really all I was saying is that:

    Thread Created: Discussion SB59-Take (1):

    Person "A": I support SB59 and hope it passes, because...
    Person "B": I don't support SB59 and hope it dies, because...

    Person "A": You're an idiot...
    Person "B": No, you're an idiot...

    Thread Locked

    Thread Created: Discussion SB59-Take (2):

    Insert Discussion SB59-Take (1)
    .
    .
    .
    Thread Locked
    .
    .
    .

    Each and everyone of us here, and elsewhere, may have reasons for agreeing or disagreeing on certain issues. i.e. Person "A" opinion(s) carries no more weight than Person "B" opinion(s).

    I will admit, I do not support SB 59. However, it's not for reasons many may think. My reason(s) for not supporting the Bill are mine and mine alone. But just for reference, I don't have a serious problem if I needed, or was required, to CC in a PFZ. Do I think, in my opinion, the requirement to CC is beyond retarded? Yes I do.
    Debate belongs in the official debate thread...not this one.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  23. #23
    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    yes... but who will moderate the moderators?
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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by detroit_fan View Post
    Is it a privilege, yes. Does it suck that I would have to pay for a class, yes. But the $100 that the class costs is MUCH more affordable to most people than fighting an OC in a PFZ court case, and much cheaper than getting caught CC in a PFZ without the exemption.
    And if SB59 passes, as written, then you are at risk of being prosecuted for printing or exposure if a prosecutor thinks, despite your protests that it was accidental, he can convince a jury in his area you violated the no display or OC in PFZ part. How many prosecutions for OC in a PFZ in Michigan have there been? One or two, if any? How many prosecutions against CC'ers printing or accidentally exposing in states with OC bans? Several to many.

    OC'ing in a PFZ here in Michigan is much less risky, legally, than CC'ing in no-exposure/display or no-OC zones has proven to be.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  25. #25
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpringerXDacp View Post
    Each and everyone of us here, and elsewhere, may have reasons for agreeing or disagreeing on certain issues. i.e. Person "A" opinion(s) carries no more weight than Person "B" opinion(s).
    I don't buy into "it's all just opinion". Some of it is, but there are objective facts as well as objective principles that have been presented as well.

    An objective principle voiced has been, to paraphrase, "open carry advocates should not support open carry bans". That's not an opinion, that's a principle which is sound.

    An objective fact voiced has been that bans on exposure or OC in other states have resulted in CC'ers being prosecuted for printing or brief exposure. That's not an opinion, that's a fact.
    Last edited by DanM; 12-04-2012 at 06:28 PM.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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