View Poll Results: What would you have done?

Voters
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  • Jumped into the pit and try to get the guy out

    1 7.14%
  • Go to the edge and try to help from there

    10 71.43%
  • Nothing

    2 14.29%
  • Try to get others to help or dial 911

    1 7.14%
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Thread: NYC subway train killing guy after being pushed onto tracks - poll

  1. #1
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    NYC subway train killing guy after being pushed onto tracks - poll

    However, both Long and Irby said that as a photographer, "you are morally obliged to help" — if possible, rather than take a picture. http://news.msn.com/us/photog-in-nyc...cal-criticisms


    Oh boy, this guy is gonna be eating some crap for awhile. But really, aren't the trains run by electricity? Isn't there a rail that will kill you? People are saying he should have jumped in and helped this guy....I saw doing this is nuts.

    I would have gone to the edge and pull the guy out but I would not jump into the pit myself.

    Of course, the photographer did neither but take some photos...

    Hit the poll with your thoughts...
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 12-05-2012 at 12:25 PM.

  2. #2
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    I'd have done choice # 5 (not listed): Immediately push the assailant onto the tracks, then try rescue the first guy (victim).


    "Isn't there a rail that will kill you?" -- davidmcbeth

    ...the 3rd rail, but only if you urinate on it, as some people seem to do on occasion. ;-)
    Last edited by cloudcroft; 12-05-2012 at 12:39 PM.

  3. #3
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    What poll?

    I clicked the link in the article to the photog's explanation of what happened. I choose to believe him and that he had zero opportunity to help the man. IMO, he did nothing wrong in taking the pictures. In fact, his photos may aid in the investigation.

    GIANT CAVEAT: If he, or anyone else, profited from the pictures, that is gruesome and disgusting.

    On edit: Oh, your poll. Going to the first unread post bypassed the poll and went straight to your post. I thought you meant a poll attached to the article.

    Anyway, I don't see my choice which would be: "I believe the guy in saying that he could do nothing to help the man."
    Last edited by eye95; 12-05-2012 at 12:41 PM.

  4. #4
    Regular Member compmanio365's Avatar
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    People always scream "Why didn't anybody help?", but in real life, just like in a violent attack where you have to defend yourself, these things happen in seconds. By the time your mind accepts what is really happening it is usually too late. And people wander around in condition white, especially in a place like NYC where they are taught they should never worry about defending themselves. I would try to grab his arm and pull him up onto the platform, but I'm afraid from the accounts of witnesses there, that all I would get would be an arm.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by cloudcroft View Post
    ..."Isn't there a rail that will kill you?" -- davidmcbeth

    ...the 3rd rail, but only if you urinate on it, as some people seem to do on occasion. ;-)
    Mythbusters busted this one. Apparently the stream isn't solid enough to conduct the electricity. That did not stop me from telling my students that there were three ways to learn: 1) Listen to others relate their experiences. 2) Watch others make mistakes. 3) Piss on the electric fence yourself. The three ways are listed in decreasing order of pain to the student.

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    @ compmanio365:

    1. In many cases, someone is getting assaulted/beat-up, raped/robbed and such. Consequently, these events -- although happening suddenly -- still take a "few minutes" to complete., which is PLENTY of time to "get involved." Usually though, and as we here all know (I hope), people just watch, take pics on their cellphones, and sometimes, no one even calls 911. So in THOSE cases -- lasting more thna a few seconds -- the criticism of people not getting involved is valid.

    2. You overlook the psychology of the "spontaneous hero response" SOME people exhibit: They react IMMEDIATELY and with no care for the consequences to others OR themselves (which is just OPPOSITE of the Rule # 1 taught to ALL First Responders, BTW). They respond in mere seconds. So yes, it's STILL possible to get involved in a fast-moving crime event.

    3. Finally, there ARE ways to "train" for the unexpected which would place a person a notch ahead of everyone else in responding to something happening very suddenly. Again, this knd of person for sure would be a likely candidate to get involved in a fast-moving crime event.

    4. Still, it's true that: (A) Most people will DO NOTHING to help a victim and (B) a victim should NOT EXPECT ANY HELP from any bystanders during a crime event. We're on our own. If anyone comes to help -- great -- but don't EXPECT it.


    @ eye95:

    That particular case may be true (?) but frankly, it wasn't long after that show first came on that I could see how useless it was to rely on it for anything factual (especially re: something done in history) as those two guys were buffoons and were only producing a show ("Myth Busters") for entertainment value. Consequently, I don't believe most of their "findings" at all. Even if they DID get something right, they were just lucky as their process of investigation was too flawed -- and got more questionable as the series went on. And as mentioned, they had not a CLUE about our ancestors in history, what they COULD or COULD NOT do...and some of those things they COULD do we'd have trouble doing today. So, I stopped watching that show pretty early in its run as I wasn't into its entertainment value...
    Last edited by cloudcroft; 12-05-2012 at 02:20 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Mythbusters busted this one. Apparently the stream isn't solid enough to conduct the electricity. .
    What if you step on it? Bzzz zzz zap?

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    @ davidmcbeth:

    Google "stepping on 3rd rail electrocuted" and lots of stuff comes up.

    Happy reading...;-)
    Last edited by cloudcroft; 12-05-2012 at 01:53 PM.

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    NYC subway train killing guy after being pushed onto tracks - poll

    Quote Originally Posted by cloudcroft View Post
    ...@ eye95:

    That particular case may be true (?) but frankly, it wasn't long after that show first came on that I could see how useless it was to rely on it for anything factual (especially re: something done in history) as those two guys were buffoons and were only producing a show ("Myth Busters") for entertainment value. Consequently, I don't believe most of their "findings" at all...
    May I suggest then that you drink large volumes of beer, find a third rail, and perform your own experiment?


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    NYC subway train killing guy after being pushed onto tracks - poll

    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    What if you step on it? Bzzz zzz zap?
    They have not tested that one. If you test it, video the goings on, and send the video to them, they will probably try to verify your outcome.


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  11. #11
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    The photo in question:



    It looks like the train was about a second from impact, I don't see as how he would have time to do anything.

    Less cropped version:



    It looks like the photographer was at least as far from him as the train was so there was no way to reach him in time.
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    Last edited by Small_Arms_Collector; 12-05-2012 at 07:11 PM.

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    NYC subway train killing guy after being pushed onto tracks - poll

    Quote Originally Posted by Small_Arms_Collector View Post
    The photo in question:



    It looks like the train was about a second from impact, I don't see as how he would have time to do anything.
    Wow, this is the first time I saw this picture. I can't believe the huge crowd of people who are just standing there. No one is anywhere near the guy trying to help. What an absolute shame.

    I don't blame the guy for taking the picture but the paper should not have printed it. Really poor taste.
    Last edited by thebigsd; 12-05-2012 at 07:15 PM.
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  13. #13
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    Apparently the man was pushed intentionally. A suspect is in custody.

    http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012...d-to-his-death
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    @ eye95:

    I invite you to do the same, but as for me, sorry, I don't have time for nonsense. Besides, I'm not auditioning for the movie "******* II," the AFV TV Show or any other such Bravo-Sierra, and I don't get my "science" from a comedy show.

    ...but I did become a M.D. after watching all 9 Seasons of "Scrubs." Made a boatload of money in the years afterwards -- until the malpractice lawsuit. But it was great while it lasted. ;-)
    Last edited by cloudcroft; 12-05-2012 at 07:52 PM.

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    Option 5, hit the big red button that is mounted on the wall in several places, immediately bring the train to a stop. Ops. no big red buttons.....yet

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    "It looks like the train was about a second from impact, I don't see as how he would have time to do anything." -- Small_Arms_Collector


    Although we weren't there to know how far people were from the victim, TRYING takes no time at all...did even just ONE person even TRY?

    [a rhetorical question as I guess no one did]

    ...done here in this thread.
    Last edited by cloudcroft; 12-05-2012 at 07:35 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cloudcroft View Post
    "It looks like the train was about a second from impact, I don't see as how he would have time to do anything." -- Small_Arms_Collector


    Although we weren't there to know how far people were from the victim, TRYING takes no time at all...did even just ONE person even TRY?

    [a rhetorical question as I guess no one did]

    ...done here in this thread.
    Unless your superman you can not out run a speeding train. You can get killed trying though.

  18. #18
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    By the looks of some of the posts, ya'll didn't actuality read the article(s). The photographer didn't just stand there taking pictures because it was a great photo-op. As soon as the saw the guy on the tracks, he started running towards him to try and pull him up, and was wildly snapping pictures to get the train driver's attention with the camera's flash. This is just one picture that happened to have the guy in it.
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    Looking only at the photos, and reading the accompanying article, it appears that - by that point in time - any attempt at rescue would have been extremely dangerous... possibly fatal for the rescuer. Those trains move quickly, very close to the platform, and there is absolutely no room for the slightest margin of error in judgment or timing. From the photo, I'd guess that the closest people in the crowd were probably at least 2-3 seconds away. Yet, 66% of the poll responders said they would try to help from the edge. (NY'ers have a reputation (deserved or not) for not getting involved, and this crowd did nothing to cast doubt upon that rep.) By the time a would-be rescuer would have gotten there, when they bent over to help there's an excellent chance they would have been decapitated!

    The sentiment expressed by that 66% is admirable, but the photog was under no ethical, legal or moral obligation to jeopardize his own life. The headline probably would have read, "NYC subway kills two". (Personally, I probably would have been safely ejected from the pit by the reactive force exerted by expelled fecal matter when I saw the train coming)

    As for the 3rd rail question... as I recall, 3rd rails are almost always at least partially, covered (generally the top and outside edge). This is a safety measure to try to keep all (except those with a serious death wish) from accidental electrocution. Pax...
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Mythbusters busted this one. Apparently the stream isn't solid enough to conduct the electricity. That did not stop me from telling my students that there were three ways to learn: 1) Listen to others relate their experiences. 2) Watch others make mistakes. 3) Piss on the electric fence yourself. The three ways are listed in decreasing order of pain to the student.
    Electric fences have about ten times the voltage of third rails.
    Last edited by MAC702; 12-06-2012 at 01:05 PM.
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  21. #21
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    Electric fences have about ten times the voltage of third rails.
    Consider the amperage.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Consider the amperage.
    I'm an electrician.

    The voltage is what pushes the amperage. What amperage gets pushed will depend on the voltage of the source, and the conductive value of the, uh, "stream."

    Washington, DC metro's subway is about 750 Volts. A typical electric fence is 6-8,000 Volts. It is very possible that the former would not have sufficient voltage to conduct through a certain very weak electrolyte, when the fence absolutely can and probably will. But the fence simply cannot supply the amperage to do anything more than shock the, well, piss out of you. IF a third-rail had sufficient conductive path, it most certainly can supply far more amperage than is necessary to kill.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    NYC subway train killing guy after being pushed onto tracks - poll

    And, the problem with the "stream," as the Mythbusters discovered, was that it wasn't continuous, but an array of individual droplets. While the liquid was highly conductive, the gaps were not, requiring higher voltage to push the current across those gaps. Air is a decent insulator. Good thing, or you'd get zapped walking past an outlet!

    Lightening and sparks can cross air gaps because the air has been turned into a plasma, making it a conductor


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