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Thread: A bill to help people who OC w/o a CPL

  1. #1
    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    A bill to help people who OC w/o a CPL

    This bill does not seem to be getting a lot of attention here, but I think it may be helpful to some of us who do not have a CPL.

    H.B.5282 Transport of firearm-

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%2...e=2012-HB-5282

    MCRGO indicates this bill (along with HB5225) have been reported out of Senate Judiciary and is now before the full Senate. They expect both of the bills will be adopted by the Senate within the coming week. HB 5282 will likely be signed by the governor, HB5225(registration & PP repeal) appears to be headed for a pocket veto. We can all thank the MSP & Sheriffs Association for the death of 5225.
    If guns cause crime, all mine are defective- Ted Nugent

  2. #2
    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/docume...2-HIB-5282.htm

    HOUSE BILL No. 5282

    January 24, 2012, Introduced by Rep. Rendon and referred to the Committee on Judiciary.

    A bill to amend 1931 PA 328, entitled

    "The Michigan penal code,"

    by amending section 231a (MCL 750.231a), as amended by 2008 PA 196.

    THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF MICHIGAN ENACT:

    Sec. 231a. (1) Subsection (2) of section 227 does not apply to

    any of the following:

    (a) To a person holding a valid license to carry a pistol

    concealed upon his or her person issued by his or her state of

    residence except where the pistol is carried in nonconformance with

    a restriction appearing on the license.

    (b) To the regular and ordinary transportation of pistols as

    merchandise by an authorized agent of a person licensed to

    manufacture firearms.

    (c) To a person carrying an antique firearm, as defined in


    subsection (2),
    completely unloaded in a closed case or container

    designed for the storage of firearms in the trunk of a vehicle.

    (d) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful

    purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of the motor

    vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422,

    and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the

    storage of firearms in the trunk of the vehicle.

    (e) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful

    purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of the motor

    vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422,

    and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the

    storage of firearms in a vehicle that does not have a trunk and is

    not readily accessible to the occupants of the vehicle.

    (2) As used in this section, :

    (a) "Antique "ANTIQUE firearm" means either of the following:

    (i) A firearm not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or

    conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and

    manufactured in or before 1898, including a matchlock, flintlock,

    percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica of

    such a firearm, whether actually manufactured before or after 1898.

    (ii) A firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before

    1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United

    States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of

    commercial trade.

    (b) "Lawful purpose" includes the following:

    (i) While en route to or from a hunting or target shooting

    area.


    (ii) While transporting a pistol en route to or from his or her

    home or place of business and place of repair.

    (iii) While moving goods from 1 place of abode or business to

    another place of abode or business.

    (iv) While transporting a licensed pistol en route to or from a

    law enforcement agency or for the purpose of having a law

    enforcement official take possession of the weapon.

    (v) While en route to or from his or her abode or place of

    business and a gun show or places of purchase or sale.

    (vi) While en route to or from his or her abode to a public

    shooting facility or public land where discharge of firearms is

    permitted by law, rule, regulation, or local ordinance.

    (vii) While en route to or from his or her abode to a private

    property location where the pistol is to be used as is permitted by

    law, rule, regulation, or local ordinance.
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by FreeInAZ; 12-05-2012 at 03:10 PM. Reason: bill text w strikes
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  3. #3
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Really all it does is makes the language of the law less confusing. To me really doesn't help much and it's a bill that the GOP can say they helped gun rights in Michigan. Although its better to get this passed than not.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  4. #4
    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    Really all it does is makes the language of the law less confusing. To me really doesn't help much and it's a bill that the GOP can say they helped gun rights in Michigan. Although its better to get this passed than not.
    It is definitely not a "major" win, that is for sure, but some police were trying to use the listed exemptions as the only valid ones.
    If guns cause crime, all mine are defective- Ted Nugent

  5. #5
    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by detroit_fan View Post
    It is definitely not a "major" win, that is for sure, but some police were trying to use the listed exemptions as the only valid ones.
    WAIT! They aren't!!!!!!
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

  6. #6
    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Question

    Just a point to think about. Notice that it took just under a year for this benign bill to get near to becoming / editing a law. Lansing is a cluster BLEEP! I would not hold my breath waiting for any meaningful pro 2A legislation to come out of this gang of turtles.
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    "You must be the change you wish to see in the world" by Mahatma Gandhi

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    Quote Originally Posted by BoiledFrogs View Post
    Remove the following, and it has my support,

    (d.)..............in the trunk of the vehicle.

    (e) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful

    purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of the motor

    vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422,

    and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the

    storage of firearms in a vehicle that does not have a trunk and is

    not readily accessible to the occupants of the vehicle.
    HB5282, just simply confirms what we already knew. In Michigan, to get what you're asking for is going to take ConCarry to do it IMO - it's going to be a while.

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    I had dealt with a State trooper in 2010 and he was telling me that you could ONLY transport a pistol for the reasons listed in the law, so I said "well how do people transport for lawful open carry?" His response: "its a grey area" which is very much false. To see this change, though not huge, I think is necessary just to save people the headache of dealing with one of those cops that refuses to know any better.
    The worst weapon is the human mind, its created and done things far worse than a gun can, has, or ever will. Its the human mind that tells the gun what to do and animates the inanimate object.

    With all these gun control laws in place I have yet to find a single one that has saved someones life, but I can find hundreds of stories where a gun has.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yance View Post
    I had dealt with a State trooper in 2010 and he was telling me that you could ONLY transport a pistol for the reasons listed in the law, so I said "well how do people transport for lawful open carry?" His response: "its a grey area" which is very much false. To see this change, though not huge, I think is necessary just to save people the headache of dealing with one of those cops that refuses to know any better.
    The best bet is to get a CPL like most others......this elimates most grey areas.

  10. #10
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by budlight View Post
    The best bet is to get a CPL like most others......this elimates most grey areas.
    Easier said than done for some of us.......
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  11. #11
    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by budlight View Post
    The best bet is to get a CPL like most others......this elimates most grey areas.
    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    Easier said than done for some of us.......
    Mi law is chalked full of nonsense in my opinion. Many miss the fact that Mi law has no penalty for a pd that won't issue a pp. All a pd need do is simply say no to someone they do not like for whatever reason. They are supposed to flag that person in the LEIN system, but do not have to. Once flagged a person is supposed to get a chance to appear before a MSP review board to explain what is their side of the story. Guess what this is almost unheard of. This effectively strips the person of their right to buy a pistol. As for Cpls it is even easier to quash those. All a pd has to do is send them a letter saying whatever... It is then upto the individual to mount a legal action at great expense usually to prove they are worthy of the rights they have been denied. Those who live in Wayne co. Which has one of the worst gun boards in my experience. You keep feeling safe with your little blue permission slip. Just hope you don't offend the wrong overlord or you could experience first hand what I'm talking about.
    Last edited by FreeInAZ; 12-08-2012 at 06:07 PM. Reason: Not directed at BL. Clarified that.
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    "You must be the change you wish to see in the world" by Mahatma Gandhi

    “Your beliefs become your thoughts. Your thoughts become your words. Your words become your actions. Your actions become your habits. Your habits become your values. Your values become your destiny.” by Mahatma Gandhi

  12. #12
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    Mi law is chalked full of nonsense in my opinion. BL misses the fact that Mi law has no penalty for a pd that won't issue a pp. All a pd need do is simply say no to someone they do not like for whatever reason. They are supposed to flag that person in the LEIN system, but do not have to. Once flagged a person is supposed to get a chance to appear before a MSP review board to explain what is their side of the story. Guess what this is almost unheard of. This effectively strips the person of their right to buy a pistol. As for Cpls it is even easier to quash those. All a pd has to do is send them a letter saying whatever... It is then upto the individual to mount a legal action at great expense usually to prove they are worthy of the rights they have been denied. BL you live in Wayne co. Which has one of the worst gun boards in my experience. You keep feeling safe with your little blue permission slip. Just hope you don't offend the wrong overlord or you could experience first hand what I'm talking about.
    BL was talking about the transportation of pistols and the whole "lawful purpose". Some of us cannot get a CPL due to age, minor infraction of the law, cost, etc.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  13. #13
    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    BL was talking about the transportation of pistols and the whole "lawful purpose". Some of us cannot get a CPL due to age, minor infraction of the law, cost, etc.
    I know. I was just pointing out to those who may not know it, just how fragile their rights are under mi law.
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    "You must be the change you wish to see in the world" by Mahatma Gandhi

    “Your beliefs become your thoughts. Your thoughts become your words. Your words become your actions. Your actions become your habits. Your habits become your values. Your values become your destiny.” by Mahatma Gandhi

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    Regular Member CrossPistols's Avatar
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    I thought we had Legislation to allow OC with out a CPL...The 2nd Amendment, and Article 1 Section 6?

  15. #15
    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Lightbulb

    Quote Originally Posted by CrossPistols View Post
    I thought we had Legislation to allow OC with out a CPL...The 2nd Amendment, and Article 1 Section 6?
    Yes & No. Under the current system as I was pointing out. Anyone can be denied a purchase permit for any reason by a local pd. There is no punishment for a pd. So the question is this? If a pd can deny you (illegally) and face no ramifications, is A1 Sect. 6 worth the paper it's written on in MI? Little hard to open carry a pistol you cannot buy under Mi law? On topic this bill clarifies things for officers and agents of the courts in Mi who are professional word smiths. So it is in my opinion a good first step.

    I now live in AZ. No purchase permits, No registration and constitutional carry. Guess what? Less gun crime than you have in MI. So that blows holes in the whole pp & registration stop gun crime arguments - in most rational people's minds.
    Last edited by FreeInAZ; 12-08-2012 at 08:11 PM. Reason: Typo
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "You must be the change you wish to see in the world" by Mahatma Gandhi

    “Your beliefs become your thoughts. Your thoughts become your words. Your words become your actions. Your actions become your habits. Your habits become your values. Your values become your destiny.” by Mahatma Gandhi

  16. #16
    Regular Member CrossPistols's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    Yes & No. Under the current system as I was pointing out. Anyone can be denied a purchase permit for any reason by a local pd. There is no punishment for a pd. So the question is this? If a pd can deny you (illegally) and face no ramifications, is A1 Sect. 6 worth the paper it's written on in MI? Little hard to open carry a pistol you cannot buy under Mi law? On topic this bill clarifies things for officers and agents of the courts in Mi who are professional word smiths. So it is in my opinion a good first step.

    I now live in AZ. No purchase permits, No registration and constitutional carry. Guess what? Less gun crime than you have in MI. So that blows holes in the whole pp & registration stop gun crime arguments - in most rational people's minds.
    The Law is only as good as the people who are willing to fight to make sure the Law is followed. Instead of getting a purchase permit, we should get Class Action Law suit against the people who pass these unconstitutional laws, or instead of buying a pistol we should boycott the Gun makers and sellers until they help us fight against the Politicians. After all it's the Manufacturers and sellers of Pistols who should have raged against purchase permits.

  17. #17
    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    You'll get my Mi relatives votes if you ever run for office Sir! Spot on.
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    "You must be the change you wish to see in the world" by Mahatma Gandhi

    “Your beliefs become your thoughts. Your thoughts become your words. Your words become your actions. Your actions become your habits. Your habits become your values. Your values become your destiny.” by Mahatma Gandhi

  18. #18
    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    passed the Senate 36-2 and is on its way to the governor
    If guns cause crime, all mine are defective- Ted Nugent

  19. #19
    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoiledFrogs View Post
    He's anti gun though, is he expected to sign?
    who the hell knows anymore
    If guns cause crime, all mine are defective- Ted Nugent

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