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Thread: Armed customers not "valued"?

  1. #1
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    Armed customers not "valued"?

    I frequently stop in and shop at Mary's Liquor in my home town of Tahlequah, Oklahoma. At approximately 3:00 CST today I stopped there again to buy some beer for a friend of mine and his birthday get together tonight. I have open carried at this location several times without any issues. In fact I have had positive experiences with all of the staff at night, one of which is a childhood friend of mine and she clearly stated "I rather have you here carrying, than all the drunk criminals that frequently steal from us. Maybe it deters them from lifting merchandise."

    Well today I didn't have as good as an experience as usual. I entered the establishment, grabbed my beer, and approached the counter. The cashier, of whom I did not catch his name, proceeds to check me out and throws in a "You know that it's about to be illegal for you to carry in any liquor store in Oklahoma?" and proceeded to tell me what he thought the law was, how it made him uncomfortable, and that this was a family establishment not some "dirty liquor store". I politely explained to him that what the law states about property owners having the right to post gun buster signs and that the law states you can not carry into an establishment that it's primary purpose is the "consumption" of alcohol and not the sale of alcohol. He continued to tell me that this "new law" was going into to place that would not allow carrying in liquor stores. He seemed rather nervous although I was being very civil and at no point raised my voice. I simply afforded him the opportunity to learn what the law actually said, since he apparently had no clue.

    I have a paper I have to write now or I would be going back there immediately with the statutes in hand, a copy of the letter to businesses, and the no guns = no money cards. Hopefully, he is still there when I am finished. This is the reason I OC in a small town, to advocate my rights as a law abiding licensed carrier, to attempt to deter the spread of misinformation, and possibly having the opportunity to enlighten the misinformed.



    The above was my post a few days ago in another thread. I followed through with that letter, it was calm, objective, and had the proper citations of the law. I also attached the letter to businesses and the Open Carry Presentation I downloaded from the OKOCA. I sent a physical copy and emailed a copy to them. Today I went back to Mary's Liquor and they had posted a gun buster sign reading: "To ensure the comfort and safety of our VALUED customers, we ask that you do not carry into our establishment."

    Mary's Liquor
    902 East Downing
    Tahlequah OK 74464
    (918) 456-4631

    manager@marysliquor.com
    Last edited by pickupm; 12-06-2012 at 07:05 PM.

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    I just received a email from the owner of Mary's (admin@marysliquor.com):

    Michael:

    Let me first start by saying thank you for your kind letter and all the backup material.* Youíre right to assume we had not taken the time to inform ourselves properly.* I had wrongly assumed the low-point beer provision as it relates to those businesses whose primary business is to sell alcoholic beverages would also include establishments that sell higher ABV beer, wine and liquor.* It strangely enough does not.* I therefore apologize for not having a sign posted with our reasons sooner.

    Iíve polled my employees and many customers over the past month.* The consensus across the board with the employees and to a high degree our customers, especially females, is that visible firearms on our premises frightens or intimidates them.* The predominant reason seems to be they do not know if the individual is legally carrying the firearm.* The employees have also stated that they do not wish to ask the customer either.* I should also say that even though I am a card-carrying member of the NRA, I tend to agree with them.* Our opinion may change about this topic in the future, but for now we will have a strict Ďno firearmsí policy.* I truly am sorry if this inconveniences you or means that you will be shopping elsewhere, but the majority has spoken and therefore we will respect their wishes.

    Again, I canít thank you enough for the well thought out letter and the professional way you presented this to us.* Iím disappointed that we did not show the same courtesy by creating and posting our policy on this topic in a more timely manner.

    Sincerely,

    Dirk

    dirk w. van veen | owner

    dirk@marysliquor.com

    mary's liquor mart
    902 east downing street
    tahlequah, ok 74464

    tel: 918.456.4631
    fax: 918.458.5515

  3. #3
    Regular Member Archerman99's Avatar
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    Wow that's really discouraging.
    Doesn't that kind of defeat the purpose of being a "card carrying member of the NRA"?
    Why give your money to an organization if you are just going to turn around and do the exact opposite of what they stand for.

    Anyway, hope you can find an establish that's not a blatant hypocrite.

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    Card carrying NRA member huh....not a libertarian obviously....

    He polled his employees? I don't poll my subordinates ...

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    Regular Member okiebryan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pickupm View Post
    I just received a email from the owner of Mary's (admin@marysliquor.com):

    Michael:

    Let me first start by saying thank you for your kind letter and all the backup material.* Youíre right to assume we had not taken the time to inform ourselves properly.* I had wrongly assumed the low-point beer provision as it relates to those businesses whose primary business is to sell alcoholic beverages would also include establishments that sell higher ABV beer, wine and liquor.* It strangely enough does not.* I therefore apologize for not having a sign posted with our reasons sooner.

    Iíve polled my employees and many customers over the past month.* The consensus across the board with the employees and to a high degree our customers, especially females, is that visible firearms on our premises frightens or intimidates them.* The predominant reason seems to be they do not know if the individual is legally carrying the firearm.* The employees have also stated that they do not wish to ask the customer either.* I should also say that even though I am a card-carrying member of the NRA, I tend to agree with them.* Our opinion may change about this topic in the future, but for now we will have a strict Ďno firearmsí policy.* I truly am sorry if this inconveniences you or means that you will be shopping elsewhere, but the majority has spoken and therefore we will respect their wishes.

    Again, I canít thank you enough for the well thought out letter and the professional way you presented this to us.* Iím disappointed that we did not show the same courtesy by creating and posting our policy on this topic in a more timely manner.

    Sincerely,

    Dirk

    dirk w. van veen | owner

    dirk@marysliquor.com

    mary's liquor mart
    902 east downing street
    tahlequah, ok 74464

    tel: 918.456.4631
    fax: 918.458.5515
    You might try writing him again and reminding him that concealed carry has been legal since 1995. Many many customers have likely concealed and carried in his store without incident. Ask him to consider allowing what he has always allowed, and to ban open carry only. At least then he's not telling 1)his customers who carry that their business isn't wanted, and 2) criminals that this is a good place to rob.

    Sometimes we just have to accept a partial win in the face of a complete loss.

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    Yeah I kind of thought the same thing about him being hypocritical. I think he was blowing smoke about polling people for a month because in his own words he thought the law prohibited carry in his establishment until I wrote that letter. He's a bad liar.

  7. #7
    Regular Member Glock 1st fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pickupm View Post
    Yeah I kind of thought the same thing about him being hypocritical. I think he was blowing smoke about polling people for a month because in his own words he thought the law prohibited carry in his establishment until I wrote that letter. He's a bad liar.
    Well he is a business owner. As a business owner one is put in a bad place of do you make those who are uncomfortable with firearms feel welcome with a gun buster sign or do you you scare them off allowing firearms.

    We are hard on them because we view them as violating our rights but then the other half are hard on them by making them feel unwelcome.

    I encourage everyone to stay as calm as this gentleman did and dont make a scene simply allow the cards to land where they may and in time people will begin to feel more comfortable just like they did with Concealed carry.

  8. #8
    Regular Member conandan's Avatar
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    As the business owner he has the right to say no guns in his business. But he should also understand by posting a gun buster sign he is telling any would be robber, hey nobody in here is armed take what you want. My opinion is if a business does not allow lawful carry I will not spend my money there. And if they want to make there business an easy target for a criminal because guns make the customers uncomfortable. How uncomfortable will they be if an armed robber comes in and threatens there lives.

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    Quote Originally Posted by conandan View Post
    As the business owner he has the right to say no guns in his business. But he should also understand by posting a gun buster sign he is telling any would be robber, hey nobody in here is armed take what you want. My opinion is if a business does not allow lawful carry I will not spend my money there. And if they want to make there business an easy target for a criminal because guns make the customers uncomfortable. How uncomfortable will they be if an armed robber comes in and threatens there lives.
    Very true! Try asking a criminal to put his gun in the car and let me know how it works

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    Well, now I know were NOT to buy alcohol when I'm in Oklahoma! Click image for larger version. 

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    Lower the crime rate by lowering the criminal survival rate!
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by pickupm View Post
    I just received a email from the owner of Mary's (admin@marysliquor.com):

    Michael:

    Let me first start by saying thank you for your kind letter and all the backup material.* Youíre right to assume we had not taken the time to inform ourselves properly.* I had wrongly assumed the low-point beer provision as it relates to those businesses whose primary business is to sell alcoholic beverages would also include establishments that sell higher ABV beer, wine and liquor.* It strangely enough does not.* I therefore apologize for not having a sign posted with our reasons sooner.

    Iíve polled my employees and many customers over the past month.* The consensus across the board with the employees and to a high degree our customers, especially females, is that visible firearms on our premises frightens or intimidates them.* The predominant reason seems to be they do not know if the individual is legally carrying the firearm.* The employees have also stated that they do not wish to ask the customer either.* I should also say that even though I am a card-carrying member of the NRA, I tend to agree with them.* Our opinion may change about this topic in the future, but for now we will have a strict Ďno firearmsí policy.* I truly am sorry if this inconveniences you or means that you will be shopping elsewhere, but the majority has spoken and therefore we will respect their wishes.

    Again, I canít thank you enough for the well thought out letter and the professional way you presented this to us.* Iím disappointed that we did not show the same courtesy by creating and posting our policy on this topic in a more timely manner.

    Sincerely,

    Dirk

    dirk w. van veen | owner

    dirk@marysliquor.com

    mary's liquor mart
    902 east downing street
    tahlequah, ok 74464

    tel: 918.456.4631
    fax: 918.458.5515
    Might also let him know that in 2006 the FBI did a study and it found that bad guys don't open carry....they don't want the attention. That and they generally don't use holsters either.
    I am not a lawyer and nothing I say should be accepted as legal advice

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archerman99 View Post
    Wow that's really discouraging.
    Doesn't that kind of defeat the purpose of being a "card carrying member of the NRA"?
    Why give your money to an organization if you are just going to turn around and do the exact opposite of what they stand for.

    Anyway, hope you can find an establish that's not a blatant hypocrite.
    Agreed.....just find a different place and spend your money there...but be sure to let folks know "who is valued and who isnt" at this establishment...

  13. #13
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    Technically he desires his customers to be unarmed, he does not explicitly state that his employees or the ownership are not to be armed. Though, his relating that his employees "fear OC" does seem to indicate that his employees are likely to be not armed. But, it should not be stated that the employees/ownership are not armed. The call to prohibit OC is a fair compromise. Easily argued due to the time interval between CCW becoming lawful and today. What the employees or customers do not know can not be feared.

    I find the "criminals won't obey" argument to be ineffective. A business owner must perceive of a business benefit to be persuaded.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  14. #14
    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pickupm View Post
    I just received a email from the owner of Mary's (admin@marysliquor.com):

    Michael:

    Let me first start by saying thank you for your kind letter and all the backup material.* Youíre right to assume we had not taken the time to inform ourselves properly.* I had wrongly assumed the low-point beer provision as it relates to those businesses whose primary business is to sell alcoholic beverages would also include establishments that sell higher ABV beer, wine and liquor.* It strangely enough does not.* I therefore apologize for not having a sign posted with our reasons sooner.

    Iíve polled my employees and many customers over the past month.* The consensus across the board with the employees and to a high degree our customers, especially females, is that visible firearms on our premises frightens or intimidates them.* The predominant reason seems to be they do not know if the individual is legally carrying the firearm.* The employees have also stated that they do not wish to ask the customer either.* I should also say that even though I am a card-carrying member of the NRA, I tend to agree with them.* Our opinion may change about this topic in the future, but for now we will have a strict Ďno firearmsí policy.* I truly am sorry if this inconveniences you or means that you will be shopping elsewhere, but the majority has spoken and therefore we will respect their wishes.

    Again, I canít thank you enough for the well thought out letter and the professional way you presented this to us.* Iím disappointed that we did not show the same courtesy by creating and posting our policy on this topic in a more timely manner.

    Sincerely,

    Dirk

    dirk w. van veen | owner

    dirk@marysliquor.com

    mary's liquor mart
    902 east downing street
    tahlequah, ok 74464

    tel: 918.456.4631
    fax: 918.458.5515
    I smell BS...ask him if they are just as afraid if a LEO walks in armed? Then ask him if not, why does a uniform and a badge make any difference...criminals do not OC...quote the FBI study.

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    Be sure to add this to http://friendorfoe.us

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    Regular Member Griz's Avatar
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    Vote with your feet, brother.

    When I'm in town, always been partial to Amy's on 23rd. Dunno how they feed about OC, tho.

  17. #17
    Regular Member Keylock's Avatar
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    Disappointing to hear this business owner is an unamerican anticonstitutionalist.

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    It amazes me how some people think it's OK to vote on civil rights, or make their opinion affect anyone but themselves.
    If they did the same with religion or skin color people would be outraged.

    Quote Originally Posted by hrdware
    Might also let him know that in 2006 the FBI did a study and it found that bad guys don't open carry... they don't want the attention. That and they generally don't use holsters either.
    PDFs available here.
    And it's chapter 4 which says, in part:
    None of the offenders regularly carried their handguns in a holster; one offender, however, occasionally wore a holster when robbing banks.
    In fact, of the felons interviewed, only 1 carried the pistol outside his clothing.
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  19. #19
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Just sent an email to the owner.
    It got a little long, but I had lots of reasons his reasoning wasn't sound.
    We'll see what happens.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    Just sent an email to the owner.
    It got a little long, but I had lots of reasons his reasoning wasn't sound.
    We'll see what happens.


    Thank you very much. Any additional letters that are calm, articulate, and reasonable are welcome. Maybe with your help this "card carrying NRA member" will see that his decision is unreasonable.

  21. #21
    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    I sent one right after reading this.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie View Post
    I sent one right after reading this.
    Thank you very much!

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keylock View Post
    Disappointing to hear this business owner is an unamerican anticonstitutionalist.
    I know right? How dare this D-bag exercise HIS rights at the Same time we are exercising ours! The nerve of some people.

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